Di2 Setup Problem

On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 6:10:43 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 11:05:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 7:15:04 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 9:55:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op vrijdag 28 augustus 2020 om 18:25:14 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 8:55:59 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2020 at 3:07:34 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2020 at 11:51:52 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 10:30:39 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I installed Di2 on my Colnago. I couldn't get any response from the battery so I looked inside the seat tube and sure enough it was disconnected. I figured out a way to fish the wire out (take a shifter outer, put an inner in and bend it back on itself and tape it to the outer. This gives you a fairly solid way to reach down into the seat tube and put the loop around the wire and retrieve it.).

After I reconnected it, there was still no response from the underbar controller. (EW90-B) So I plugged the charger in and it went into full charge. Apparently the new internal battery was discharged. It required about an hour to charge and then would give a green light when the test button was pushed. So then I opened the Shimano E-tube software and checked the software updates and then tried to recognize everything.

Well, it recognized the front and rear derailleurs, the underbar controller and the "main controller" (battery).

What it would NOT recognize is the shift levers. Now these are brand new so it is highly unlikely that they are defective in any way and it would be highly unlikely that that both levers would be so.

Does anyone have any ideas? My sole choice is that the underbar controller is faulty and so I have ordered a new one. Does anyone have a better suggestion? I sort of remember that the man who put my Emonda Ultegra Di2 together said something along the same lines when I picked it up.. Is there so sort of trick such as holding a lever on or something?
OK, I don't know why my posting yesterday didn't post but I'll clear the problem up. If you use the Shimano wiring tool it will not properly insert the wire into the levers using the supposed "correct" round side of the tool. In fact it is probably easier to insert the wire by hand, move it as far forward as you can and then using the opposite side of the tool that is supposed to be used to pull wires out push the connector in. It is difficult to feel it "click" into place so you just have to do your best and then using the Shimano program try and recognize the levers. If it recognizes everything else and you have no levers showing it is most likely because the connection hasn't been made.

Also, some internal batteries have a very bad connector on them and one of the tricks is to push the copper slide in and then try to feel a "click" when you use the Shimano wiring tool. If you can push it in by hand and/or cannot feel a solid click, you should probably replace the battery with another - ALWAYS buy new batteries since they are rated for maximum full number of charges.

There are LOTS of "new" levers on the market. But most of them are the older 9050's. These were built 10 years ago and the firmware needs to be updated with occurs when you're using the charging box and e-tube software. The latest levers (I think they are 9160's) have an additional switch on the top of the lever. If you have a bluetooth unit installed in-line with the rest of the wiring you can set these switches up to do a number of things. For one thing you could use them to change pages on your Garmin Edge or Wahoo. Or you can set them up so that one switch shifts only up and the other only down. You CAN already set up any of the 9000's to do all shifting from the right lever and it will calculate the gear ratios so that you always have the next higher of lower gear regardless of whether or not it has to shift the chain rings.

I prefer it to act like a manual shifter at the moment since you have to get used to the way it shifts into the big ring from the small. You have to semi-pause your pedaling. or at least pedal very lightly until it shifts. It may not act that way if you have pro-gears like a 53-39 or 42.

So, the bottom line is that if it recognizes most of the stuff, any missing stuff is probably nothing more than a faulty connection. And ALL of the 105, Ultegra or Dura Ace stuff is interchangeable so it is difficult to find stuff that doesn't interchange.
Although I never had any problem with a connector and I find the feedback quite OK when the connector snaps in place I agree that the tool is pretty useless especially for the shifter connector. Most op the time I just plug it in or pull it out by hand.

Lou
The stuff that is out in the open like the derailleurs or the battery can be snapped in place by hand but you cannot do that with the levers and they are an absolute pain-in-the-ass connection. Now there are THREE plugs on the levers. Shimano chat sort of indicated to me that the bottom two are for extraneous switches like the TT bars or the Sprint switches. But a local mechanic said that the top two would work for the levers and the bottom one for sprint switches which are normally near the center of the handlebars so that you have a more aero position since the pros are hitting 40 mph in a sprint. I sprinted for a light one time and hit 36 mph so that isn't an exaggeration. And that particular light is flat ground and normally has a side wind.

Shimano chat insisted that I wasn't getting the connection made but I was sure I was. But it turned out he was correct and it was just because I was trying to use the tool the way it was designed. Shimano really has to change the lever case molding so that the tool works properly.
While waiting for the chain breaker to come I was looking at my left shifter and it is working opposite from my other one - that is the larger lever is shifting the front derailleur into the big ring and the smaller checked lever into the small ring.

I believe that when I was initially setting it up there was that option to reverse the operation of the levers but do not remember clearly. Does anyone know exactly how you put these back to normal?
This is normal, just like the mechanical one. Big lever-big ring, small lever make the chain drop to the little ring. What has the right shifter to do with the left shifter? Shimano once tried to make it 'logical' on their ATB groupsets, but that was not a succes. Normal is what you used to.

Lou
On the right lever if you push the inside switch you go to a larger cog. On the left side of my Emond if you push the inside switch it goes to a larger ring.

While the right lever works the same on my Colnago, the left lever operates opposite. So if you consider the left on the Colnago "normal" the Emonda which was setup by a shop is reversed. Naturally I want them both to work the same in any case.
I have three bikes with Di2 shifting. All three bikes are set up with the same Shimano out of the box shifting logic. Right = RD (duh..): inner switch = bigger gear (smaller cog), outer switch = smaller gear (larger cog). Left = FD: inner switch = small chainring, outer switch = big chainring.
I hope we mean the same with inner switch. The inner switch is the switch closest to the handlebar if you look from the side at the shifter.
If someone made it operate otherwise you have to change it back in the E-tube app.
Tomorrow I'm riding again but on Monday I'll bring the Emonda in the computer room and see if I can figure out how to reverse the switches so they act like the ones on the Colnago. And I'm sure that the ones on the Lemond are going to act like the Colnago since they had been setup by team CCC.
Now this is REALLY weird. Setting the levers for right side and left side that they mean by "up" and "down" is OPPOSITE from one side to the other. I've been fiddling around with it here for a hour and finally got the large (back) switch finally to go into the big ring with the back lever and into the larger cog with the back lever by using exactly opposite setting on each side. I'll mess around with it again tomorrow but after I get it working the levers will work similar to a manual lever. But WHY the hell would UP mean different for the left and right lever?

