JJP&E Through Axle Conversion Kit

On 9/13/2020 5:36 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 2:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 1:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou
Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7,
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/



I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super
close-out sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017
as a quick replacement for my broken commuter frame,
and it came with 15X100 front through axles and
crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to
12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my
more recent Synapse -- and my son just sent me some
Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on the Norco.
The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through
axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new
axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to
a 15mm through axle), I got one of these kits.
Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the
YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads
so I could thread-in the insert from the outside of
the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm
through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a
12mm with a simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and
I'll use that for my fat tire wheel set. The rear
hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free hub body.
It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec or
ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl
free hub body with two 6902 bearings and two more in
the hub shell. The hub bearings felt great, but the
free hub was really rough, so I knocked those out
with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It
was the perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair.
Bearings in the mail. That wheel is otherwise
disposable with a cheap rim with ragged spoke holes
that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but
it will be good for a second set. It is amazing that
relatively expensive bikes now come with junky
wheels suitable only for holding-up the bike on the
showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between
the 40's and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy
cyclocross wheels that are 38 mm deep and my top
speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon wheels is
exactly the same. I have this idea that just about
any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you
exactly the same performance. Hambini keeps saying
that you have to have 50 mm and 23 mm front tire but
I think that is windtunnel and not practical
information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so
I wouldn't know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp
404s on a Roubaix in Utah. What I noticed with those
was cross winds. It was unpleasant, particularly when
descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments
coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel
any faster, probably because I was inhaling thick
smoke. Nobody was out riding. A very post-apocalyptic
vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared
to the Emonda, and the front end was a little too
plush because I underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal
width rim also rides pretty plush. No seal squeaking
like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It is a gravel
bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly
racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet
of climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my
house. Like Frank, it was really just a glorified run
to the hardware store. I wish I had a N95 mask for the
smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called
hypercapnia, or excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can
damage your airways. As someone with damaged airways
take my word for it that it is not something you should
volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden mental
confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on
answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests
were run on people not heavily exercising. As usual,
their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my
Madone and was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end
bikes has gone absolutely through the ceiling. I may
sell my Madone off and use the results to pay my
property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more than
three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property
taxes that is a good idea, but please make up your mind
it is getting very confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though.Â* My son is
always telling me about the newest Specialized bikes,
including the new super-secret ones that I can't mention,
and then he asks me to guess the price for the S-Works
founders edition of the bike.Â* The numbers are staggering
and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big
jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get
you close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by
20% or more. I don't think manufacturing costs have risen
nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs (but I doubt it).Â* I
think it is just market elasticity.

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a
$7000 road bike really twice as good as a $3500 road bike?
Is it four times as good as a $1750 road bike? How much does
it increase your speed, or your riding comfort, your maximum
distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early 1970s)
said "I can't afford the best car in the world. I can't
afford the best stereo system in the world. But I can afford
the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance
benefits or longevity or anything practical. It was
essentially bragging rights and self satisfaction.



Almost no consumer items are a linear progression of price/quality at
the top end. Bicycles are not different or special in that regard.

You're right, of course. I'm sure I could make the same point on
discussion groups devoted to airplanes, violins, wine, goldfish...

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/13/2020 7:59 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 5:36 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 2:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 1:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou
Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7,
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/



I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super
close-out sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017
as a quick replacement for my broken commuter frame,
and it came with 15X100 front through axles and
crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to
12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my
more recent Synapse -- and my son just sent me some
Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on the Norco.
The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through
axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new
axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to
a 15mm through axle), I got one of these kits.
Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the
YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads
so I could thread-in the insert from the outside of
the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm
through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a
12mm with a simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and
I'll use that for my fat tire wheel set. The rear
hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free hub body.
It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec or
ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl
free hub body with two 6902 bearings and two more in
the hub shell. The hub bearings felt great, but the
free hub was really rough, so I knocked those out
with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It
was the perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair.
Bearings in the mail. That wheel is otherwise
disposable with a cheap rim with ragged spoke holes
that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but
it will be good for a second set. It is amazing that
relatively expensive bikes now come with junky
wheels suitable only for holding-up the bike on the
showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between
the 40's and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy
cyclocross wheels that are 38 mm deep and my top
speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon wheels is
exactly the same. I have this idea that just about
any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you
exactly the same performance. Hambini keeps saying
that you have to have 50 mm and 23 mm front tire but
I think that is windtunnel and not practical
information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so
I wouldn't know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp
404s on a Roubaix in Utah. What I noticed with those
was cross winds. It was unpleasant, particularly when
descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments
coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel
any faster, probably because I was inhaling thick
smoke. Nobody was out riding. A very post-apocalyptic
vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared
to the Emonda, and the front end was a little too
plush because I underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal
width rim also rides pretty plush. No seal squeaking
like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It is a gravel
bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly
racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet
of climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my
house. Like Frank, it was really just a glorified run
to the hardware store. I wish I had a N95 mask for the
smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called
hypercapnia, or excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can
damage your airways. As someone with damaged airways
take my word for it that it is not something you should
volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden mental
confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on
answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests
were run on people not heavily exercising. As usual,
their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my
Madone and was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end
bikes has gone absolutely through the ceiling. I may
sell my Madone off and use the results to pay my
property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more than
three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property
taxes that is a good idea, but please make up your mind
it is getting very confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though. My son is
always telling me about the newest Specialized bikes,
including the new super-secret ones that I can't mention,
and then he asks me to guess the price for the S-Works
founders edition of the bike. The numbers are staggering
and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big
jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get
you close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by
20% or more. I don't think manufacturing costs have risen
nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs (but I doubt it). I
think it is just market elasticity.

