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Spokes snapping / Rebuild or new wheel.



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 16th 20, 02:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sock Puppet
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Posts: 12
Default Spokes snapping / Rebuild or new wheel.

I have a cheap adventure bike, just over a couple of years old.

After about a year the back wheel spokes started breaking, so I rebuilt
it in January with cheap 10 GBP spokes off ebay. Now after only 5000km
I've had a couple of spokes go again, from fatigue.

I'm surprised the spokes would go so quickly. Is it likely that buying
bargain basement spokes was a dumb thing to do and I should have bought
more expensive double butted spokes. Or is it possible there is
something wrong with the rim or hub.

So now I'm thinking of rebuilding again with better spokes and a new hub
(needed anyway). Would I be better buying a new wheel? This is my first
disk brake bike, I assume the rims are effectively immortal.


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  #2  
Old August 16th 20, 06:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
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Posts: 1,563
Default Spokes snapping / Rebuild or new wheel.

On 16/08/2020 15:58, Sock Puppet wrote:
I have a cheap adventure bike, just over a couple of years old.

After about a year the back wheel spokes started breaking, so I rebuilt
it in January with cheap 10 GBP spokes off ebay. Now after only 5000km
I've had a couple of spokes go again, from fatigue.

I'm surprised the spokes would go so quickly. Is it likely that buying
bargain basement spokes was a dumb thing to do and I should have bought
more expensive double butted spokes. Or is it possible there is
something wrong with the rim or hub.

So now I'm thinking of rebuilding again with better spokes and a new hub
(needed anyway). Would I be better buying a new wheel? This is my first
disk brake bike, I assume the rims are effectively immortal.


Many bikes run for years on cheaper spokes than that so something is
askew in the build. You didn't say where they went. but a wheel I built
had 3 spokes go at the hub until I detensioned and retensioned it. It
was over tensioned from the start, one of the reasons I don't quite
subscribe to Jobsts theory you can't really over tension a wheel. I
think you can :-(

My tuppence worth. Back them off 1/2 a turn and even them up.
  #3  
Old August 16th 20, 07:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Spokes snapping / Rebuild or new wheel.

On 8/16/2020 8:58 AM, Sock Puppet wrote:
I have a cheap adventure bike, just over a couple of years old.

After about a year the back wheel spokes started breaking,
so I rebuilt it in January with cheap 10 GBP spokes off
ebay. Now after only 5000km I've had a couple of spokes go
again, from fatigue.

I'm surprised the spokes would go so quickly. Is it likely
that buying bargain basement spokes was a dumb thing to do
and I should have bought more expensive double butted
spokes. Or is it possible there is something wrong with the
rim or hub.

So now I'm thinking of rebuilding again with better spokes
and a new hub (needed anyway). Would I be better buying a
new wheel? This is my first disk brake bike, I assume the
rims are effectively immortal.



The differences between the worst spokes available and the
best is a much smaller range than a hasty sloppy build vs a
careful job.

Did you lubricate your nipple threads? With what? Are you
using regular plated brass nipples or those demon droppings
in aluminum? Did you build with drive spokes inside? How
many spokes and what cross pattern?

Did you observe the rim manufacturer's tension specification?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #4  
Old August 17th 20, 04:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 840
Default Spokes snapping / Rebuild or new wheel.

On 8/16/2020 10:07 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 16/08/2020 15:58, Sock Puppet wrote:
I have a cheap adventure bike, just over a couple of years old.

After about a year the back wheel spokes started breaking, so I
rebuilt it in January with cheap 10 GBP spokes off ebay. Now after
only 5000km I've had a couple of spokes go again, from fatigue.

I'm surprised the spokes would go so quickly. Is it likely that buying
bargain basement spokes was a dumb thing to do and I should have
bought more expensive double butted spokes. Or is it possible there is
something wrong with the rim or hub.

So now I'm thinking of rebuilding again with better spokes and a new
hub (needed anyway). Would I be better buying a new wheel? This is my
first disk brake bike, I assume the rims are effectively immortal.