On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 4:10:54 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 6:10:43 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 11:05:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 7:15:04 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 9:55:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op vrijdag 28 augustus 2020 om 18:25:14 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 8:55:59 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2020 at 3:07:34 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2020 at 11:51:52 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 10:30:39 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I installed Di2 on my Colnago. I couldn't get any response from the battery so I looked inside the seat tube and sure enough it was disconnected. I figured out a way to fish the wire out (take a shifter outer, put an inner in and bend it back on itself and tape it to the outer. This gives you a fairly solid way to reach down into the seat tube and put the loop around the wire and retrieve it.).

After I reconnected it, there was still no response from the underbar controller. (EW90-B) So I plugged the charger in and it went into full charge. Apparently the new internal battery was discharged. It required about an hour to charge and then would give a green light when the test button was pushed. So then I opened the Shimano E-tube software and checked the software updates and then tried to recognize everything.

Well, it recognized the front and rear derailleurs, the underbar controller and the "main controller" (battery).

What it would NOT recognize is the shift levers. Now these are brand new so it is highly unlikely that they are defective in any way and it would be highly unlikely that that both levers would be so.

Does anyone have any ideas? My sole choice is that the underbar controller is faulty and so I have ordered a new one. Does anyone have a better suggestion? I sort of remember that the man who put my Emonda Ultegra Di2 together said something along the same lines when I picked it up. Is there so sort of trick such as holding a lever on or something?
OK, I don't know why my posting yesterday didn't post but I'll clear the problem up. If you use the Shimano wiring tool it will not properly insert the wire into the levers using the supposed "correct" round side of the tool. In fact it is probably easier to insert the wire by hand, move it as far forward as you can and then using the opposite side of the tool that is supposed to be used to pull wires out push the connector in. It is difficult to feel it "click" into place so you just have to do your best and then using the Shimano program try and recognize the levers. If it recognizes everything else and you have no levers showing it is most likely because the connection hasn't been made.

Also, some internal batteries have a very bad connector on them and one of the tricks is to push the copper slide in and then try to feel a "click" when you use the Shimano wiring tool. If you can push it in by hand and/or cannot feel a solid click, you should probably replace the battery with another - ALWAYS buy new batteries since they are rated for maximum full number of charges.

There are LOTS of "new" levers on the market. But most of them are the older 9050's. These were built 10 years ago and the firmware needs to be updated with occurs when you're using the charging box and e-tube software. The latest levers (I think they are 9160's) have an additional switch on the top of the lever. If you have a bluetooth unit installed in-line with the rest of the wiring you can set these switches up to do a number of things. For one thing you could use them to change pages on your Garmin Edge or Wahoo. Or you can set them up so that one switch shifts only up and the other only down. You CAN already set up any of the 9000's to do all shifting from the right lever and it will calculate the gear ratios so that you always have the next higher of lower gear regardless of whether or not it has to shift the chain rings.

I prefer it to act like a manual shifter at the moment since you have to get used to the way it shifts into the big ring from the small. You have to semi-pause your pedaling. or at least pedal very lightly until it shifts. It may not act that way if you have pro-gears like a 53-39 or 42.

So, the bottom line is that if it recognizes most of the stuff, any missing stuff is probably nothing more than a faulty connection. And ALL of the 105, Ultegra or Dura Ace stuff is interchangeable so it is difficult to find stuff that doesn't interchange.
Although I never had any problem with a connector and I find the feedback quite OK when the connector snaps in place I agree that the tool is pretty useless especially for the shifter connector. Most op the time I just plug it in or pull it out by hand.

Lou
The stuff that is out in the open like the derailleurs or the battery can be snapped in place by hand but you cannot do that with the levers and they are an absolute pain-in-the-ass connection. Now there are THREE plugs on the levers. Shimano chat sort of indicated to me that the bottom two are for extraneous switches like the TT bars or the Sprint switches. But a local mechanic said that the top two would work for the levers and the bottom one for sprint switches which are normally near the center of the handlebars so that you have a more aero position since the pros are hitting 40 mph in a sprint. I sprinted for a light one time and hit 36 mph so that isn't an exaggeration. And that particular light is flat ground and normally has a side wind.

Shimano chat insisted that I wasn't getting the connection made but I was sure I was. But it turned out he was correct and it was just because I was trying to use the tool the way it was designed. Shimano really has to change the lever case molding so that the tool works properly.
While waiting for the chain breaker to come I was looking at my left shifter and it is working opposite from my other one - that is the larger lever is shifting the front derailleur into the big ring and the smaller checked lever into the small ring.

I believe that when I was initially setting it up there was that option to reverse the operation of the levers but do not remember clearly.. Does anyone know exactly how you put these back to normal?
This is normal, just like the mechanical one. Big lever-big ring, small lever make the chain drop to the little ring. What has the right shifter to do with the left shifter? Shimano once tried to make it 'logical' on their ATB groupsets, but that was not a succes. Normal is what you used to.

Lou
On the right lever if you push the inside switch you go to a larger cog. On the left side of my Emond if you push the inside switch it goes to a larger ring.