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a
$7000 road bike really twice as good as a $3500 road bike?
Is it four times as good as a $1750 road bike? How much does
it increase your speed, or your riding comfort, your maximum
distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early 1970s)
said "I can't afford the best car in the world. I can't
afford the best stereo system in the world. But I can afford
the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance
benefits or longevity or anything practical. It was
essentially bragging rights and self satisfaction.



Almost no consumer items are a linear progression of
price/quality at the top end. Bicycles are not different
or special in that regard.

You're right, of course. I'm sure I could make the same
point on discussion groups devoted to airplanes, violins,
wine, goldfish...


....tandem bicycles, academic staff pensions...

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/13/2020 9:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 7:59 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 5:36 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 2:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 1:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou
Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7,
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/




I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super
close-out sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017
as a quick replacement for my broken commuter frame,
and it came with 15X100 front through axles and
crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to
12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my
more recent Synapse -- and my son just sent me some
Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on the Norco.
The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through
axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new
axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to
a 15mm through axle), I got one of these kits.
Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the
YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads
so I could thread-in the insert from the outside of
the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm
through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a
12mm with a simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and
I'll use that for my fat tire wheel set. The rear
hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free hub body.
It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec or
ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl
free hub body with two 6902 bearings and two more in
the hub shell. The hub bearings felt great, but the
free hub was really rough, so I knocked those out
with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It
was the perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair.
Bearings in the mail. That wheel is otherwise
disposable with a cheap rim with ragged spoke holes
that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but
it will be good for a second set. It is amazing that
relatively expensive bikes now come with junky
wheels suitable only for holding-up the bike on the
showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between
the 40's and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy
cyclocross wheels that are 38 mm deep and my top
speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon wheels is
exactly the same. I have this idea that just about
any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you
exactly the same performance. Hambini keeps saying
that you have to have 50 mm and 23 mm front tire but
I think that is windtunnel and not practical
information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so
I wouldn't know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp
404s on a Roubaix in Utah. What I noticed with those
was cross winds. It was unpleasant, particularly when
descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments
coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel
any faster, probably because I was inhaling thick
smoke. Nobody was out riding. A very post-apocalyptic
vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared
to the Emonda, and the front end was a little too
plush because I underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal
width rim also rides pretty plush. No seal squeaking
like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It is a gravel
bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly
racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet
of climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my
house. Like Frank, it was really just a glorified run
to the hardware store. I wish I had a N95 mask for the
smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called
hypercapnia, or excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can
damage your airways. As someone with damaged airways
take my word for it that it is not something you should
volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden mental
confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on
answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests
were run on people not heavily exercising. As usual,
their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my
Madone and was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end
bikes has gone absolutely through the ceiling. I may
sell my Madone off and use the results to pay my
property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more than
three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property
taxes that is a good idea, but please make up your mind
it is getting very confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though.ÂÂ* My son is
always telling me about the newest Specialized bikes,
including the new super-secret ones that I can't mention,
and then he asks me to guess the price for the S-Works
founders edition of the bike.ÂÂ* The numbers are staggering
and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big
jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get
you close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by
20% or more. I don't think manufacturing costs have risen
nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs (but I doubt it).ÂÂ* I
think it is just market elasticity.

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a
$7000 road bike really twice as good as a $3500 road bike?
Is it four times as good as a $1750 road bike? How much does
it increase your speed, or your riding comfort, your maximum
distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early 1970s)
said "I can't afford the best car in the world. I can't
afford the best stereo system in the world. But I can afford
the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance
benefits or longevity or anything practical. It was
essentially bragging rights and self satisfaction.