Many bikes run for years on cheaper spokes than that so something is
askew in the build.Â* You didn't say where they went. but a wheel I built
had 3 spokes go at the hub until I detensioned and retensioned it.Â* It
was over tensioned from the start, one of the reasons I don't quite
subscribe to Jobsts theory you can't really over tension a wheel.Â* I
think you can :-(

My tuppence worth.Â* Back them off 1/2 a turn and even them up.


First, what Andy and Tosspot said - build is more likely the culprit
than spokes.

I would be much more suspicious of under tensioned spokes, that's a more
common mistake, and can explain the symptoms.

I'm assuming you (the O.P.) don't have a tensiometer - if you do, use
it, but if not, find a well-built wheel with similar gauge spokes and
compare tension. If the bad wheel is severely under-tensioned (or
over), you should be able to feel the difference by hand.
["Old, well-used and no spoke breakage" is usually a good proxy for
"well-built," though disk wheels may be less forgiving that rim brake
wheels.]

Normally, the non-drive-side will be the one that's undertensioned.

Next, pluck each spoke, working one side at a time. Are the tones
reasonably even? (within a few semi-tones if you're musical)? If not,
there's a likely culprit. Note the tensions will be different on the
two sides, but should be consistent among the spokes on each side.

Read up on stress-relieving also - Google is your friend, look for
Sheldon Brown or Jobst Brandt's pronouncements. While many electrons
have been spilt arguing about it, nobody thinks it hurts, and it's quick
and easy to do.

Mark J.
  #5  
Old August 17th 20, 06:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,563
Default Spokes snapping / Rebuild or new wheel.

On 17/08/2020 05:39, Mark J. wrote:

snip

Read up on stress-relieving also - Google is your friend, look for
Sheldon Brown or Jobst Brandt's pronouncements.Â* While many electrons
have been spilt arguing about it, nobody thinks it hurts, and it's quick
and easy to do.


Good advice. There is a *lot* of **** written about wheel builds, it's
almost as bad as chain lubricant, but like chain lubricant, the basics
are simple. Eliminate them before looking for the complex.

Marks point about comparing it to a known good build is very good if you
don't have a tensiometer. Btw, does anybody think this;

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07X3CMS6M

Is in anyway superior to this;

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B089W4SP89

My inner geek is telling me it is and should be purchased as it will
make my wheels lighter, stronger, more rigid and I ll turn into a
cycling God overnight. *AND* for 20 bucks more it's available in red!
  #6  
Old August 17th 20, 06:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Spokes snapping / Rebuild or new wheel.

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:14:16 +0200, Tosspot
wrote:

On 17/08/2020 05:39, Mark J. wrote:

snip

Read up on stress-relieving also - Google is your friend, look for
Sheldon Brown or Jobst Brandt's pronouncements.* While many electrons
have been spilt arguing about it, nobody thinks it hurts, and it's quick
and easy to do.


Good advice. There is a *lot* of **** written about wheel builds, it's
almost as bad as chain lubricant, but like chain lubricant, the basics
are simple. Eliminate them before looking for the complex.

Marks point about comparing it to a known good build is very good if you
don't have a tensiometer. Btw, does anybody think this;

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07X3CMS6M

Is in anyway superior to this;

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B089W4SP89

My inner geek is telling me it is and should be purchased as it will
make my wheels lighter, stronger, more rigid and I ll turn into a
cycling God overnight. *AND* for 20 bucks more it's available in red!


In theory the super deluxe 45 Euro device is "better" but in practice
I'm not so sure given that people even check the tightness of spokes
by playing them like a piano string. I think I remember someone here
even designating the tone of the spoke - middle 'C' or some such tone
:-)
See https://www.sheldonbrown.com/spoke-pitch.html
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #7  
Old August 17th 20, 10:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sock Puppet
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Spokes snapping / Rebuild or new wheel.

On 16/08/2020 18:07, Tosspot wrote:
On 16/08/2020 15:58, Sock Puppet wrote:
I have a cheap adventure bike, just over a couple of years old.

After about a year the back wheel spokes started breaking, so I
rebuilt it in January with cheap 10 GBP spokes off ebay. Now after
only 5000km I've had a couple of spokes go again, from fatigue.