While the right lever works the same on my Colnago, the left lever operates opposite. So if you consider the left on the Colnago "normal" the Emonda which was setup by a shop is reversed. Naturally I want them both to work the same in any case.
I have three bikes with Di2 shifting. All three bikes are set up with the same Shimano out of the box shifting logic. Right = RD (duh..): inner switch = bigger gear (smaller cog), outer switch = smaller gear (larger cog). Left = FD: inner switch = small chainring, outer switch = big chainring.
I hope we mean the same with inner switch. The inner switch is the switch closest to the handlebar if you look from the side at the shifter.
If someone made it operate otherwise you have to change it back in the E-tube app.
Tomorrow I'm riding again but on Monday I'll bring the Emonda in the computer room and see if I can figure out how to reverse the switches so they act like the ones on the Colnago. And I'm sure that the ones on the Lemond are going to act like the Colnago since they had been setup by team CCC.
Now this is REALLY weird. Setting the levers for right side and left side that they mean by "up" and "down" is OPPOSITE from one side to the other. I've been fiddling around with it here for a hour and finally got the large (back) switch finally to go into the big ring with the back lever and into the larger cog with the back lever by using exactly opposite setting on each side. I'll mess around with it again tomorrow but after I get it working the levers will work similar to a manual lever. But WHY the hell would UP mean different for the left and right lever?

This is the standard lever assignment: https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/um/UM-6VE0B-003-00-ENG.pdf

I think of it spatially. The upper lever on both sides makes the chain go up -- on the left up to the big ring and on the right up to the big cog. The lower lever does the reverse. You and Lou are calling the upper lever the inner lever.

It basically follows the cable-shifting paradigm, except the upper lever is the surrogate for the main brake lever. With cable shifting, your main lever makes the chain go up, and the lower lever makes it go down. All of this can be changed on the e-tube project, which you can load on to a tablet (or a phone if you want to buy the Ant/Blue Tooth link). You don't need to take your bike into the computer room.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 4:41:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 4:10:54 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 6:10:43 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 11:05:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 7:15:04 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 9:55:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op vrijdag 28 augustus 2020 om 18:25:14 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 8:55:59 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2020 at 3:07:34 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2020 at 11:51:52 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 10:30:39 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I installed Di2 on my Colnago. I couldn't get any response from the battery so I looked inside the seat tube and sure enough it was disconnected. I figured out a way to fish the wire out (take a shifter outer, put an inner in and bend it back on itself and tape it to the outer. This gives you a fairly solid way to reach down into the seat tube and put the loop around the wire and retrieve it.).

After I reconnected it, there was still no response from the underbar controller. (EW90-B) So I plugged the charger in and it went into full charge. Apparently the new internal battery was discharged. It required about an hour to charge and then would give a green light when the test button was pushed. So then I opened the Shimano E-tube software and checked the software updates and then tried to recognize everything.

Well, it recognized the front and rear derailleurs, the underbar controller and the "main controller" (battery).

What it would NOT recognize is the shift levers. Now these are brand new so it is highly unlikely that they are defective in any way and it would be highly unlikely that that both levers would be so.

Does anyone have any ideas? My sole choice is that the underbar controller is faulty and so I have ordered a new one. Does anyone have a better suggestion? I sort of remember that the man who put my Emonda Ultegra Di2 together said something along the same lines when I picked it up. Is there so sort of trick such as holding a lever on or something?
OK, I don't know why my posting yesterday didn't post but I'll clear the problem up. If you use the Shimano wiring tool it will not properly insert the wire into the levers using the supposed "correct" round side of the tool. In fact it is probably easier to insert the wire by hand, move it as far forward as you can and then using the opposite side of the tool that is supposed to be used to pull wires out push the connector in.. It is difficult to feel it "click" into place so you just have to do your best and then using the Shimano program try and recognize the levers. If it recognizes everything else and you have no levers showing it is most likely because the connection hasn't been made.

Also, some internal batteries have a very bad connector on them and one of the tricks is to push the copper slide in and then try to feel a "click" when you use the Shimano wiring tool. If you can push it in by hand and/or cannot feel a solid click, you should probably replace the battery with another - ALWAYS buy new batteries since they are rated for maximum full number of charges.

There are LOTS of "new" levers on the market. But most of them are the older 9050's. These were built 10 years ago and the firmware needs to be updated with occurs when you're using the charging box and e-tube software. The latest levers (I think they are 9160's) have an additional switch on the top of the lever. If you have a bluetooth unit installed in-line with the rest of the wiring you can set these switches up to do a number of things. For one thing you could use them to change pages on your Garmin Edge or Wahoo. Or you can set them up so that one switch shifts only up and the other only down. You CAN already set up any of the 9000's to do all shifting from the right lever and it will calculate the gear ratios so that you always have the next higher of lower gear regardless of whether or not it has to shift the chain rings.

I prefer it to act like a manual shifter at the moment since you have to get used to the way it shifts into the big ring from the small. You have to semi-pause your pedaling. or at least pedal very lightly until it shifts. It may not act that way if you have pro-gears like a 53-39 or 42.

So, the bottom line is that if it recognizes most of the stuff, any missing stuff is probably nothing more than a faulty connection. And ALL of the 105, Ultegra or Dura Ace stuff is interchangeable so it is difficult to find stuff that doesn't interchange.
Although I never had any problem with a connector and I find the feedback quite OK when the connector snaps in place I agree that the tool is pretty useless especially for the shifter connector. Most op the time I just plug it in or pull it out by hand.

Lou
The stuff that is out in the open like the derailleurs or the battery can be snapped in place by hand but you cannot do that with the levers and they are an absolute pain-in-the-ass connection. Now there are THREE plugs on the levers. Shimano chat sort of indicated to me that the bottom two are for extraneous switches like the TT bars or the Sprint switches.. But a local mechanic said that the top two would work for the levers and the bottom one for sprint switches which are normally near the center of the handlebars so that you have a more aero position since the pros are hitting 40 mph in a sprint. I sprinted for a light one time and hit 36 mph so that isn't an exaggeration. And that particular light is flat ground and normally has a side wind.