Almost no consumer items are a linear progression of
price/quality at the top end. Bicycles are not different
or special in that regard.

You're right, of course. I'm sure I could make the same
point on discussion groups devoted to airplanes, violins,
wine, goldfish...


...tandem bicycles, academic staff pensions...

Hey, tandem bicycles are a good topic for this group! Discuss away!

Regarding academia, I'd prefer to discuss the value of tenure. Spoiler:
I'm against it, as it's currently configured.

But we can discuss pensions too, as long as I don't have to divulge too
much personal information. (No, you can't have the name of my first pet.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/13/2020 8:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 9:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 7:59 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 5:36 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 2:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 1:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou
Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7,
Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7,
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/




I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super
close-out sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017
as a quick replacement for my broken commuter
frame,
and it came with 15X100 front through axles and
crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to
12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my
more recent Synapse -- and my son just sent me some
Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on the Norco.
The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through
axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new
axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED
Ardennes to
a 15mm through axle), I got one of these kits.
Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the
YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads
so I could thread-in the insert from the outside of
the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm
through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a
12mm with a simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and
I'll use that for my fat tire wheel set. The rear
hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free hub body.
It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or
Novatec or
ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl
free hub body with two 6902 bearings and two
more in
the hub shell. The hub bearings felt great, but the
free hub was really rough, so I knocked those out
with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing
project. It
was the perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair.
Bearings in the mail. That wheel is otherwise
disposable with a cheap rim with ragged spoke holes
that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but
it will be good for a second set. It is amazing
that
relatively expensive bikes now come with junky
wheels suitable only for holding-up the bike on the
showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all
between
the 40's and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy
cyclocross wheels that are 38 mm deep and my top
speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon wheels is
exactly the same. I have this idea that just about
any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you
exactly the same performance. Hambini keeps saying
that you have to have 50 mm and 23 mm front tire but
I think that is windtunnel and not practical
information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so
I wouldn't know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp
404s on a Roubaix in Utah. What I noticed with those
was cross winds. It was unpleasant, particularly when
descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments
coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel
any faster, probably because I was inhaling thick
smoke. Nobody was out riding. A very post-apocalyptic
vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering
compared
to the Emonda, and the front end was a little too
plush because I underinflated my tire. A 21mm
internal
width rim also rides pretty plush. No seal squeaking
like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It is a
gravel
bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly
racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet
of climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my
house. Like Frank, it was really just a glorified run
to the hardware store. I wish I had a N95 mask for
the
smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called
hypercapnia, or excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can
damage your airways. As someone with damaged airways
take my word for it that it is not something you
should
volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden
mental
confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on
answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests
were run on people not heavily exercising. As usual,
their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my
Madone and was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end
bikes has gone absolutely through the ceiling. I may
sell my Madone off and use the results to pay my
property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more
than
three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your
property
taxes that is a good idea, but please make up your mind
it is getting very confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though. My
son is
always telling me about the newest Specialized bikes,
including the new super-secret ones that I can't mention,
and then he asks me to guess the price for the S-Works
founders edition of the bike. The numbers are
staggering
and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big
jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get
you close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by
20% or more. I don't think manufacturing costs have risen
nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs (but I doubt
it). I
think it is just market elasticity.

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a
$7000 road bike really twice as good as a $3500 road bike?
Is it four times as good as a $1750 road bike? How much
does
it increase your speed, or your riding comfort, your
maximum
distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early
1970s)
said "I can't afford the best car in the world. I can't
afford the best stereo system in the world. But I can
afford
the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance
benefits or longevity or anything practical. It was
essentially bragging rights and self satisfaction.



Almost no consumer items are a linear progression of
price/quality at the top end. Bicycles are not different
or special in that regard.

You're right, of course. I'm sure I could make the same
point on discussion groups devoted to airplanes, violins,
wine, goldfish...


...tandem bicycles, academic staff pensions...

Hey, tandem bicycles are a good topic for this group!
Discuss away!

Regarding academia, I'd prefer to discuss the value of
tenure. Spoiler: I'm against it, as it's currently configured.

But we can discuss pensions too, as long as I don't have to
divulge too much personal information. (No, you can't have
the name of my first pet.)


I only mentioned them because you so frequently claim to
live outside normal economic phenomena. Tandems are a great
example, your typical quality tandem being $5000 to $12000
versus $500 for a department store 7 speed.

