JJP&E Through Axle Conversion Kit

Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 19:46:16 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product: https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/

I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super close-out sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017 as a quick replacement for my broken commuter frame, and it came with 15X100 front through axles and crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to 12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my more recent Synapse -- and my son just sent me some Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on the Norco. The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to a 15mm through axle), I got one of these kits. Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads so I could thread-in the insert from the outside of the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a 12mm with a simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and I'll use that for my fat tire wheel set. The rear hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free hub body. It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec or ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl free hub body with two 6902 bearings and two more in the hub shell. The hub bearings felt great, but the free hub was really rough, so I knocked those out with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It was the perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair. Bearings in the mail. That wheel is otherwise disposable with a cheap rim with ragged spoke holes that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but it will be good for a second set. It is amazing that relatively expensive bikes now come with junky wheels suitable only for holding-up the bike on the showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between the 40's and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy cyclocross wheels that are 38 mm deep and my top speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon wheels is exactly the same. I have this idea that just about any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you exactly the same performance. Hambini keeps saying that you have to have 50 mm and 23 mm front tire but I think that is windtunnel and not practical information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so I wouldn't know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp 404s on a Roubaix in Utah. What I noticed with those was cross winds. It was unpleasant, particularly when descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel any faster, probably because I was inhaling thick smoke. Nobody was out riding. A very post-apocalyptic vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared to the Emonda, and the front end was a little too plush because I underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal width rim also rides pretty plush. No seal squeaking like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It is a gravel bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet of climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my house. Like Frank, it was really just a glorified run to the hardware store. I wish I had a N95 mask for the smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called hypercapnia, or excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can damage your airways. As someone with damaged airways take my word for it that it is not something you should volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden mental confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests were run on people not heavily exercising. As usual, their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my Madone and was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end bikes has gone absolutely through the ceiling. I may sell my Madone off and use the results to pay my property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more than three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property taxes that is a good idea, but please make up your mind it is getting very confusing.

Lou
His point about top-end bikes is true, though. My son is always telling me about the newest Specialized bikes, including the new super-secret ones that I can't mention, and then he asks me to guess the price for the S-Works founders edition of the bike. The numbers are staggering and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get you close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by 20% or more. I don't think manufacturing costs have risen nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs (but I doubt it). I think it is just market elasticity.

-- Jay Beattie.


I'm not denying that. All Tom's buying, selling, building, rebuilding, swapping is confusing.

Lou

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 12:34:55 PM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 1:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/

I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super close-out sale
from Western Bikeworks back in 2017 as a quick replacement for my
broken commuter frame, and it came with 15X100 front through axles
and crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to 12mm, so I
couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my more recent Synapse -- and
my son just sent me some Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on
the Norco. The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through axle.
So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new axle bearing unit (to
convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to a 15mm through axle), I got one of
these kits. Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the
YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads so I could
thread-in the insert from the outside of the fork. Otherwise,
easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a 12mm with a
simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and I'll use that for my fat
tire wheel set. The rear hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free
hub body. It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec or
ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl free hub body
with two 6902 bearings and two more in the hub shell. The hub
bearings felt great, but the free hub was really rough, so I
knocked those out with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It was the
perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair. Bearings in the mail.
That wheel is otherwise disposable with a cheap rim with ragged
spoke holes that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but it
will be good for a second set. It is amazing that relatively
expensive bikes now come with junky wheels suitable only for
holding-up the bike on the showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between the 40's and
50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy cyclocross wheels that are 38
mm deep and my top speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon
wheels is exactly the same. I have this idea that just about any
rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you exactly the same
performance. Hambini keeps saying that you have to have 50 mm and
23 mm front tire but I think that is windtunnel and not practical information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so I wouldn't
know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp 404s on a Roubaix in Utah.
What I noticed with those was cross winds. It was unpleasant,
particularly when descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments
coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel any faster,
probably because I was inhaling thick smoke. Nobody was out riding.. A very
post-apocalyptic vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared to the
Emonda, and the front end was a little too plush because I
underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal width rim also rides pretty
plush. No seal squeaking like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It
is a gravel bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly
racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet of climbing,
rolling around the West Hills near my house. Like Frank, it was
really just a glorified run to the hardware store. I wish I had a
N95 mask for the smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called hypercapnia, or
excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can damage your airways. As someone
with damaged airways take my word for it that it is not something you
should volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden mental
confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on answers.com
they claim it ain't so because the tests were run on people not
heavily exercising. As usual, their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my Madone and was
knocked almost flat. The cost of top end bikes has gone absolutely
through the ceiling. I may sell my Madone off and use the results to
pay my property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more than three
bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property taxes that is
a good idea, but please make up your mind it is getting very confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though. My son is always telling
me about the newest Specialized bikes, including the new super-secret
ones that I can't mention, and then he asks me to guess the price for
the S-Works founders edition of the bike. The numbers are staggering
and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big jumps as
compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get you close to the top.
Even the Canyon offerings are up by 20% or more. I don't think
manufacturing costs have risen nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs
(but I doubt it). I think it is just market elasticity.

