Road Rage Moron

Yeah Right Wrote:
On Thu, 08 May 2008 10:21:24 +0800, verb wrote:



it doesnt matter what 'morality' or christianity' says,

scum who exact violence upon others should be removed from the gene
pool

(ie castrated and executed)


Um, isn't castrating and executing exacting violence upon others?

But yeah, the moron should be severely punished in the courts.

I read elsewhere that a semi-trailer right behind the group jacknifed,
and
almost wiped them out, and cars behind the semi had to swerve.

Good thing they got the number plates.

no, he should have his license removed for life and be forced to travel
the roads on a bike.


--
ProfTournesol

On Fri, 09 May 2008 02:17:51 GMT, TimC
wrote:

On 2008-05-09, EuanB (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Duncan Wrote:
btw: I find it astounding that the police have taken more than a day
to talk to this lunatic. They have the rego, why didn't they scoot
around there asap and have a quiet word?
All registration tells the police is who owns the car and the
residential address.

It doesn't tell the police where that person happens to be at a point
in time.

Further the incident has already happened, priority for police
resources would porbably have been given to inicidents where the police
can make a difference, leaving after the fact policing till quieter
times, which is sensible.

Except that it has been reported that this guy is already known to
police, which means he is already suspected of having offended in the
past, and will offend again. As such, I would have guessed he would
be one of their highest priority cases. Because he knows he is known
(and a description of him has been plastered all over the newspapers),
you can bet he's gone "missing". So we just have to wait for him to
turn up in Kalgoolie...

And for his sake, he better be hoping someone isn't going to rip out
his gonads through his throat, when he is found.

I predict he'll get off, if he's ever brought to trial. If a texting
driver can hit a cyclist in a bike lane at 100km/h, shed a few tears
at her trial and be let off with a slap on the wrist (it helps to be
blonde, I guess), or a drunk woman with several priors can drive
through a training bunch killing a cyclist, what hope do we have that
someone will get any penalty when nobody was killed.

Best remedy: sue the ******* for the damage to the bikes, the
potential loss of earnings, pain and suffering, etc. Take his assets.
Of course, that will only make him more aggressive towards cyclists
and the next bunch might not be so lucky.

--
Regards.
Richard.

cfsmtb Wrote:
In the complete absence of anything really sensible in the media
regarding yesterdays 'road rage' incident in Sydney, Alan Odds from the
newly-formed National Roads and Cyclists Association has issued this
press release:

NRCA: Evans inflames an already hostile situation
http://www.mynrca.com.au/road_rage.pdf

The simple fact is that the NRMA, Evans in particular, hate all non car
users and this hatred is particularly aimed at cyclist. As can be seen
by his organisations numerous attacks against us and the conclusions of
various 'studies' that the organisation quotes, but can never back up
with actual data.

Events like this unfortunately give him more opportunity to attack us
and wont let the facts of the event get in the way. Calling the time
that the riders were on the road as 'peak hour' is a bit rich
considering they were going the opposite direction of 99% of the traffic
on a three lane road.


--
jcjordan

jcjordan Wrote:
The simple fact is that the NRMA, Evans in particular, hate all non car
users and this hatred is particularly aimed at cyclist. As can be seen
by his organisations numerous attacks against us and the conclusions of
various 'studies' that the organisation quotes, but can never back up
with actual data.

Events like this unfortunately give him more opportunity to attack us
and wont let the facts of the event get in the way. Calling the time
that the riders were on the road as 'peak hour' is a bit rich
considering they were going the opposite direction of 99% of the traffic
on a three lane road.


A online petition has been created for NRMA members.
http://www.gopetition.com/online/19181.html

Details from site: NRMA, stop attacking cyclists or we will cancel our
membership

Category: Roads & Transport
Region: Australia
Target: Sydney
Description/History:
The NRMA is vocal in their opposition of the development of cycling
infrastructure in Sydney and is opposing the use of existing roads by
cyclists in Sydney during Peak hours.

Despite the increasing congestion, high fuel prices and climate change,
the NRMA continues to attack cycling as an alternative method of
personal transport for commuters and recreational users.

Cyclists have every right to use the States roads. Cyclists, as a
legitimate road user group, are growing in number in direct proportion
to the increasing fuel prices. Clearly, MORE cycling infrastructure is
required, not more car lanes.

Most cyclists are also car owners. A great many of these car owning
cyclists are NRMA members and IAG customers. I would ask these people to
reconsider their position on contributing money to an association that
opposes theirs, and their communities' cycling needs.


--
cfsmtb

cfsmtb wrote:

jcjordan Wrote:
The simple fact is that the NRMA, Evans in particular, hate all non car
users and this hatred is particularly aimed at cyclist. As can be seen
by his organisations numerous attacks against us and the conclusions of
various 'studies' that the organisation quotes, but can never back up
with actual data.

Events like this unfortunately give him more opportunity to attack us
and wont let the facts of the event get in the way. Calling the time
that the riders were on the road as 'peak hour' is a bit rich
considering they were going the opposite direction of 99% of the traffic
on a three lane road.