Shimano chat insisted that I wasn't getting the connection made but I was sure I was. But it turned out he was correct and it was just because I was trying to use the tool the way it was designed. Shimano really has to change the lever case molding so that the tool works properly.
While waiting for the chain breaker to come I was looking at my left shifter and it is working opposite from my other one - that is the larger lever is shifting the front derailleur into the big ring and the smaller checked lever into the small ring.

I believe that when I was initially setting it up there was that option to reverse the operation of the levers but do not remember clearly. Does anyone know exactly how you put these back to normal?
This is normal, just like the mechanical one. Big lever-big ring, small lever make the chain drop to the little ring. What has the right shifter to do with the left shifter? Shimano once tried to make it 'logical' on their ATB groupsets, but that was not a succes. Normal is what you used to.

Lou
On the right lever if you push the inside switch you go to a larger cog. On the left side of my Emond if you push the inside switch it goes to a larger ring.

While the right lever works the same on my Colnago, the left lever operates opposite. So if you consider the left on the Colnago "normal" the Emonda which was setup by a shop is reversed. Naturally I want them both to work the same in any case.
I have three bikes with Di2 shifting. All three bikes are set up with the same Shimano out of the box shifting logic. Right = RD (duh..): inner switch = bigger gear (smaller cog), outer switch = smaller gear (larger cog). Left = FD: inner switch = small chainring, outer switch = big chainring.
I hope we mean the same with inner switch. The inner switch is the switch closest to the handlebar if you look from the side at the shifter.
If someone made it operate otherwise you have to change it back in the E-tube app.
Tomorrow I'm riding again but on Monday I'll bring the Emonda in the computer room and see if I can figure out how to reverse the switches so they act like the ones on the Colnago. And I'm sure that the ones on the Lemond are going to act like the Colnago since they had been setup by team CCC.
Now this is REALLY weird. Setting the levers for right side and left side that they mean by "up" and "down" is OPPOSITE from one side to the other.. I've been fiddling around with it here for a hour and finally got the large (back) switch finally to go into the big ring with the back lever and into the larger cog with the back lever by using exactly opposite setting on each side. I'll mess around with it again tomorrow but after I get it working the levers will work similar to a manual lever. But WHY the hell would UP mean different for the left and right lever?
This is the standard lever assignment: https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/um/UM-6VE0B-003-00-ENG.pdf

I think of it spatially. The upper lever on both sides makes the chain go up -- on the left up to the big ring and on the right up to the big cog. The lower lever does the reverse. You and Lou are calling the upper lever the inner lever.

It basically follows the cable-shifting paradigm, except the upper lever is the surrogate for the main brake lever. With cable shifting, your main lever makes the chain go up, and the lower lever makes it go down. All of this can be changed on the e-tube project, which you can load on to a tablet (or a phone if you want to buy the Ant/Blue Tooth link). You don't need to take your bike into the computer room.

That is the way the shop set them up on my 6800 set up but that is NOT the way that the M9000 came from the factory It is opposite. It is also slightly non-intuitive. The opposite way is slightly more intuitive since it is similar to manual shifting. (Push Big Lever, go into larger ring or cog.)

I was beginning to worry that you went down to those "peaceful protests" and got your butt shot off.

On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 4:54:00 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 4:41:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 4:10:54 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 6:10:43 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 11:05:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 7:15:04 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 9:55:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op vrijdag 28 augustus 2020 om 18:25:14 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 8:55:59 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2020 at 3:07:34 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2020 at 11:51:52 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 10:30:39 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I installed Di2 on my Colnago. I couldn't get any response from the battery so I looked inside the seat tube and sure enough it was disconnected. I figured out a way to fish the wire out (take a shifter outer, put an inner in and bend it back on itself and tape it to the outer. This gives you a fairly solid way to reach down into the seat tube and put the loop around the wire and retrieve it.).

After I reconnected it, there was still no response from the underbar controller. (EW90-B) So I plugged the charger in and it went into full charge. Apparently the new internal battery was discharged. It required about an hour to charge and then would give a green light when the test button was pushed. So then I opened the Shimano E-tube software and checked the software updates and then tried to recognize everything.

Well, it recognized the front and rear derailleurs, the underbar controller and the "main controller" (battery).

What it would NOT recognize is the shift levers. Now these are brand new so it is highly unlikely that they are defective in any way and it would be highly unlikely that that both levers would be so.

Does anyone have any ideas? My sole choice is that the underbar controller is faulty and so I have ordered a new one. Does anyone have a better suggestion? I sort of remember that the man who put my Emonda Ultegra Di2 together said something along the same lines when I picked it up. Is there so sort of trick such as holding a lever on or something?
OK, I don't know why my posting yesterday didn't post but I'll clear the problem up. If you use the Shimano wiring tool it will not properly insert the wire into the levers using the supposed "correct" round side of the tool. In fact it is probably easier to insert the wire by hand, move it as far forward as you can and then using the opposite side of the tool that is supposed to be used to pull wires out push the connector in. It is difficult to feel it "click" into place so you just have to do your best and then using the Shimano program try and recognize the levers. If it recognizes everything else and you have no levers showing it is most likely because the connection hasn't been made.

Also, some internal batteries have a very bad connector on them and one of the tricks is to push the copper slide in and then try to feel a "click" when you use the Shimano wiring tool. If you can push it in by hand and/or cannot feel a solid click, you should probably replace the battery with another - ALWAYS buy new batteries since they are rated for maximum full number of charges.

There are LOTS of "new" levers on the market. But most of them are the older 9050's. These were built 10 years ago and the firmware needs to be updated with occurs when you're using the charging box and e-tube software. The latest levers (I think they are 9160's) have an additional switch on the top of the lever. If you have a bluetooth unit installed in-line with the rest of the wiring you can set these switches up to do a number of things. For one thing you could use them to change pages on your Garmin Edge or Wahoo. Or you can set them up so that one switch shifts only up and the other only down. You CAN already set up any of the 9000's to do all shifting from the right lever and it will calculate the gear ratios so that you always have the next higher of lower gear regardless of whether or not it has to shift the chain rings.