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a $7000 road bike
really twice as good as a $3500 road bike? Is it four times as good as a
$1750 road bike? How much does it increase your speed, or your riding
comfort, your maximum distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early 1970s) said "I
can't afford the best car in the world. I can't afford the best stereo
system in the world. But I can afford the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance benefits or
longevity or anything practical. It was essentially bragging rights and
self satisfaction.
Of course not. Diminishing returns is one of the constants of the universe.
Is a $50 steak twice as good as a $25 steak? Is a $1,000,000 Ferrari twice
as good as a $500,000 Jaguar? There exists a continuum of price-value
points because different people have different internal values for a
dollar.

I bought the Emonda because I got a terrific deal on it just before the prices soared through the stratosphere. I happened to get a good deal on a Di2 and wanted to try it. I bought the Madone because it has a loose BB90 bottom bracket so I got a super deal on it and tried one method of repairing it and that only worked partially so the next is the recommendation of Trek - oversized bearings. The manual group was cheap at the time. I cannot see any difference between the Madone and the Colnago ride or speed. So I suppose I will unload the Madone with New DuraAce manual group what with prices in the stratosphere. I picked up the steel Lemond Zurich for peanuts as a frameset and the Di2 group for next to nothing From Team CCC since the team may dissolve unless another sponsor appears. One more wire and the wire covers and the Lemond is ready to go. It is 4 lbs heavier than the Colnago or Trek Emonda. But I can't tell the difference in a climb and it is more stable on a hard descent.

On 9/13/2020 12:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product: https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/

I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super close-out sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017 as a quick replacement for my broken commuter frame, and it came with 15X100 front through axles and crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to 12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my more recent Synapse -- and my son just sent me some Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on the Norco. The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to a 15mm through axle), I got one of these kits. Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads so I could thread-in the insert from the outside of the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a 12mm with a simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and I'll use that for my fat tire wheel set. The rear hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free hub body. It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec or ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl free hub body with two 6902 bearings and two more in the hub shell. The hub bearings felt great, but the free hub was really rough, so I knocked those out with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It was the perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair. Bearings in the mail. That wheel is otherwise disposable with a cheap rim with ragged spoke holes that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but it will be good for a second set. It is amazing that relatively expensive bikes now come with junky wheels suitable only for holding-up the bike on the showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between the 40's and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy cyclocross wheels that are 38 mm deep and my top speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon wheels is exactly the same. I have this idea that just about any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you exactly the same performance. Hambini keeps saying that you have to have 50 mm and 23 mm front tire but I think that is windtunnel and not practical information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so I wouldn't know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp 404s on a Roubaix in Utah. What I noticed with those was cross winds. It was unpleasant, particularly when descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel any faster, probably because I was inhaling thick smoke. Nobody was out riding. A very post-apocalyptic vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared to the Emonda, and the front end was a little too plush because I underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal width rim also rides pretty plush. No seal squeaking like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It is a gravel bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet of climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my house. Like Frank, it was really just a glorified run to the hardware store. I wish I had a N95 mask for the smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called hypercapnia, or excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can damage your airways. As someone with damaged airways take my word for it that it is not something you should volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden mental confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests were run on people not heavily exercising. As usual, their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my Madone and was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end bikes has gone absolutely through the ceiling. I may sell my Madone off and use the results to pay my property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more than three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property taxes that is a good idea, but please make up your mind it is getting very confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though. My son is always telling me about the newest Specialized bikes, including the new super-secret ones that I can't mention, and then he asks me to guess the price for the S-Works founders edition of the bike. The numbers are staggering and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get you close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by 20% or more. I don't think manufacturing costs have risen nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs (but I doubt it). I think it is just market elasticity.