I'm surprised the spokes would go so quickly. Is it likely that buying
bargain basement spokes was a dumb thing to do and I should have
bought more expensive double butted spokes. Or is it possible there is
something wrong with the rim or hub.

So now I'm thinking of rebuilding again with better spokes and a new
hub (needed anyway). Would I be better buying a new wheel? This is my
first disk brake bike, I assume the rims are effectively immortal.


Many bikes run for years on cheaper spokes than that so something is
askew in the build.


You can buy cheaper spokes? 10 quid for 36 seemed bargain basement to
me. Delivery was from China. I see I actually got them off Amazon
Marketplace, not ebay, BIKECO. I actually paid 9.39 GBP in December.
They are now 15.39. Covid bike inflation! Paying that much for spokes +
hub is very quickly getting to the price of a cheap new wheel.


You didn't say where they went. but a wheel I built
had 3 spokes go at the hub until I detensioned and retensioned it.


They went at the hub/elbow. My spokes always go at the elbow. Whatever I
do wrong I'm consistent. When the wheel was new, before I rebuilt it,
they all went at the elbow too.

Â* It
was over tensioned from the start, one of the reasons I don't quite
subscribe to Jobsts theory you can't really over tension a wheel.Â* I
think you can :-(


Tension was on the high side, the ghost of Jobst lives on. Done with
something almost identical to the cheap tensiometer mentioned later in
the thread. Building the wheel I concentrated on round and even tension,
rather than perfect true. Without rim brakes true didn't seem so important.

The spokes haven't worked lose.

My tuppence worth.Â* Back them off 1/2 a turn and even them up.


Yeah, I don't think I did that, I did do the Jobst trick of stress
relief with a big spanner.
  #8  
Old August 17th 20, 10:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sock Puppet
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Spokes snapping / Rebuild or new wheel.

On 16/08/2020 19:01, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/16/2020 8:58 AM, Sock Puppet wrote:
I have a cheap adventure bike, just over a couple of years old.

After about a year the back wheel spokes started breaking,
so I rebuilt it in January with cheap 10 GBP spokes off
ebay. Now after only 5000km I've had a couple of spokes go
again, from fatigue.

I'm surprised the spokes would go so quickly. Is it likely
that buying bargain basement spokes was a dumb thing to do
and I should have bought more expensive double butted
spokes. Or is it possible there is something wrong with the
rim or hub.

So now I'm thinking of rebuilding again with better spokes
and a new hub (needed anyway). Would I be better buying a
new wheel? This is my first disk brake bike, I assume the
rims are effectively immortal.



The differences between the worst spokes available and the best is a
much smaller range than a hasty sloppy build vs a careful job.


Yeah, you are probably right. I hadn't built a wheel for 15 years. I
just seem to remember double butted spokes being much more reliable.
Maybe, more forgiving of a crap workman.

Did you lubricate your nipple threads? With what?Â* Are you using regular
plated brass nipples or those demon droppings in aluminum? Did you build
with drive spokes inside? How many spokes and what cross pattern?


Lubricant standard lithium grease, steel nipples, 32 spokes, 3 cross.

Did you observe the rim manufacturer's tension specification?


lol! no. I assumed rim manufacturers specs where a maximum, above which
you might rip through the eyelet.


  #9  
Old August 17th 20, 02:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Spokes snapping / Rebuild or new wheel.

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 2:36:12 AM UTC-7, Sock Puppet wrote:
On 16/08/2020 19:01, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/16/2020 8:58 AM, Sock Puppet wrote:
I have a cheap adventure bike, just over a couple of years old.

After about a year the back wheel spokes started breaking,
so I rebuilt it in January with cheap 10 GBP spokes off
ebay. Now after only 5000km I've had a couple of spokes go
again, from fatigue.

I'm surprised the spokes would go so quickly. Is it likely
that buying bargain basement spokes was a dumb thing to do
and I should have bought more expensive double butted
spokes. Or is it possible there is something wrong with the
rim or hub.

So now I'm thinking of rebuilding again with better spokes
and a new hub (needed anyway). Would I be better buying a
new wheel? This is my first disk brake bike, I assume the
rims are effectively immortal.