A online petition has been created for NRMA members.
http://www.gopetition.com/online/19181.html

Details from site: NRMA, stop attacking cyclists or we will cancel our
membership

Category: Roads & Transport
Region: Australia
Target: Sydney
Description/History:
The NRMA is vocal in their opposition of the development of cycling
infrastructure in Sydney and is opposing the use of existing roads by
cyclists in Sydney during Peak hours.

Despite the increasing congestion, high fuel prices and climate change,
the NRMA continues to attack cycling as an alternative method of
personal transport for commuters and recreational users.

Cyclists have every right to use the States roads. Cyclists, as a
legitimate road user group, are growing in number in direct proportion
to the increasing fuel prices. Clearly, MORE cycling infrastructure is
required, not more car lanes.

Most cyclists are also car owners. A great many of these car owning
cyclists are NRMA members and IAG customers. I would ask these people to
reconsider their position on contributing money to an association that
opposes theirs, and their communities' cycling needs.

--
cfsmtb

I'm a car owner, '86 Ford Laser, and a keen cyclist.

The trouble with democracy is that it isn't understood for what it is.

Its all very well for us cyclists to bleat about our rights, but
for me at least ANY discussion of rights also must be accompanied by
what duties of care are involved and attatched.

In a society where everyone claims a right for this and that, and nobody
spells out their willingness for duty of care to others, you have
anarchy, not democracy.
For example, although its law that cyclists are entitled to ride two
abreast
on roads, I damn well won't, too much risk to life, unless I am well out
on very lonely
country roads, and there i go single file if I am with others when I
hear a car coming up behind me
and there is no cycle lane.

So the argy bargy will always exist between cyclists and motorists
because
the motorists claim the cyclists don't practice duty of care, by holding
up car drivers
on the road, and getting in their way, running red lights, and forcing
car drivers to take risky evasive action
in tenuous situations.
Cyclists claim motorists are a bunch of Toads who antagonise cyclists.
Its been the same now ever since our great grandfather's rode old penny
farthings.

Lots of wrong on BOTH sides, from what I witness every day.

I hate driving a car on Sydney's roads, and cycling is an unpleasant
experience.
I don't ever see a future there for safe cycling.
Does anyone think the NSW State Government will spend a billion bucks
just
to please a tiny minority crew of mainly wingeing young men who insist
on riding bikes?
I don't think so.
So like it or hate it, the fact is that NOTHING MUCH will ever happen to
improve the
lot of the tiny cycling minority, such as dedicated cycle ways all
around Sydney
allowing good separation of motorists and cyclists.
And unless the cycleways or cycle paths are MORE convenient and smooth
surfaced than nearby roads.
many cyclists just won't use them, and motorists get the ****s when they
see cyclists
riding on the road where there is a cycle path which is empty of traffic
running right alongside the road.
All that expense for nothing they moan.

One could say cyclists should get down on their knees each evening and
pray to God or Allah
or the Snake Serpent that petrol will rise to $10.00 per litre in 6
months, and that
speed limits on roads within 30km radious of Sydney CBD be reduced to
30kph, and that
anyone within 20km radius of CBD must have a City Entry Certificate, CEC
which
is bought for $200 each month.

That ought to reduce traffic to densities about the same as 1950, but
the roads can ALL have a cycle lane both sides.

Pigs will be available for porcine flight before such draconian measures
are implemented.
Apart from the tiny minority of mainly young men ppl who ride much at
all,
trying to get the rest of the population onto bikes is like trying to
teach elephants to dance a polka.
People just ain't willing to bike it any more than they'd like to go
back
to horse and buggy days.

We all know that prayer doesn't work, and pigs don't fly,
and that Sydney looks set to just get a whole lot worser and bloody
worser.
I could see this in 1972, and I voted with my feet.

When I was young, I rode a motorcycle for most of my twenties.
Don't ask me how I survived with so many drunks on the road back then i
don't know.
By 26, I was SO GLAD to leave Sydney, a huge dump of a place which was
grossly dysfunctional in 1,001 different ways.

No apologies, but that's how I saw it. People were dominated by chasing
money and
traffic. Sydney is an alienating environment where hardly anyone I ever
knew there
knew how to be happy, and how not to worry.

I discovered Canberra, where someone actually bothered to plan a place
that grated less
on an ordinary human.
Then I discovered its cycle paths, also a result of planning them in
as a matter of course during suburban developments.

Even Canberra is slowly and surely being Chatswood-ised, or
Paramatta-ised,
and that's all **** where its happening; progress and growth, like
cancer to me.

But fortunately the town dysplanning muckeration is not universal,
and I can be in paddocks where cows and sheep graze peacefully
within 5 minutes of leaving home on a bicycle from my house in Watson
which is 6km out of
Canberra CDB, 'Civic', as its known.

Patrick Turner.

On May 9, 1:05 pm, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on Thu, 8 May 2008 20:02:08 -0700 (PDT)

Donga wrote:
On May 9, 12:44 pm, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
I'd say the semi trailer driver would be a useful independent witness.