-- Jay Beattie.


or Veblen.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/13/2020 2:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 1:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou
Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7,
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/


I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super
close-out sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017
as a quick replacement for my broken commuter frame,
and it came with 15X100 front through axles and
crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to
12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my
more recent Synapse -- and my son just sent me some
Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on the Norco.
The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through
axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new
axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to
a 15mm through axle), I got one of these kits.
Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the
YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads
so I could thread-in the insert from the outside of
the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm
through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a
12mm with a simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and
I'll use that for my fat tire wheel set. The rear
hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free hub body.
It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec or
ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl
free hub body with two 6902 bearings and two more in
the hub shell. The hub bearings felt great, but the
free hub was really rough, so I knocked those out
with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It
was the perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair.
Bearings in the mail. That wheel is otherwise
disposable with a cheap rim with ragged spoke holes
that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but
it will be good for a second set. It is amazing that
relatively expensive bikes now come with junky
wheels suitable only for holding-up the bike on the
showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between
the 40's and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy
cyclocross wheels that are 38 mm deep and my top
speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon wheels is
exactly the same. I have this idea that just about
any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you
exactly the same performance. Hambini keeps saying
that you have to have 50 mm and 23 mm front tire but
I think that is windtunnel and not practical
information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so
I wouldn't know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp
404s on a Roubaix in Utah. What I noticed with those
was cross winds. It was unpleasant, particularly when
descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments
coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel
any faster, probably because I was inhaling thick
smoke. Nobody was out riding. A very post-apocalyptic
vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared
to the Emonda, and the front end was a little too
plush because I underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal
width rim also rides pretty plush. No seal squeaking
like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It is a gravel
bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly
racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet
of climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my
house. Like Frank, it was really just a glorified run
to the hardware store. I wish I had a N95 mask for the
smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called
hypercapnia, or excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can
damage your airways. As someone with damaged airways
take my word for it that it is not something you should
volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden mental
confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on
answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests
were run on people not heavily exercising. As usual,
their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my
Madone and was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end
bikes has gone absolutely through the ceiling. I may
sell my Madone off and use the results to pay my
property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more than
three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property
taxes that is a good idea, but please make up your mind
it is getting very confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though. My son is
always telling me about the newest Specialized bikes,
including the new super-secret ones that I can't mention,
and then he asks me to guess the price for the S-Works
founders edition of the bike. The numbers are staggering
and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big
jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get
you close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by
20% or more. I don't think manufacturing costs have risen
nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs (but I doubt it). I
think it is just market elasticity.

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a
$7000 road bike really twice as good as a $3500 road bike?
Is it four times as good as a $1750 road bike? How much does
it increase your speed, or your riding comfort, your maximum
distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early 1970s)
said "I can't afford the best car in the world. I can't
afford the best stereo system in the world. But I can afford
the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance
benefits or longevity or anything practical. It was
essentially bragging rights and self satisfaction.