I prefer it to act like a manual shifter at the moment since you have to get used to the way it shifts into the big ring from the small. You have to semi-pause your pedaling. or at least pedal very lightly until it shifts. It may not act that way if you have pro-gears like a 53-39 or 42.

So, the bottom line is that if it recognizes most of the stuff, any missing stuff is probably nothing more than a faulty connection. And ALL of the 105, Ultegra or Dura Ace stuff is interchangeable so it is difficult to find stuff that doesn't interchange.
Although I never had any problem with a connector and I find the feedback quite OK when the connector snaps in place I agree that the tool is pretty useless especially for the shifter connector. Most op the time I just plug it in or pull it out by hand.

Lou
The stuff that is out in the open like the derailleurs or the battery can be snapped in place by hand but you cannot do that with the levers and they are an absolute pain-in-the-ass connection. Now there are THREE plugs on the levers. Shimano chat sort of indicated to me that the bottom two are for extraneous switches like the TT bars or the Sprint switches. But a local mechanic said that the top two would work for the levers and the bottom one for sprint switches which are normally near the center of the handlebars so that you have a more aero position since the pros are hitting 40 mph in a sprint. I sprinted for a light one time and hit 36 mph so that isn't an exaggeration. And that particular light is flat ground and normally has a side wind.

Shimano chat insisted that I wasn't getting the connection made but I was sure I was. But it turned out he was correct and it was just because I was trying to use the tool the way it was designed. Shimano really has to change the lever case molding so that the tool works properly.
While waiting for the chain breaker to come I was looking at my left shifter and it is working opposite from my other one - that is the larger lever is shifting the front derailleur into the big ring and the smaller checked lever into the small ring.

I believe that when I was initially setting it up there was that option to reverse the operation of the levers but do not remember clearly. Does anyone know exactly how you put these back to normal?
This is normal, just like the mechanical one. Big lever-big ring, small lever make the chain drop to the little ring. What has the right shifter to do with the left shifter? Shimano once tried to make it 'logical' on their ATB groupsets, but that was not a succes. Normal is what you used to.

Lou
On the right lever if you push the inside switch you go to a larger cog. On the left side of my Emond if you push the inside switch it goes to a larger ring.

While the right lever works the same on my Colnago, the left lever operates opposite. So if you consider the left on the Colnago "normal" the Emonda which was setup by a shop is reversed. Naturally I want them both to work the same in any case.
I have three bikes with Di2 shifting. All three bikes are set up with the same Shimano out of the box shifting logic. Right = RD (duh..): inner switch = bigger gear (smaller cog), outer switch = smaller gear (larger cog). Left = FD: inner switch = small chainring, outer switch = big chainring.
I hope we mean the same with inner switch. The inner switch is the switch closest to the handlebar if you look from the side at the shifter.
If someone made it operate otherwise you have to change it back in the E-tube app.
Tomorrow I'm riding again but on Monday I'll bring the Emonda in the computer room and see if I can figure out how to reverse the switches so they act like the ones on the Colnago. And I'm sure that the ones on the Lemond are going to act like the Colnago since they had been setup by team CCC.
Now this is REALLY weird. Setting the levers for right side and left side that they mean by "up" and "down" is OPPOSITE from one side to the other. I've been fiddling around with it here for a hour and finally got the large (back) switch finally to go into the big ring with the back lever and into the larger cog with the back lever by using exactly opposite setting on each side. I'll mess around with it again tomorrow but after I get it working the levers will work similar to a manual lever. But WHY the hell would UP mean different for the left and right lever?
This is the standard lever assignment: https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/um/UM-6VE0B-003-00-ENG.pdf

I think of it spatially. The upper lever on both sides makes the chain go up -- on the left up to the big ring and on the right up to the big cog. The lower lever does the reverse. You and Lou are calling the upper lever the inner lever.

It basically follows the cable-shifting paradigm, except the upper lever is the surrogate for the main brake lever. With cable shifting, your main lever makes the chain go up, and the lower lever makes it go down. All of this can be changed on the e-tube project, which you can load on to a tablet (or a phone if you want to buy the Ant/Blue Tooth link). You don't need to take your bike into the computer room.

That is the way the shop set them up on my 6800 set up but that is NOT the way that the M9000 came from the factory It is opposite. It is also slightly non-intuitive. The opposite way is slightly more intuitive since it is similar to manual shifting. (Push Big Lever, go into larger ring or cog.)

I was beginning to worry that you went down to those "peaceful protests" and got your butt shot off.

Two gorgeous rides unaffected by the pin-head Patriot Prayer/Trump dope parade or their Antifa foils. This charade pre-dates the BLM/George Floyd protests. Its more of the same old same old, but someone got shot -- and unlike other cities, shootings are rare here. The BLM protests produced no shootings. Also, we still don't know who shot whom and why.

All of those Trump PU drivers got their revenge on me today while I was riding around Clackamas County. F*** them -- cars pass normally and then you get the God-loving, Trump supporting, flag-waving, real Amerycuns who have to pass within an inch, gunning their diesels and leaving you gasping for air. It's not like I'm wearing a Biden jersey or F*** Trump jersey. What a bunch of morons. They should put a warning on the Clackamas County home page.. https://www.clackamas.us/pga/about.html

Also, while I'm at it, the know-nothing Faux news basement dwelling comment posters don't seem to understand how Portland government works. https://oregonencyclopedia.org/artic.../#.X0xMuMhKgRk If Ted Wheeler seems weak -- he is, because that's how we structured city government a long time ago, and Portland voters have resisted a typical strong-mayor system. We've managed on our own, however, for centuries -- without Il Duce coming to our rescue or ruin, more likely the latter.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 6:13:36 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 4:54:00 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 4:41:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 4:10:54 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 6:10:43 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 11:05:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 7:15:04 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 9:55:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op vrijdag 28 augustus 2020 om 18:25:14 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 8:55:59 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2020 at 3:07:34 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2020 at 11:51:52 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 10:30:39 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I installed Di2 on my Colnago. I couldn't get any response from the battery so I looked inside the seat tube and sure enough it was disconnected. I figured out a way to fish the wire out (take a shifter outer, put an inner in and bend it back on itself and tape it to the outer. This gives you a fairly solid way to reach down into the seat tube and put the loop around the wire and retrieve it.).