I don't know or care about your personal finances. I do know
many (most?) people with no pension and a few who still work
every day in their mid to late 70s, having never paid SS
tax. The range of variance is staggering, just like
'bicycles' to 'modern top end carbon bicycles'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:40:07 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 5:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 12:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/


I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super close-out
sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017 as a quick replacement
for my broken commuter frame, and it came with 15X100 front
through axles and crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved
to 12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my more recent
Synapse -- and my son just sent me some Roval C38s to replace
the OE wheels on the Norco. The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm
front through axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new
axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to a 15mm
through axle), I got one of these kits. Sweet. Install was a
little more labored than the YouTube video because I had to
clean up the threads so I could thread-in the insert from the
outside of the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm
through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a 12mm with a
simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and I'll use that for my fat
tire wheel set. The rear hub felt rough, so I pulled off the
free hub body. It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec
or ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl free hub
body with two 6902 bearings and two more in the hub shell. The
hub bearings felt great, but the free hub was really rough, so I
knocked those out with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It was the
perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair. Bearings in the mail.
That wheel is otherwise disposable with a cheap rim with ragged
spoke holes that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but
it will be good for a second set. It is amazing that relatively
expensive bikes now come with junky wheels suitable only for
holding-up the bike on the showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between the 40's
and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy cyclocross wheels that
are 38 mm deep and my top speed with those and the 50 mm aero
carbon wheels is exactly the same. I have this idea that just
about any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you exactly the
same performance. Hambini keeps saying that you have to have 50
mm and 23 mm front tire but I think that is windtunnel and not
practical information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so I wouldn't
know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp 404s on a Roubaix in
Utah. What I noticed with those was cross winds. It was
unpleasant, particularly when descending fast. There were some "oh
sh**" moments coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel any faster,
probably because I was inhaling thick smoke. Nobody was out
riding. A very post-apocalyptic vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared to the
Emonda, and the front end was a little too plush because I
underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal width rim also rides pretty
plush. No seal squeaking like on the OE wheels and no disc drag.
It is a gravel bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel
terribly racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet of
climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my house. Like Frank,
it was really just a glorified run to the hardware store. I wish I
had a N95 mask for the smoke, although it would make huffing up
hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called hypercapnia, or
excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can damage your airways. As
someone with damaged airways take my word for it that it is not
something you should volunteer for. It has been known to cause
sudden mental confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on
answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests were run on
people not heavily exercising. As usual, their game is to support
the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my Madone and
was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end bikes has gone
absolutely through the ceiling. I may sell my Madone off and use the
results to pay my property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need
more than three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property taxes that
is a good idea, but please make up your mind it is getting very
confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though.Â* My son is always
telling me about the newest Specialized bikes, including the new
super-secret ones that I can't mention, and then he asks me to guess
the price for the S-Works founders edition of the bike.Â* The numbers
are staggering and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with
big jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get you
close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by 20% or more. I
don't think manufacturing costs have risen nearly that much -- maybe
its tariffs (but I doubt it).Â* I think it is just market elasticity.

-- Jay Beattie.


or Veblen.

I'd bet on that.

There are people who are conspicuous consumers and then there are those people buying objects of desire. They're all crazy, but for different reasons.

I loved bikes as a kid and spent and incredible percentage of my income in college to buy custom bikes -- bikes that I could ride and race and pet and preen. I didn't care one bit whether anyone knew that my bikes were special. I eventually got over it (and got a girlfriend), but I still get that pang seeing a California Masi or a Mike Appel or an early Bruce Gordon or Eisentraut -- and quite a few modern steel builders. I just don't feel that way about carbon fiber, but at my height and weight, it is a far better material for me than steel. I prefer to ride it, but I'm not excited about owning it and looking at it and petting it like the olden days.

Modern bikes are an addiction for some of my son's work cohorts who spend crazy amounts on bikes. The latest Specialized bikes are not part of the company blem sales, and even with employee pricing, these guys are spending many thousands of dollars on top end bikes. I'm talking significant percentages of income. It's "I owe my soul to the company store." An intervention is in order.