Almost no consumer items are a linear progression of
price/quality at the top end. Bicycles are not different or
special in that regard.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 23:36:22 UTC+2 schreef AMuzi:
On 9/13/2020 2:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 1:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou
Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7,
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/


I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super
close-out sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017
as a quick replacement for my broken commuter frame,
and it came with 15X100 front through axles and
crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to
12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my
more recent Synapse -- and my son just sent me some
Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on the Norco.
The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through
axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new
axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to
a 15mm through axle), I got one of these kits.
Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the
YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads
so I could thread-in the insert from the outside of
the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm
through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a
12mm with a simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and
I'll use that for my fat tire wheel set. The rear
hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free hub body.
It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec or
ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl
free hub body with two 6902 bearings and two more in
the hub shell. The hub bearings felt great, but the
free hub was really rough, so I knocked those out
with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It
was the perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair.
Bearings in the mail. That wheel is otherwise
disposable with a cheap rim with ragged spoke holes
that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but
it will be good for a second set. It is amazing that
relatively expensive bikes now come with junky
wheels suitable only for holding-up the bike on the
showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between
the 40's and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy
cyclocross wheels that are 38 mm deep and my top
speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon wheels is
exactly the same. I have this idea that just about
any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you
exactly the same performance. Hambini keeps saying
that you have to have 50 mm and 23 mm front tire but
I think that is windtunnel and not practical
information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so
I wouldn't know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp
404s on a Roubaix in Utah. What I noticed with those
was cross winds. It was unpleasant, particularly when
descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments
coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel
any faster, probably because I was inhaling thick
smoke. Nobody was out riding. A very post-apocalyptic
vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared
to the Emonda, and the front end was a little too
plush because I underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal
width rim also rides pretty plush. No seal squeaking
like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It is a gravel
bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly
racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet
of climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my
house. Like Frank, it was really just a glorified run
to the hardware store. I wish I had a N95 mask for the
smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called
hypercapnia, or excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can
damage your airways. As someone with damaged airways
take my word for it that it is not something you should
volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden mental
confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on
answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests
were run on people not heavily exercising. As usual,
their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my
Madone and was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end
bikes has gone absolutely through the ceiling. I may
sell my Madone off and use the results to pay my
property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more than
three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property
taxes that is a good idea, but please make up your mind
it is getting very confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though. My son is
always telling me about the newest Specialized bikes,
including the new super-secret ones that I can't mention,
and then he asks me to guess the price for the S-Works
founders edition of the bike. The numbers are staggering
and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big
jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get
you close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by
20% or more. I don't think manufacturing costs have risen
nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs (but I doubt it). I
think it is just market elasticity.

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a
$7000 road bike really twice as good as a $3500 road bike?
Is it four times as good as a $1750 road bike? How much does
it increase your speed, or your riding comfort, your maximum
distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early 1970s)
said "I can't afford the best car in the world. I can't
afford the best stereo system in the world. But I can afford
the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance
benefits or longevity or anything practical. It was
essentially bragging rights and self satisfaction.


Almost no consumer items are a linear progression of
price/quality at the top end. Bicycles are not different or
special in that regard.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Right and everyone has his own sweet-spot. Like many other products buying a bicycle is not completely a rational decision.

Lou

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 2:36:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 2:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 1:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou
Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7,
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/