After I reconnected it, there was still no response from the underbar controller. (EW90-B) So I plugged the charger in and it went into full charge. Apparently the new internal battery was discharged.. It required about an hour to charge and then would give a green light when the test button was pushed. So then I opened the Shimano E-tube software and checked the software updates and then tried to recognize everything.

Well, it recognized the front and rear derailleurs, the underbar controller and the "main controller" (battery).

What it would NOT recognize is the shift levers. Now these are brand new so it is highly unlikely that they are defective in any way and it would be highly unlikely that that both levers would be so.

Does anyone have any ideas? My sole choice is that the underbar controller is faulty and so I have ordered a new one. Does anyone have a better suggestion? I sort of remember that the man who put my Emonda Ultegra Di2 together said something along the same lines when I picked it up. Is there so sort of trick such as holding a lever on or something?
OK, I don't know why my posting yesterday didn't post but I'll clear the problem up. If you use the Shimano wiring tool it will not properly insert the wire into the levers using the supposed "correct" round side of the tool. In fact it is probably easier to insert the wire by hand, move it as far forward as you can and then using the opposite side of the tool that is supposed to be used to pull wires out push the connector in. It is difficult to feel it "click" into place so you just have to do your best and then using the Shimano program try and recognize the levers. If it recognizes everything else and you have no levers showing it is most likely because the connection hasn't been made.

Also, some internal batteries have a very bad connector on them and one of the tricks is to push the copper slide in and then try to feel a "click" when you use the Shimano wiring tool. If you can push it in by hand and/or cannot feel a solid click, you should probably replace the battery with another - ALWAYS buy new batteries since they are rated for maximum full number of charges.

There are LOTS of "new" levers on the market. But most of them are the older 9050's. These were built 10 years ago and the firmware needs to be updated with occurs when you're using the charging box and e-tube software. The latest levers (I think they are 9160's) have an additional switch on the top of the lever. If you have a bluetooth unit installed in-line with the rest of the wiring you can set these switches up to do a number of things. For one thing you could use them to change pages on your Garmin Edge or Wahoo. Or you can set them up so that one switch shifts only up and the other only down. You CAN already set up any of the 9000's to do all shifting from the right lever and it will calculate the gear ratios so that you always have the next higher of lower gear regardless of whether or not it has to shift the chain rings.

I prefer it to act like a manual shifter at the moment since you have to get used to the way it shifts into the big ring from the small. You have to semi-pause your pedaling. or at least pedal very lightly until it shifts. It may not act that way if you have pro-gears like a 53-39 or 42.

So, the bottom line is that if it recognizes most of the stuff, any missing stuff is probably nothing more than a faulty connection. And ALL of the 105, Ultegra or Dura Ace stuff is interchangeable so it is difficult to find stuff that doesn't interchange.
Although I never had any problem with a connector and I find the feedback quite OK when the connector snaps in place I agree that the tool is pretty useless especially for the shifter connector. Most op the time I just plug it in or pull it out by hand.

Lou
The stuff that is out in the open like the derailleurs or the battery can be snapped in place by hand but you cannot do that with the levers and they are an absolute pain-in-the-ass connection. Now there are THREE plugs on the levers. Shimano chat sort of indicated to me that the bottom two are for extraneous switches like the TT bars or the Sprint switches. But a local mechanic said that the top two would work for the levers and the bottom one for sprint switches which are normally near the center of the handlebars so that you have a more aero position since the pros are hitting 40 mph in a sprint. I sprinted for a light one time and hit 36 mph so that isn't an exaggeration. And that particular light is flat ground and normally has a side wind.

Shimano chat insisted that I wasn't getting the connection made but I was sure I was. But it turned out he was correct and it was just because I was trying to use the tool the way it was designed. Shimano really has to change the lever case molding so that the tool works properly..
While waiting for the chain breaker to come I was looking at my left shifter and it is working opposite from my other one - that is the larger lever is shifting the front derailleur into the big ring and the smaller checked lever into the small ring.

I believe that when I was initially setting it up there was that option to reverse the operation of the levers but do not remember clearly. Does anyone know exactly how you put these back to normal?
This is normal, just like the mechanical one. Big lever-big ring, small lever make the chain drop to the little ring. What has the right shifter to do with the left shifter? Shimano once tried to make it 'logical' on their ATB groupsets, but that was not a succes. Normal is what you used to.

Lou
On the right lever if you push the inside switch you go to a larger cog. On the left side of my Emond if you push the inside switch it goes to a larger ring.

While the right lever works the same on my Colnago, the left lever operates opposite. So if you consider the left on the Colnago "normal" the Emonda which was setup by a shop is reversed. Naturally I want them both to work the same in any case.
I have three bikes with Di2 shifting. All three bikes are set up with the same Shimano out of the box shifting logic. Right = RD (duh..): inner switch = bigger gear (smaller cog), outer switch = smaller gear (larger cog). Left = FD: inner switch = small chainring, outer switch = big chainring.
I hope we mean the same with inner switch. The inner switch is the switch closest to the handlebar if you look from the side at the shifter.
If someone made it operate otherwise you have to change it back in the E-tube app.
Tomorrow I'm riding again but on Monday I'll bring the Emonda in the computer room and see if I can figure out how to reverse the switches so they act like the ones on the Colnago. And I'm sure that the ones on the Lemond are going to act like the Colnago since they had been setup by team CCC.
Now this is REALLY weird. Setting the levers for right side and left side that they mean by "up" and "down" is OPPOSITE from one side to the other. I've been fiddling around with it here for a hour and finally got the large (back) switch finally to go into the big ring with the back lever and into the larger cog with the back lever by using exactly opposite setting on each side. I'll mess around with it again tomorrow but after I get it working the levers will work similar to a manual lever. But WHY the hell would UP mean different for the left and right lever?
This is the standard lever assignment: https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/um/UM-6VE0B-003-00-ENG.pdf

I think of it spatially. The upper lever on both sides makes the chain go up -- on the left up to the big ring and on the right up to the big cog. The lower lever does the reverse. You and Lou are calling the upper lever the inner lever.