-- Jay Beattie.

jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/


I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super close-out sale
from Western Bikeworks back in 2017 as a quick replacement for my
broken commuter frame, and it came with 15X100 front through axles
and crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to 12mm, so I
couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my more recent Synapse -- and my
son just sent me some Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on the
Norco. The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through axle. So
to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new axle bearing unit (to
convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to a 15mm through axle), I got one of
these kits. Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the
YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads so I could
thread-in the insert from the outside of the fork. Otherwise,
easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a 12mm with a simple
sleeve. The hub felt fine, and I'll use that for my fat tire wheel
set. The rear hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free hub body. It
is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec or ChiTek --
probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl free hub body with two 6902
bearings and two more in the hub shell. The hub bearings felt
great, but the free hub was really rough, so I knocked those out
with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had soldered on the end
from an old plumbing project. It was the perfect tool. Plumbing
meets bike repair. Bearings in the mail. That wheel is otherwise
disposable with a cheap rim with ragged spoke holes that zip
through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but it will be good for a
second set. It is amazing that relatively expensive bikes now come
with junky wheels suitable only for holding-up the bike on the showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between the 40's and
50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy cyclocross wheels that are 38
mm deep and my top speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon wheels
is exactly the same. I have this idea that just about any rim deeper
than about 24 mm would give you exactly the same performance.
Hambini keeps saying that you have to have 50 mm and 23 mm front
tire but I think that is windtunnel and not practical information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so I wouldn't know
-- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp 404s on a Roubaix in Utah. What
I noticed with those was cross winds. It was unpleasant, particularly
when descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments coming down
one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel any faster,
probably because I was inhaling thick smoke. Nobody was out riding. A very
post-apocalyptic vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared to the Emonda,
and the front end was a little too plush because I underinflated my
tire. A 21mm internal width rim also rides pretty plush. No seal
squeaking like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It is a gravel
bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly racy. I did a
whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet of climbing, rolling around
the West Hills near my house. Like Frank, it was really just a
glorified run to the hardware store. I wish I had a N95 mask for the
smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called hypercapnia, or
excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can damage your airways. As someone
with damaged airways take my word for it that it is not something you
should volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden mental
confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on answers.com they
claim it ain't so because the tests were run on people not heavily
exercising. As usual, their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my Madone and was
knocked almost flat. The cost of top end bikes has gone absolutely
through the ceiling. I may sell my Madone off and use the results to
pay my property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more than three
bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property taxes that is
a good idea, but please make up your mind it is getting very confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though. My son is always telling
me about the newest Specialized bikes, including the new super-secret
ones that I can't mention, and then he asks me to guess the price for the
S-Works founders edition of the bike. The numbers are staggering and
just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big jumps as compared to
just four years ago. $7K doesn't get you close to the top. Even the
Canyon offerings are up by 20% or more. I don't think manufacturing costs
have risen nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs (but I doubt it). I
think it is just market elasticity.

-- Jay Beattie.



That’s why I have a Specialized Tarmac Pro and not an S-Works. But hey, if
you have the money and it floats your boat, go for it.

On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 20:54:33 -0500,
AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 8:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 9:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 7:59 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 5:36 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 2:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 1:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou
Holtman wrote:

OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your
property taxes that is a good idea, but please make up
your mind it is getting very confusing.

His point about top-end bikes is true, though.???????
My son is always telling me about the newest Specialized
bikes, including the new super-secret ones that I can't
mention, and then he asks me to guess the price for the
S-Works founders edition of the bike.??????? The numbers
are staggering and just keep going up into the
stratosphere -- with big jumps as compared to just four
years ago. $7K doesn't get you close to the top. Even the
Canyon offerings are up by 20% or more. I don't think
manufacturing costs have risen nearly that much -- maybe
its tariffs (but I doubt it).??????? I think it is just
market elasticity.

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a
$7000 road bike really twice as good as a $3500 road bike?
Is it four times as good as a $1750 road bike? How much
does it increase your speed, or your riding comfort, your
maximum distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early
1970s) said "I can't afford the best car in the world. I
can't afford the best stereo system in the world. But I
can afford the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance
benefits or longevity or anything practical. It was
essentially bragging rights and self satisfaction.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Often the case. In my situation, I had certain wishes in picking
a tandem--ability to pack it into suitcases, and absence of paint
(for least damage). So that ratcheted up the price pretty
dramatically.


Almost no consumer items are a linear progression of
price/quality at the top end. Bicycles are not different or
special in that regard.

You're right, of course. I'm sure I could make the same
point on discussion groups devoted to airplanes, violins,
wine, goldfish...

...tandem bicycles, academic staff pensions...

Hey, tandem bicycles are a good topic for this group! Discuss
away!

I only mentioned them because you so frequently claim to live
outside normal economic phenomena. Tandems are a great example,
your typical quality tandem being $5000 to $12000 versus $500
for a department store 7 speed.

True, to some extent. My second tandem ran about $12k, in part
for the reasons I mentioned above. My first one cost $1200 in
1996, and I sold it for $1k earlier this year. A very serviceable
Rodriguez, that had received a number of upgrades. So indeed
quite a variance.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 9/14/2020 9:42 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 20:54:33 -0500,
AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 8:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 9:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 7:59 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 5:36 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 2:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 1:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou
Holtman wrote:

OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your
property taxes that is a good idea, but please make up
your mind it is getting very confusing.

