Disc brake failure

On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 6:44:39 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/22/2020 9:16 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 4:24:12 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/21/2020 10:57 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 20, 2020 at 10:14:09 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And I've mentioned the bike tourist we hosted whose disc pads wore away
completely on a loaded tour in the Appalachians. Probably not Pellaud's
problem, but worth remembering nonetheless.

Beware of risk compensation, as in "I've got disc brakes! These stop
perfectly every time!"

Really? So we should be riding like "I've got sh** brakes! These don't stop perfectly every time!" Wow. Russian Roulette brakes.

You should realize risk compensation is real, and you should be riding
like "I should be careful. No brakes are miracles." And if you change
brake systems, you should learn the characteristics of your new brakes
and what to watch for. The tourist I mention never expected he'd have no
brakes at all after a couple days mountain riding.

All my brakes stop perfectly in dry weather, or perfectly enough and with different amounts of effort.

That's the same thing I say. And mine work a little less well in the
wet, but they've always worked well enough.

Continuous brake dragging is murder on rim brakes, too ...

Yes, it's murder on rim brakes and bike disc brakes.

Most of these Euro-pro racers are so light that they present relatively easy brake loads, and they typically descend like rockets with only periodic braking -- so there is at least some time to cool pads and rotors. It would take a really unusually descent to require continuous brake dragging.

Will you tell Pellaud his brakes were just fine?

--
- Frank Krygowski

What would you tell Pellaud?

Before I'd tell him anything, I'd ask for details about the ride before
the crash and how his brakes were being used.

It's obvious something went wrong regarding his disc brakes. That fact
alone will be shocking to those that think every new marketing gimmick
is a perfect miracle.

New marketing gimmick? Discs have been on bikes for decades. I started riding cable discs 15 years ago on my commuter CX bike. This is a mature technology -- and one that this commentator thinks is perfect for Alpine road descents. https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...our-road-bike/

My question would be "what pads were you using," and I'd want to make sure the system was leaking or recently bled causing air in the lines. I'd also ask about modifications, which have been known to hurt riders. https://www.velonews.com/gear/road-g...lost-the-giro/ Presumably, the rest of the pack made it to the bottom unharmed, and I'm sure dozens of them (at least) were using discs.

BTW, what isn't a gimmick to you? I think Cambio Corsa was sufficient and five-speed Campy derailleurs are a gimmick -- same with lightweight clinchers and seat posts that you didn't require a z-shaped wrench. Pivo stems were the pinnacle of human achievement. Everyone should have a Brooks saddle and cantis -- because they are simple and straight forward unlike, say, dual pivots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8qMBsWLwN4&vl=en Later that same day . . . And when its all done, you have a middling brake, but it is an AUTHENTIC brake and not a gimmick.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 7:50:35 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 6:44:39 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/22/2020 9:16 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 4:24:12 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/21/2020 10:57 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 20, 2020 at 10:14:09 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And I've mentioned the bike tourist we hosted whose disc pads wore away
completely on a loaded tour in the Appalachians. Probably not Pellaud's
problem, but worth remembering nonetheless.

Beware of risk compensation, as in "I've got disc brakes! These stop
perfectly every time!"

Really? So we should be riding like "I've got sh** brakes! These don't stop perfectly every time!" Wow. Russian Roulette brakes.

You should realize risk compensation is real, and you should be riding
like "I should be careful. No brakes are miracles." And if you change
brake systems, you should learn the characteristics of your new brakes
and what to watch for. The tourist I mention never expected he'd have no
brakes at all after a couple days mountain riding.

All my brakes stop perfectly in dry weather, or perfectly enough and with different amounts of effort.

That's the same thing I say. And mine work a little less well in the
wet, but they've always worked well enough.

Continuous brake dragging is murder on rim brakes, too ...

Yes, it's murder on rim brakes and bike disc brakes.

Most of these Euro-pro racers are so light that they present relatively easy brake loads, and they typically descend like rockets with only periodic braking -- so there is at least some time to cool pads and rotors. It would take a really unusually descent to require continuous brake dragging.

Will you tell Pellaud his brakes were just fine?

--
- Frank Krygowski

What would you tell Pellaud?