It basically follows the cable-shifting paradigm, except the upper lever is the surrogate for the main brake lever. With cable shifting, your main lever makes the chain go up, and the lower lever makes it go down. All of this can be changed on the e-tube project, which you can load on to a tablet (or a phone if you want to buy the Ant/Blue Tooth link). You don't need to take your bike into the computer room.

That is the way the shop set them up on my 6800 set up but that is NOT the way that the M9000 came from the factory It is opposite. It is also slightly non-intuitive. The opposite way is slightly more intuitive since it is similar to manual shifting. (Push Big Lever, go into larger ring or cog.)

I was beginning to worry that you went down to those "peaceful protests" and got your butt shot off.
Two gorgeous rides unaffected by the pin-head Patriot Prayer/Trump dope parade or their Antifa foils. This charade pre-dates the BLM/George Floyd protests. Its more of the same old same old, but someone got shot -- and unlike other cities, shootings are rare here. The BLM protests produced no shootings. Also, we still don't know who shot whom and why.

All of those Trump PU drivers got their revenge on me today while I was riding around Clackamas County. F*** them -- cars pass normally and then you get the God-loving, Trump supporting, flag-waving, real Amerycuns who have to pass within an inch, gunning their diesels and leaving you gasping for air. It's not like I'm wearing a Biden jersey or F*** Trump jersey. What a bunch of morons. They should put a warning on the Clackamas County home page. https://www.clackamas.us/pga/about.html

Also, while I'm at it, the know-nothing Faux news basement dwelling comment posters don't seem to understand how Portland government works. https://oregonencyclopedia.org/artic.../#.X0xMuMhKgRk If Ted Wheeler seems weak -- he is, because that's how we structured city government a long time ago, and Portland voters have resisted a typical strong-mayor system. We've managed on our own, however, for centuries -- without Il Duce coming to our rescue or ruin, more likely the latter.

-- Jay Beattie.
It is your stinking Slime Stream Media that is maintaining total silence over who shot whom. After all, most of the BLM protestors who turn this into a riot are white thugs and if they start thinking that they might die, the sun may stop shining on the "protestors" who think that their lives are FAR more important than the property of someone else.

Back on the subject of Di2. I just finished a ride on my Colnago that had a Dura Ace 9000 group on it. The way it was set up out of the box was different than Jay's reference to the Shimano manual. It had the inside switch shift to lower speeds and the outside switch shift to high speeds. This means that the large left lever shifted into the large ring rather than the manual showing the opposite. On the right side the large lever dropped the cogs down to smaller cogs decreasing the ratio. With this setup it was pretty instinctive and I only made a mistake once on the 45 mile/2500 foot climbing ride. And this is after riding it the "default" method for the last 5 rides.

So I brought the Emonda with the 6870 set in the computer room and set them up the same. I will say this: the 9000 shifts a HELL of a lot cleaner and quieter. But part of that may be me getting used to shifting it more deliberately with practice. All of the wires haven't come in for the Lemond external yet so I'm looking forward to that. Much to my surprise the Colnago CLX3.0 is just under 18 lbs. So I'm not complaining since it is a XL.

I have a couple of bottles of Rock and Road. I tried this and didn't notice much improvement in the noise of the chain vs. using hot wax. Silca is advertising some stuff that is supposed to work better than any other chain preparation - "Super Secret" which apparently has a soft metal rather than the Teflon that I'm been using in my hot wax treatment.

On 9/1/2020 6:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Back on the subject of Di2. I just finished a ride on my Colnago that had a Dura Ace 9000 group on it. The way it was set up out of the box was different than Jay's reference to the Shimano manual. It had the inside switch shift to lower speeds and the outside switch shift to high speeds. This means that the large left lever shifted into the large ring rather than the manual showing the opposite. On the right side the large lever dropped the cogs down to smaller cogs decreasing the ratio. With this setup it was pretty instinctive and I only made a mistake once on the 45 mile/2500 foot climbing ride. And this is after riding it the "default" method for the last 5 rides.

So I brought the Emonda with the 6870 set in the computer room and set them up the same. I will say this: the 9000 shifts a HELL of a lot cleaner and quieter. But part of that may be me getting used to shifting it more deliberately with practice. All of the wires haven't come in for the Lemond external yet so I'm looking forward to that. Much to my surprise the Colnago CLX3.0 is just under 18 lbs. So I'm not complaining since it is a XL.

I have a couple of bottles of Rock and Road. I tried this and didn't notice much improvement in the noise of the chain vs. using hot wax. Silca is advertising some stuff that is supposed to work better than any other chain preparation - "Super Secret" which apparently has a soft metal rather than the Teflon that I'm been using in my hot wax treatment.