His point about top-end bikes is true, though.???????
My son is always telling me about the newest Specialized
bikes, including the new super-secret ones that I can't
mention, and then he asks me to guess the price for the
S-Works founders edition of the bike.??????? The numbers
are staggering and just keep going up into the
stratosphere -- with big jumps as compared to just four
years ago. $7K doesn't get you close to the top. Even the
Canyon offerings are up by 20% or more. I don't think
manufacturing costs have risen nearly that much -- maybe
its tariffs (but I doubt it).??????? I think it is just
market elasticity.

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a
$7000 road bike really twice as good as a $3500 road bike?
Is it four times as good as a $1750 road bike? How much
does it increase your speed, or your riding comfort, your
maximum distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early
1970s) said "I can't afford the best car in the world. I
can't afford the best stereo system in the world. But I
can afford the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance
benefits or longevity or anything practical. It was
essentially bragging rights and self satisfaction.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Often the case. In my situation, I had certain wishes in picking
a tandem--ability to pack it into suitcases, and absence of paint
(for least damage). So that ratcheted up the price pretty
dramatically.


Almost no consumer items are a linear progression of
price/quality at the top end. Bicycles are not different or
special in that regard.

You're right, of course. I'm sure I could make the same
point on discussion groups devoted to airplanes, violins,
wine, goldfish...

...tandem bicycles, academic staff pensions...

Hey, tandem bicycles are a good topic for this group! Discuss
away!

I only mentioned them because you so frequently claim to live
outside normal economic phenomena. Tandems are a great example,
your typical quality tandem being $5000 to $12000 versus $500
for a department store 7 speed.

True, to some extent. My second tandem ran about $12k, in part
for the reasons I mentioned above. My first one cost $1200 in
1996, and I sold it for $1k earlier this year. A very serviceable
Rodriguez, that had received a number of upgrades. So indeed
quite a variance.


Right. And I only mentioned the current range of popular
items. A custom carbon tandem can get expensive.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/13/2020 9:54 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 8:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 9:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 7:59 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 5:36 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 2:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 1:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou
Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7,
Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7,
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7,
jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/





I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super
close-out sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017
as a quick replacement for my broken commuter
frame,
and it came with 15X100 front through axles and
crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved to
12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my
more recent Synapse -- and my son just sent me some
Roval C38s to replace the OE wheels on the Norco.
The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm front through
axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new
axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED
Ardennes to
a 15mm through axle), I got one of these kits.
Sweet. Install was a little more labored than the
YouTube video because I had to clean up the threads
so I could thread-in the insert from the outside of
the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm
through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a
12mm with a simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and
I'll use that for my fat tire wheel set. The rear
hub felt rough, so I pulled off the free hub body.
It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or
Novatec or
ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl
free hub body with two 6902 bearings and two
more in
the hub shell. The hub bearings felt great, but the
free hub was really rough, so I knocked those out
with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing
project. It
was the perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair.
Bearings in the mail. That wheel is otherwise
disposable with a cheap rim with ragged spoke holes
that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but
it will be good for a second set. It is amazing
that
relatively expensive bikes now come with junky
wheels suitable only for holding-up the bike on the
showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all
between
the 40's and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy
cyclocross wheels that are 38 mm deep and my top
speed with those and the 50 mm aero carbon wheels is
exactly the same. I have this idea that just about
any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you
exactly the same performance. Hambini keeps saying
that you have to have 50 mm and 23 mm front tire but
I think that is windtunnel and not practical
information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so
I wouldn't know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp
404s on a Roubaix in Utah. What I noticed with those
was cross winds. It was unpleasant, particularly when
descending fast. There were some "oh sh**" moments
coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel
any faster, probably because I was inhaling thick
smoke. Nobody was out riding. A very post-apocalyptic
vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering
compared
to the Emonda, and the front end was a little too
plush because I underinflated my tire. A 21mm
internal
width rim also rides pretty plush. No seal squeaking
like on the OE wheels and no disc drag. It is a
gravel
bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel terribly
racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet
of climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my
house. Like Frank, it was really just a glorified run
to the hardware store. I wish I had a N95 mask for
the
smoke, although it would make huffing up hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called
hypercapnia, or excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can
damage your airways. As someone with damaged airways
take my word for it that it is not something you
should
volunteer for. It has been known to cause sudden
mental
confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on
answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests
were run on people not heavily exercising. As usual,
their game is to support the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my
Madone and was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end
bikes has gone absolutely through the ceiling. I may
sell my Madone off and use the results to pay my
property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need more
than
three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your
property
taxes that is a good idea, but please make up your mind
it is getting very confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though.ÂÂ* My
son is
always telling me about the newest Specialized bikes,
including the new super-secret ones that I can't mention,
and then he asks me to guess the price for the S-Works
founders edition of the bike.ÂÂ* The numbers are
staggering
and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with big
jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get
you close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by
20% or more. I don't think manufacturing costs have risen
nearly that much -- maybe its tariffs (but I doubt
it).ÂÂ* I
think it is just market elasticity.