I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super
close-out sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017
as a quick replacement for my broken commuter frame,
and it came with 15X100 front through axles and
crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to
12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my
more recent Synapse -- and my son just sent me some
Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on the Norco.
The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through
axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new
axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to
a 15mm through axle), I got one of these kits.
Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the
YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads
so I could thread-in the insert from the outside of
the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm
through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a
12mm with a simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and
I'll use that for my fat tire wheel set. The rear
hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free hub body.
It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec or
ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl
free hub body with two 6902 bearings and two more in
the hub shell. The hub bearings felt great, but the
free hub was really rough, so I knocked those out
with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It
was the perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair.
Bearings in the mail. That wheel is otherwise
disposable with a cheap rim with ragged spoke holes
that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but
it will be good for a second set. It is amazing that
relatively expensive bikes now come with junky
wheels suitable only for holding-up the bike on the
showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between
the 40's and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy
cyclocross wheels that are 38 mm deep and my top
speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon wheels is
exactly the same. I have this idea that just about
any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you
exactly the same performance. Hambini keeps saying
that you have to have 50 mm and 23 mm front tire but
I think that is windtunnel and not practical
information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so
I wouldn't know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp
404s on a Roubaix in Utah. What I noticed with those
was cross winds. It was unpleasant, particularly when
descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments
coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel
any faster, probably because I was inhaling thick
smoke. Nobody was out riding. A very post-apocalyptic
vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared
to the Emonda, and the front end was a little too
plush because I underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal
width rim also rides pretty plush. No seal squeaking
like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It is a gravel
bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly
racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet
of climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my
house. Like Frank, it was really just a glorified run
to the hardware store. I wish I had a N95 mask for the
smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called
hypercapnia, or excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can
damage your airways. As someone with damaged airways
take my word for it that it is not something you should
volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden mental
confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on
answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests
were run on people not heavily exercising. As usual,
their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my
Madone and was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end
bikes has gone absolutely through the ceiling. I may
sell my Madone off and use the results to pay my
property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more than
three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property
taxes that is a good idea, but please make up your mind
it is getting very confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though. My son is
always telling me about the newest Specialized bikes,
including the new super-secret ones that I can't mention,
and then he asks me to guess the price for the S-Works
founders edition of the bike. The numbers are staggering
and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big
jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get
you close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by
20% or more. I don't think manufacturing costs have risen
nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs (but I doubt it). I
think it is just market elasticity.

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a
$7000 road bike really twice as good as a $3500 road bike?
Is it four times as good as a $1750 road bike? How much does
it increase your speed, or your riding comfort, your maximum
distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early 1970s)
said "I can't afford the best car in the world. I can't
afford the best stereo system in the world. But I can afford
the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance
benefits or longevity or anything practical. It was
essentially bragging rights and self satisfaction.


Almost no consumer items are a linear progression of
price/quality at the top end. Bicycles are not different or
special in that regard.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
A comedy routine: I was sitting in a Jack-in-te-box drinking a coffee on a long ride. Behind the JintheB there were three parking spots that were well away from the rest of the stores in the mini-mall. There was the unmistakable sound of extreme power and some guy came driving into the parking lot in a Ford GT Shelby. It was one of the original all aluminum body ones without any paint on it. He cross all the way across the parking lot and parked it semi-sideway across two parking spots. There were dozens of parking spots near the stores so it was pretty clear that he was worried about his mega-million dollar car. From the sound of it, it was late enough to have the 427 in it. He got out and walked across the parking lot to some store all the way on the other side of the mini-mall. After he was out of sight, some one of the Hispanic punks driving a very early Honda Civic came racing into the parking lot and drove across and parks next to that Shelby, threw the door open against that aluminum body and left a large dent in the rear fender. And they wonder why America is building a wall.

On 9/13/2020 5:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 2:36:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 2:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 1:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou
Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7,
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/