Rock-N-Roll is spectacular stuff, especially where things
slide in tight spaces. It penetrates very well, almost
supernaturally well. Good example are solid-wire vintage
car heater controls or old sticky pivots on front changers.
I think there are better chain lubricants because RNR
needs very frequent application on a chain.

as regards "works better than any other", name a chain
lubricant product which does not claim that! I'll wait.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 01 Sep 2020 19:29:01 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/1/2020 6:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Back on the subject of Di2. I just finished a ride on my Colnago that had a Dura Ace 9000 group on it. The way it was set up out of the box was different than Jay's reference to the Shimano manual. It had the inside switch shift to lower speeds and the outside switch shift to high speeds. This means that the large left lever shifted into the large ring rather than the manual showing the opposite. On the right side the large lever dropped the cogs down to smaller cogs decreasing the ratio. With this setup it was pretty instinctive and I only made a mistake once on the 45 mile/2500 foot climbing ride. And this is after riding it the "default" method for the last 5 rides.

So I brought the Emonda with the 6870 set in the computer room and set them up the same. I will say this: the 9000 shifts a HELL of a lot cleaner and quieter. But part of that may be me getting used to shifting it more deliberately with practice. All of the wires haven't come in for the Lemond external yet so I'm looking forward to that. Much to my surprise the Colnago CLX3.0 is just under 18 lbs. So I'm not complaining since it is a XL.

I have a couple of bottles of Rock and Road. I tried this and didn't notice much improvement in the noise of the chain vs. using hot wax. Silca is advertising some stuff that is supposed to work better than any other chain preparation - "Super Secret" which apparently has a soft metal rather than the Teflon that I'm been using in my hot wax treatment.


Rock-N-Roll is spectacular stuff, especially where things
slide in tight spaces. It penetrates very well, almost
supernaturally well. Good example are solid-wire vintage
car heater controls or old sticky pivots on front changers.
I think there are better chain lubricants because RNR
needs very frequent application on a chain.

as regards "works better than any other", name a chain
lubricant product which does not claim that! I'll wait.

Rock N Roll does sell a "Rock N Roll Gold" which they market as a
bicycle chain lubricant.

But re penetration, how would you rate R N R in comparison to WD-40 or
CARSHINE Wonder Oil or others of that type?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 5:38:43 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 01 Sep 2020 19:29:01 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/1/2020 6:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Back on the subject of Di2. I just finished a ride on my Colnago that had a Dura Ace 9000 group on it. The way it was set up out of the box was different than Jay's reference to the Shimano manual. It had the inside switch shift to lower speeds and the outside switch shift to high speeds. This means that the large left lever shifted into the large ring rather than the manual showing the opposite. On the right side the large lever dropped the cogs down to smaller cogs decreasing the ratio. With this setup it was pretty instinctive and I only made a mistake once on the 45 mile/2500 foot climbing ride. And this is after riding it the "default" method for the last 5 rides.

So I brought the Emonda with the 6870 set in the computer room and set them up the same. I will say this: the 9000 shifts a HELL of a lot cleaner and quieter. But part of that may be me getting used to shifting it more deliberately with practice. All of the wires haven't come in for the Lemond external yet so I'm looking forward to that. Much to my surprise the Colnago CLX3.0 is just under 18 lbs. So I'm not complaining since it is a XL.

I have a couple of bottles of Rock and Road. I tried this and didn't notice much improvement in the noise of the chain vs. using hot wax. Silca is advertising some stuff that is supposed to work better than any other chain preparation - "Super Secret" which apparently has a soft metal rather than the Teflon that I'm been using in my hot wax treatment.


Rock-N-Roll is spectacular stuff, especially where things
slide in tight spaces. It penetrates very well, almost
supernaturally well. Good example are solid-wire vintage
car heater controls or old sticky pivots on front changers.
I think there are better chain lubricants because RNR
needs very frequent application on a chain.

as regards "works better than any other", name a chain
lubricant product which does not claim that! I'll wait.

Rock N Roll does sell a "Rock N Roll Gold" which they market as a
bicycle chain lubricant.

But re penetration, how would you rate R N R in comparison to WD-40 or
CARSHINE Wonder Oil or others of that type?
--

I use Rock N Roll Gold because I got it on sale cheap. I don't feel any faster -- and it is on my red bike, the fastest one of all.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/1/2020 7:38 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 01 Sep 2020 19:29:01 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/1/2020 6:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Back on the subject of Di2. I just finished a ride on my Colnago that had a Dura Ace 9000 group on it. The way it was set up out of the box was different than Jay's reference to the Shimano manual. It had the inside switch shift to lower speeds and the outside switch shift to high speeds. This means that the large left lever shifted into the large ring rather than the manual showing the opposite. On the right side the large lever dropped the cogs down to smaller cogs decreasing the ratio. With this setup it was pretty instinctive and I only made a mistake once on the 45 mile/2500 foot climbing ride. And this is after riding it the "default" method for the last 5 rides.

So I brought the Emonda with the 6870 set in the computer room and set them up the same. I will say this: the 9000 shifts a HELL of a lot cleaner and quieter. But part of that may be me getting used to shifting it more deliberately with practice. All of the wires haven't come in for the Lemond external yet so I'm looking forward to that. Much to my surprise the Colnago CLX3.0 is just under 18 lbs. So I'm not complaining since it is a XL.

I have a couple of bottles of Rock and Road. I tried this and didn't notice much improvement in the noise of the chain vs. using hot wax. Silca is advertising some stuff that is supposed to work better than any other chain preparation - "Super Secret" which apparently has a soft metal rather than the Teflon that I'm been using in my hot wax treatment.


Rock-N-Roll is spectacular stuff, especially where things
slide in tight spaces. It penetrates very well, almost
supernaturally well. Good example are solid-wire vintage
car heater controls or old sticky pivots on front changers.
I think there are better chain lubricants because RNR
needs very frequent application on a chain.

as regards "works better than any other", name a chain
lubricant product which does not claim that! I'll wait.

Rock N Roll does sell a "Rock N Roll Gold" which they market as a
bicycle chain lubricant.

But re penetration, how would you rate R N R in comparison to WD-40 or
CARSHINE Wonder Oil or others of that type?


It penetrates where nothing else does. Try it on something
which no longer moves you'll be impressed.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971