Before I'd tell him anything, I'd ask for details about the ride before
the crash and how his brakes were being used.

It's obvious something went wrong regarding his disc brakes. That fact
alone will be shocking to those that think every new marketing gimmick
is a perfect miracle.
New marketing gimmick? Discs have been on bikes for decades. I started riding cable discs 15 years ago on my commuter CX bike. This is a mature technology -- and one that this commentator thinks is perfect for Alpine road descents. https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...our-road-bike/

My question would be "what pads were you using," and I'd want to make sure the system was leaking or recently bled causing air in the lines. I'd also ask about modifications, which have been known to hurt riders. https://www.velonews.com/gear/road-g...lost-the-giro/ Presumably, the rest of the pack made it to the bottom unharmed, and I'm sure dozens of them (at least) were using discs.

BTW, what isn't a gimmick to you? I think Cambio Corsa was sufficient and five-speed Campy derailleurs are a gimmick -- same with lightweight clinchers and seat posts that you didn't require a z-shaped wrench. Pivo stems were the pinnacle of human achievement. Everyone should have a Brooks saddle and cantis -- because they are simple and straight forward unlike, say, dual pivots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8qMBsWLwN4&vl=en Later that same day . . . And when its all done, you have a middling brake, but it is an AUTHENTIC brake and not a gimmick.

-- Jay Beattie.
I think that it would be pretty difficult to beat the latest flat mounted disk brakes. As I said though, you have to always remain away of your hand position on the levers and respect the power of those disks.

On 8/22/2020 10:50 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 6:44:39 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/22/2020 9:16 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 4:24:12 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/21/2020 10:57 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 20, 2020 at 10:14:09 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And I've mentioned the bike tourist we hosted whose disc pads wore away
completely on a loaded tour in the Appalachians. Probably not Pellaud's
problem, but worth remembering nonetheless.

Beware of risk compensation, as in "I've got disc brakes! These stop
perfectly every time!"

Really? So we should be riding like "I've got sh** brakes! These don't stop perfectly every time!" Wow. Russian Roulette brakes.

You should realize risk compensation is real, and you should be riding
like "I should be careful. No brakes are miracles." And if you change
brake systems, you should learn the characteristics of your new brakes
and what to watch for. The tourist I mention never expected he'd have no
brakes at all after a couple days mountain riding.

All my brakes stop perfectly in dry weather, or perfectly enough and with different amounts of effort.

That's the same thing I say. And mine work a little less well in the
wet, but they've always worked well enough.

Continuous brake dragging is murder on rim brakes, too ...

Yes, it's murder on rim brakes and bike disc brakes.

Most of these Euro-pro racers are so light that they present relatively easy brake loads, and they typically descend like rockets with only periodic braking -- so there is at least some time to cool pads and rotors. It would take a really unusually descent to require continuous brake dragging.

Will you tell Pellaud his brakes were just fine?

--
- Frank Krygowski

What would you tell Pellaud?

Before I'd tell him anything, I'd ask for details about the ride before
the crash and how his brakes were being used.

It's obvious something went wrong regarding his disc brakes. That fact
alone will be shocking to those that think every new marketing gimmick
is a perfect miracle.

New marketing gimmick? Discs have been on bikes for decades. I started riding cable discs 15 years ago on my commuter CX bike. This is a mature technology -- and one that this commentator thinks is perfect for Alpine road descents. https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...our-road-bike/

My question would be "what pads were you using," and I'd want to make sure the system was leaking or recently bled causing air in the lines. I'd also ask about modifications, which have been known to hurt riders. https://www.velonews.com/gear/road-g...lost-the-giro/ Presumably, the rest of the pack made it to the bottom unharmed, and I'm sure dozens of them (at least) were using discs.

Good questions. At this point, we don't know what went wrong. But
telling this guy "You're light and you present relatively easy brake
loads" wouldn't have helped him, and won't help him now.

BTW, what isn't a gimmick to you?

I know discs have been around a long time. What hasn't been around a
long time is the "You _gotta_ get discs!" meme. That popped up maybe
three years ago. Suddenly brakes that nobody ever complained about were
inadequate and dangerous. That is a sales gimmick.