The differences between the worst spokes available and the best is a
much smaller range than a hasty sloppy build vs a careful job.


Yeah, you are probably right. I hadn't built a wheel for 15 years. I
just seem to remember double butted spokes being much more reliable.
Maybe, more forgiving of a crap workman.

Did you lubricate your nipple threads? With what?Â* Are you using regular
plated brass nipples or those demon droppings in aluminum? Did you build
with drive spokes inside? How many spokes and what cross pattern?


Lubricant standard lithium grease, steel nipples, 32 spokes, 3 cross.

Did you observe the rim manufacturer's tension specification?


lol! no. I assumed rim manufacturers specs where a maximum, above which
you might rip through the eyelet.


To back up a bit, yes you can have problems with rims, hubs and spokes. I've had all of those, although the spoke issue was well known and design specific (elongated DT J-bends and way back in the early '70s and prior, just crappy spokes). I've had OE wheels with rims that were nipple lathes, but then you get broken nipples and not broken spokes, and those OE wheels usually have aluminum nipples that are prone to breaking anyway. If you have plated brass nipples, that typically will not happen. You can have hub flanges that are too thin or that have sharp holes or other problems -- but assuming proper thickness, most flanges are made out of aluminum and will take a proper shape. Straight gauge and DB are both reliable if well made, and the benefit of DB is lower weight and higher elasticity so the spoke stretches more at the same tension making it less likely to go slack when loaded/compressed. These days, you have to go to really cheap off-brands to get spoke breakage on a well built wheel -- but it can happen. And with enough fatigue, you can break the best spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #10  
Old August 17th 20, 09:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 840
Default Spokes snapping / Rebuild or new wheel.

On 8/17/2020 2:24 AM, Sock Puppet wrote:
On 16/08/2020 18:07, Tosspot wrote:
On 16/08/2020 15:58, Sock Puppet wrote:
I have a cheap adventure bike, just over a couple of years old.

After about a year the back wheel spokes started breaking, so I
rebuilt it in January with cheap 10 GBP spokes off ebay. Now after
only 5000km I've had a couple of spokes go again, from fatigue.

I'm surprised the spokes would go so quickly. Is it likely that
buying bargain basement spokes was a dumb thing to do and I should
have bought more expensive double butted spokes. Or is it possible
there is something wrong with the rim or hub.

So now I'm thinking of rebuilding again with better spokes and a new
hub (needed anyway). Would I be better buying a new wheel? This is my
first disk brake bike, I assume the rims are effectively immortal.


Many bikes run for years on cheaper spokes than that so something is
askew in the build.


You can buy cheaper spokes? 10 quid for 36 seemed bargain basement to
me. Delivery was from China. I see I actually got them off Amazon
Marketplace, not ebay, BIKECO. I actually paid 9.39 GBP in December.
They are now 15.39. Covid bike inflation! Paying that much for spokes +
hub is very quickly getting to the price of a cheap new wheel.


You didn't say where they went. but a wheel I built had 3 spokes go at
the hub until I detensioned and retensioned it.


They went at the hub/elbow. My spokes always go at the elbow. Whatever I
do wrong I'm consistent. When the wheel was new, before I rebuilt it,
they all went at the elbow too.

Â* It was over tensioned from the start, one of the reasons I don't
quite subscribe to Jobsts theory you can't really over tension a
wheel.Â* I think you can :-(


Tension was on the high side, the ghost of Jobst lives on. Done with
something almost identical to the cheap tensiometer mentioned later in
the thread. Building the wheel I concentrated on round and even tension,
rather than perfect true. Without rim brakes true didn't seem so important.

The spokes haven't worked lose.

My tuppence worth.Â* Back them off 1/2 a turn and even them up.


Yeah, I don't think I did that, I did do the Jobst trick of stress
relief with a big spanner.


Sounds like you've covered/avoided all of the most common mistakes.
Even and (reasonably) high tension will solve most problems. Stress
relieving covers another bunch of problems.

Maybe it /was/ the spokes. Are the broken ones drive-side or
non-drive-side?

Mark J.
 




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