And that raises a point about diminishing returns. Is a
$7000 road bike really twice as good as a $3500 road bike?
Is it four times as good as a $1750 road bike? How much
does
it increase your speed, or your riding comfort, your
maximum
distance, or anything beyond your bragging rights?

One of my earliest biking buddies (back in the early
1970s)
said "I can't afford the best car in the world. I can't
afford the best stereo system in the world. But I can
afford
the best bike in the world."

Note that his statement wasn't in terms of performance
benefits or longevity or anything practical. It was
essentially bragging rights and self satisfaction.



Almost no consumer items are a linear progression of
price/quality at the top end. Bicycles are not different
or special in that regard.

You're right, of course. I'm sure I could make the same
point on discussion groups devoted to airplanes, violins,
wine, goldfish...


...tandem bicycles, academic staff pensions...

Hey, tandem bicycles are a good topic for this group!
Discuss away!

Regarding academia, I'd prefer to discuss the value of
tenure. Spoiler: I'm against it, as it's currently configured.

But we can discuss pensions too, as long as I don't have to
divulge too much personal information. (No, you can't have
the name of my first pet.)


I only mentioned them because you so frequently claim to live outside
normal economic phenomena. Tandems are a great example, your typical
quality tandem being $5000 to $12000 versus $500 for a department store
7 speed.

In 2020 dollars, our tandem cost about $3100. In those days (the 1970s)
a custom builder seemed the only way to get a decent quality tandem. I
purposely sought out a builder who told me he would keep cost down by
reducing the detail finish work. For example, the chainstays are not
beautifully sculpted into the dropouts.

As I said, this tandem has proven to be one of the best purchases we
ever made - except for the disaster of the severely weak front fork,
previously described in detail. The bike works very well.

Are there better ones? Yes, the technology was advancing pretty rapidly
when we bought this one. If we had waited maybe three years, I imagine
this one would have been built following Santana's practice, and thus
been rigid enough for me to pedal while standing. But that could have
been achieved without spending $12000 in 2020 dollars.

I don't know or care about your personal finances. I do know many
(most?) people with no pension and a few who still work every day in
their mid to late 70s, having never paid SS tax. The range of variance
is staggering, just like 'bicycles' to 'modern top end carbon bicycles'.

Nobody doubts the wide range of prosperity. I hope nobody really doubts
the reality of diminishing returns and conspicuous consumption. Those
occur with tandems too, as with everything else.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/13/2020 10:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:40:07 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 5:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/13/2020 12:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 13 september 2020 om 18:01:23 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:00:31 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:53:30 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 2:07:10 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
This is a cool product:
https://theradavist.com/2020/06/conv...nversion-kits/


I got a 2016 Norco Search 105 gravel bike on super close-out
sale from Western Bikeworks back in 2017 as a quick replacement
for my broken commuter frame, and it came with 15X100 front
through axles and crappy OE wheels. Meanwhile, the market moved
to 12mm, so I couldn't swap-in the HED wheels on my more recent
Synapse -- and my son just sent me some Roval C38s to replace
the OE wheels on the Norco. The Rovals have DT350 hubs and 12mm
front through axle. So to avoid buying end-caps or a whole new
axle bearing unit (to convert a 12mm HED Ardennes to a 15mm
through axle), I got one of these kits. Sweet. Install was a
little more labored than the YouTube video because I had to
clean up the threads so I could thread-in the insert from the
outside of the fork. Otherwise, easy-peasy. I now have a 12mm
through axle Search.