I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super
close-out sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017
as a quick replacement for my broken commuter frame,
and it came with 15X100 front through axles and
crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to
12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my
more recent Synapse -- and my son just sent me some
Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on the Norco.
The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through
axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new
axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to
a 15mm through axle), I got one of these kits.
Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the
YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads
so I could thread-in the insert from the outside of
the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm
through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a
12mm with a simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and
I'll use that for my fat tire wheel set. The rear
hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free hub body.
It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec or
ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl
free hub body with two 6902 bearings and two more in
the hub shell. The hub bearings felt great, but the
free hub was really rough, so I knocked those out
with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It
was the perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair.
Bearings in the mail. That wheel is otherwise
disposable with a cheap rim with ragged spoke holes
that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but
it will be good for a second set. It is amazing that
relatively expensive bikes now come with junky
wheels suitable only for holding-up the bike on the
showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between
the 40's and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy
cyclocross wheels that are 38 mm deep and my top
speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon wheels is
exactly the same. I have this idea that just about
any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you
exactly the same performance. Hambini keeps saying
that you have to have 50 mm and 23 mm front tire but
I think that is windtunnel and not practical
information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so
I wouldn't know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp
404s on a Roubaix in Utah. What I noticed with those
was cross winds. It was unpleasant, particularly when
descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments
coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel
any faster, probably because I was inhaling thick
smoke. Nobody was out riding. A very post-apocalyptic
vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared
to the Emonda, and the front end was a little too
plush because I underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal
width rim also rides pretty plush. No seal squeaking
like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It is a gravel
bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly
racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet
of climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my
house. Like Frank, it was really just a glorified run
to the hardware store. I wish I had a N95 mask for the
smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called
hypercapnia, or excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can
damage your airways. As someone with damaged airways
take my word for it that it is not something you should
volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden mental
confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on
answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests
were run on people not heavily exercising. As usual,
their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my
Madone and was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end
bikes has gone absolutely through the ceiling. I may
sell my Madone off and use the results to pay my
property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more than
three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property
taxes that is a good idea, but please make up your mind
it is getting very confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though. My son is
always telling me about the newest Specialized bikes,
including the new super-secret ones that I can't mention,
and then he asks me to guess the price for the S-Works
founders edition of the bike. The numbers are staggering
and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big
jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get
you close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by
20% or more. I don't think manufacturing costs have risen
nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs (but I doubt it). I
think it is just market elasticity.

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a
$7000 road bike really twice as good as a $3500 road bike?
Is it four times as good as a $1750 road bike? How much does
it increase your speed, or your riding comfort, your maximum
distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early 1970s)
said "I can't afford the best car in the world. I can't
afford the best stereo system in the world. But I can afford
the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance
benefits or longevity or anything practical. It was
essentially bragging rights and self satisfaction.


Almost no consumer items are a linear progression of
price/quality at the top end. Bicycles are not different or
special in that regard.

A comedy routine: I was sitting in a Jack-in-te-box drinking a coffee on a long ride. Behind the JintheB there were three parking spots that were well away from the rest of the stores in the mini-mall. There was the unmistakable sound of extreme power and some guy came driving into the parking lot in a Ford GT Shelby. It was one of the original all aluminum body ones without any paint on it. He cross all the way across the parking lot and parked it semi-sideway across two parking spots. There were dozens of parking spots near the stores so it was pretty clear that he was worried about his mega-million dollar car. From the sound of it, it was late enough to have the 427 in it. He got out and walked across the parking lot to some store all the way on the other side of the mini-mall. After he was out of sight, some one of the Hispanic punks driving a very early Honda Civic came racing into the parking lot and drove across and parks next to that Shelby, threw the door open against tha
t aluminum body and left a large dent in the rear fender. And they wonder why America is building a wall.


??
You're positing that jerks of Mexican ancestry are somehow
different from jerks of central European ancestry like you
or of Italian like me? I think you're missing the point.

Don't get me wrong, immigration control is essential to the
essence of being a nation at all (ask the American Indians
about the lack of it) but this is not that. There are plenty
of jerks here in every flavor and effective border control
will not change that one bit.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/13/2020 5:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 12:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/