The major force behind the push for discs wasn't year-round Portland
commuting. It was bike industry churning - the same mechanism that used
to say your frame should prevent using 28mm tires. And that tires with
inner tubes are primitive. And that 14 (or maybe 21) gears aren't
enough, you need 16 (or maybe 24) gears - no, wait, you need 18 (or
maybe 27) - no, wait, you need 20 (or maybe 30) - no wait, you need 22 -
no, wait, you only need 11! Multiple chainrings are for dinosaurs!



--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/22/2020 10:50 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 6:44:39 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/22/2020 9:16 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 4:24:12 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/21/2020 10:57 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 20, 2020 at 10:14:09 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And I've mentioned the bike tourist we hosted whose disc pads wore away
completely on a loaded tour in the Appalachians. Probably not Pellaud's
problem, but worth remembering nonetheless.

Beware of risk compensation, as in "I've got disc brakes! These stop
perfectly every time!"

Really? So we should be riding like "I've got sh** brakes! These
don't stop perfectly every time!" Wow. Russian Roulette brakes.

You should realize risk compensation is real, and you should be riding
like "I should be careful. No brakes are miracles." And if you change
brake systems, you should learn the characteristics of your new brakes
and what to watch for. The tourist I mention never expected he'd have no
brakes at all after a couple days mountain riding.

All my brakes stop perfectly in dry weather, or perfectly enough and
with different amounts of effort.

That's the same thing I say. And mine work a little less well in the
wet, but they've always worked well enough.

Continuous brake dragging is murder on rim brakes, too ...

Yes, it's murder on rim brakes and bike disc brakes.

Most of these Euro-pro racers are so light that they present
relatively easy brake loads, and they typically descend like rockets
with only periodic braking -- so there is at least some time to cool
pads and rotors. It would take a really unusually descent to require
continuous brake dragging.

Will you tell Pellaud his brakes were just fine?

--
- Frank Krygowski

What would you tell Pellaud?

Before I'd tell him anything, I'd ask for details about the ride before
the crash and how his brakes were being used.

It's obvious something went wrong regarding his disc brakes. That fact
alone will be shocking to those that think every new marketing gimmick
is a perfect miracle.

New marketing gimmick? Discs have been on bikes for decades. I started
riding cable discs 15 years ago on my commuter CX bike. This is a mature
technology -- and one that this commentator thinks is perfect for Alpine
road descen
s. https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...our-road-bike/

My question would be "what pads were you using," and I'd want to make
sure the system was leaking or recently bled causing air in the lines.
I'd also ask about modifications, which have been known to hurt riders.
https://www.velonews.com/gear/road-g...lost-the-giro/
Presumably, the rest of the pack made it to the bottom unharmed, and I'm
sure dozens of them (at least) were using discs.

Good questions. At this point, we don't know what went wrong. But
telling this guy "You're light and you present relatively easy brake
loads" wouldn't have helped him, and won't help him now.

BTW, what isn't a gimmick to you?

I know discs have been around a long time. What hasn't been around a
long time is the "You _gotta_ get discs!" meme. That popped up maybe
three years ago. Suddenly brakes that nobody ever complained about were
inadequate and dangerous. That is a sales gimmick.

Depends who you speak to, over 10 years ago remember having chats with
folks who had been used to MTB’s with well established disk brakes, using a
road bike with rim brakes was if not terrifying, certainly a shock to the
system.

Anyone who used MTB and road knew that that the performance gap was huge.

The major force behind the push for discs wasn't year-round Portland
commuting. It was bike industry churning - the same mechanism that used
to say your frame should prevent using 28mm tires. And that tires with
inner tubes are primitive. And that 14 (or maybe 21) gears aren't
enough, you need 16 (or maybe 24) gears - no, wait, you need 18 (or
maybe 27) - no, wait, you need 20 (or maybe 30) - no wait, you need 22 -
no, wait, you only need 11! Multiple chainrings are for dinosaurs!


Disks and gravel bikes are fairly linked, I see no evidence that this was
industry lead, they have run with it once it started, but this is rider
lead.

Same goes for 1X systems and tubless which where used getto on MTB though
in fairness neither advantages are huge once on road and interest reflects
that generally on road.

Tubeless is not difficult to avoid just use tubes!

Roger Merriman