I can easily convert the old 15mm front hub to a 12mm with a
simple sleeve. The hub felt fine, and I'll use that for my fat
tire wheel set. The rear hub felt rough, so I pulled off the
free hub body. It is some no-brand hub made by Joytec or Novatec
or ChiTek -- probably some tec, with a simple 4-pawl free hub
body with two 6902 bearings and two more in the hub shell. The
hub bearings felt great, but the free hub was really rough, so I
knocked those out with a 1/2" copper pipe stub with a cap I had
soldered on the end from an old plumbing project. It was the
perfect tool. Plumbing meets bike repair. Bearings in the mail.
That wheel is otherwise disposable with a cheap rim with ragged
spoke holes that zip through the cheesy aluminum nipples -- but
it will be good for a second set. It is amazing that relatively
expensive bikes now come with junky wheels suitable only for
holding-up the bike on the showroom floor.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tell me if you can feel any difference at all between the 40's
and 50 aero wheels. I have a set of Campy cyclocross wheels that
are 38 mm deep and my top speed with those and the 50 mm aero
carbon wheels is exactly the same. I have this idea that just
about any rim deeper than about 24 mm would give you exactly the
same performance. Hambini keeps saying that you have to have 50
mm and 23 mm front tire but I think that is windtunnel and not
practical information.
Well, the C38 are 38mm and the deepest rims I own, so I wouldn't
know -- except that I rode some 58mm Zipp 404s on a Roubaix in
Utah. What I noticed with those was cross winds. It was
unpleasant, particularly when descending fast. There were some "oh
sh**" moments coming down one of the canyons on a windy day.

I went for a short ride on the Norco and didn't feel any faster,
probably because I was inhaling thick smoke. Nobody was out
riding. A very post-apocalyptic vibe.

I did notice that the Norco has slow steering compared to the
Emonda, and the front end was a little too plush because I
underinflated my tire. A 21mm internal width rim also rides pretty
plush. No seal squeaking like on the OE wheels and no disc drag.
It is a gravel bike, so I'm not really expecting it to feel
terribly racy. I did a whopping 15 miles with maybe 1700 feet of
climbing, rolling around the West Hills near my house. Like Frank,
it was really just a glorified run to the hardware store. I wish I
had a N95 mask for the smoke, although it would make huffing up
hills hard.

-- Jay Beattie.
Masks while exercising can cause a condition called hypercapnia, or
excessive CO2 in your lungs, this can damage your airways. As
someone with damaged airways take my word for it that it is not
something you should volunteer for. It has been known to cause
sudden mental confusion and loss of balance. If you look this up on
answers.com they claim it ain't so because the tests were run on
people not heavily exercising. As usual, their game is to support
the left no matter what.
I decided to look to see what I could buy if I sell my Madone and
was knocked almost flat. The cost of top end bikes has gone
absolutely through the ceiling. I may sell my Madone off and use the
results to pay my property taxes. I don't suppose that I'll need
more than three bikes to always have a bike ready to go.


OK, if you need to sell a bike/frame to pay your property taxes that
is a good idea, but please make up your mind it is getting very
confusing.

Lou

His point about top-end bikes is true, though.Â* My son is always
telling me about the newest Specialized bikes, including the new
super-secret ones that I can't mention, and then he asks me to guess
the price for the S-Works founders edition of the bike.Â* The numbers
are staggering and just keep going up into the stratosphere -- with
big jumps as compared to just four years ago. $7K doesn't get you
close to the top. Even the Canyon offerings are up by 20% or more. I
don't think manufacturing costs have risen nearly that much -- maybe
its tariffs (but I doubt it).Â* I think it is just market elasticity.

-- Jay Beattie.


or Veblen.

I'd bet on that.

There are people who are conspicuous consumers and then there are those people buying objects of desire. They're all crazy, but for different reasons.

I loved bikes as a kid and spent and incredible percentage of my income in college to buy custom bikes -- bikes that I could ride and race and pet and preen. I didn't care one bit whether anyone knew that my bikes were special. I eventually got over it (and got a girlfriend), but I still get that pang seeing a California Masi or a Mike Appel or an early Bruce Gordon or Eisentraut -- and quite a few modern steel builders. I just don't feel that way about carbon fiber, but at my height and weight, it is a far better material for me than steel. I prefer to ride it, but I'm not excited about owning it and looking at it and petting it like the olden days.

Modern bikes are an addiction for some of my son's work cohorts who spend crazy amounts on bikes. The latest Specialized bikes are not part of the company blem sales, and even with employee pricing, these guys are spending many thousands of dollars on top end bikes. I'm talking significant percentages of income. It's "I owe my soul to the company store." An intervention is in order.

My wife and one of my kids both worked (at least part time) for Nashbar
when it was headquartered here. That gave us some good buys, including a
very special deal on our touring bikes.

But yes, the kid bought quite a lot of fancy components and a couple
fancy bikes. It's old technology now, but some of the components still
live in storage boxes in my workshop. Occasionally they get harvested.
That's why the three speed bike I just rode to the store has a titanium
bottom bracket!


--
- Frank Krygowski