I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super close-out
sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017 as a quick replacement
for my broken commuter frame, and it came with 15X100 front
through axles and crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved
to 12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my more recent
Synapse -- and my son just sent me some Roval C38s to replace
the OE wheels on the Norco. The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm
front through axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new
axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to a 15mm
through axle), I got one of these kits. Sweet. Install was a
little more labored than the YouTube video because I had to
clean up the threads so I could thread-in the insert from the
outside of the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm
through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a 12mm with a
simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and I'll use that for my fat
tire wheel set. The rear hub felt rough, so I pulled off the
free hub body. It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec
or ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl free hub
body with two 6902 bearings and two more in the hub shell. The
hub bearings felt great, but the free hub was really rough, so I
knocked those out with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It was the
perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair. Bearings in the mail.
That wheel is otherwise disposable with a cheap rim with ragged
spoke holes that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but
it will be good for a second set. It is amazing that relatively
expensive bikes now come with junky wheels suitable only for
holding-up the bike on the showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between the 40's
and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy cyclocross wheels that
are 38 mm deep and my top speed with those and the 50 mm aero
carbon wheels is exactly the same. I have this idea that just
about any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you exactly the
same performance. Hambini keeps saying that you have to have 50
mm and 23 mm front tire but I think that is windtunnel and not
practical information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so I wouldn't
know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp 404s on a Roubaix in
Utah. What I noticed with those was cross winds. It was
unpleasant, particularly when descending fast. There were some "oh
sh**" moments coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel any faster,
probably because I was inhaling thick smoke. Nobody was out
riding. A very post-apocalyptic vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared to the
Emonda, and the front end was a little too plush because I
underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal width rim also rides pretty
plush. No seal squeaking like on the OE wheels and no disc drag.
It is a gravel bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel
terribly racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet of
climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my house. Like Frank,
it was really just a glorified run to the hardware store. I wish I
had a N95 mask for the smoke, although it would make huffing up
hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called hypercapnia, or
excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can damage your airways. As
someone with damaged airways take my word for it that it is not
something you should volunteer for. It has been known to cause
sudden mental confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on
answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests were run on
people not heavily exercising. As usual, their game is to support
the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my Madone and
was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end bikes has gone
absolutely through the ceiling. I may sell my Madone off and use the
results to pay my property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need
more than three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property taxes that
is a good idea, but please make up your mind it is getting very
confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though.Â* My son is always
telling me about the newest Specialized bikes, including the new
super-secret ones that I can't mention, and then he asks me to guess
the price for the S-Works founders edition of the bike.Â* The numbers
are staggering and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with
big jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get you
close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by 20% or more. I
don't think manufacturing costs have risen nearly that much -- maybe
its tariffs (but I doubt it).Â* I think it is just market elasticity.

-- Jay Beattie.


or Veblen.

I'd bet on that.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/13/2020 3:34 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

... And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a $7000 road bike
really twice as good as a $3500 road bike? Is it four times as good as a
$1750 road bike? How much does it increase your speed, or your riding
comfort, your maximum distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

Of course not. Diminishing returns is one of the constants of the universe.
Is a $50 steak twice as good as a $25 steak? Is a $1,000,000 Ferrari twice
as good as a $500,000 Jaguar? There exists a continuum of price-value
points because different people have different internal values for a
dollar.

And as Andrew implied, as price point rises the "value" tends more and
more to include a display of conspicuous consumption.

It's not illegal, and I'm not saying it should be. But it seems shallow
to use conspicuous consumption to gain status, or to respond to it by
conferring status. Surely there are better measures of a person's worth.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/13/2020 3:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 12:06:53 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a $7000 road bike
really twice as good as a $3500 road bike? Is it four times as good as a
$1750 road bike? How much does it increase your speed, or your riding
comfort, your maximum distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early 1970s) said "I
can't afford the best car in the world. I can't afford the best stereo
system in the world. But I can afford the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance benefits or
longevity or anything practical. It was essentially bragging rights and
self satisfaction.

So you never bought a bike that was expensive simply because you wanted it?

Actually, no. I've bought a few bikes that stretched the budget, or
seemed expensive (although probably not to certain posters here) but all
were careful and rational decisions. All worked out very well.

Our biggest stretch was probably the custom tandem, bought when most
people would probably have said we should have put the money into our
very meager savings account. As I told a woman yesterday (who was
admiring it), it proved to be one of the best purchases we ever made.

--
- Frank Krygowski