Zebee

I'd say the 6-15 cyclists, all sentient beings, would be sufficient
for the average magistrate.

AS people involved, their evidence is not as trustworthy as those who
are not.

Not because they would deliberately lie, but because eyewitness
evidence is inherently difficult, involved (meaning shook up, angry)
witnesses are more so, witnesses who have ivolvement with others and
therefore may have had their recollection tainted by stories are also
difficult. There's a lot of research on that latter, in that most
people remember a memory not an incident, and that memory can be
changed by what others say.

Zebee

Zebee

Is that a legal opinion? My son was assaulted and the offender was
convicted on the basis of my son's testimony, plus the three other
bogans in the car with the offender. None too independent. Even rape
convictions can be secured on the basis of the testimony of the raped
person these days.

Donga

On May 9, 1:09 pm, terryc wrote:
On Thu, 08 May 2008 19:56:06 -0700, Donga wrote:
the police can be quite good at shaking (metaphorically) the driver's
identify out of an owner who is less legally aware.

Do you meant that the owner isn't automatically liable unless they
nominate another person?

I mean that police would not be so silly as to say "please tell us,
but you do not have to, who was driving if not you". The imagination
will readily provide ways this could be done.

In aus.bicycle on Sat, 10 May 2008 23:58:50 -0700 (PDT)
Donga wrote:

Is that a legal opinion? My son was assaulted and the offender was
convicted on the basis of my son's testimony, plus the three other
bogans in the car with the offender. None too independent. Even rape
convictions can be secured on the basis of the testimony of the raped
person these days.


I didn't say that involved witnesses were disbelieved. I said that
uninvolved were better.

Zebee

Patrick Turner writes:

cfsmtb wrote:
jcjordan Wrote:
The simple fact is that the NRMA, Evans in particular, hate all
non car users and this hatred is particularly aimed at cyclist.
...snip..
A online petition has been created for NRMA members.
http://www.gopetition.com/online/19181.html
...snip..
-- cfsmtb

I'm a car owner, '86 Ford Laser, and a keen cyclist.

...snip..

Lots of wrong on BOTH sides, from what I witness every day.

Sure is, the great Aussie road users have pretty much the same attitude
to each other whether they are on bikes or in cars.

I hate driving a car on Sydney's roads, and cycling is an unpleasant
...snip..

I discovered Canberra, where someone actually bothered to plan a place
that grated less on an ordinary human. Then I discovered its cycle
paths, also a result of planning them in as a matter of course during
suburban developments.

I really have to take exception with that; I grew up in Canberra, spent
some 20 years riding bikes to primary school, high school, university
and various places of work and found that its layout is designed for
speedy *car* transport, lots of roads with high average speeds -- hardly
what you want for riding. After-the-fact "cycle paths" were then put
in, twisting and winding this way and that through the parkland and
verges, crossing and recrossing the roads where at every intersection
you can be damn sure that the people on the cycle path give way to "real
traffic."

Yes, its better/easier to ride around Canberra than Sydney, but Canberra
was designed spread out with lots of roads because "in the future,
everyone will have a car!" -- it certainly wasn't designed for cycling.

Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra, regardless of the infrastructure, the
people you have to deal with are the problem, and *that* is the problem
that the governments and the cycling bodies refuse to deal with. More
painted lines and more bike paths doesn't mean less f'wits trying to run
me down everytime a bike lane ends, every time a bike path wasn't built
to duplicate the road I want to ride along.

Even Canberra is slowly and surely being Chatswood-ised, or
Paramatta-ised, and that's all **** where its happening; progress and
growth, like cancer to me.

But fortunately the town dysplanning muckeration is not universal, and
I can be in paddocks where cows and sheep graze peacefully within 5
minutes of leaving home on a bicycle from my house in Watson which is
6km out of Canberra CDB, 'Civic', as its known.

Patrick Turner.
Adrian

Adrian Tritschler wrote:

Patrick Turner writes:

cfsmtb wrote:
jcjordan Wrote:
The simple fact is that the NRMA, Evans in particular, hate all
non car users and this hatred is particularly aimed at cyclist.
..snip..
A online petition has been created for NRMA members.
http://www.gopetition.com/online/19181.html
..snip..
-- cfsmtb

I'm a car owner, '86 Ford Laser, and a keen cyclist.

..snip..

Lots of wrong on BOTH sides, from what I witness every day.

Sure is, the great Aussie road users have pretty much the same attitude
to each other whether they are on bikes or in cars.

I hate driving a car on Sydney's roads, and cycling is an unpleasant
..snip..

I discovered Canberra, where someone actually bothered to plan a place
that grated less on an ordinary human. Then I discovered its cycle
paths, also a result of planning them in as a matter of course during
suburban developments.

I really have to take exception with that; I grew up in Canberra, spent
some 20 years riding bikes to primary school, high school, university
and various places of work and found that its layout is designed for
speedy *car* transport, lots of roads with high average speeds -- hardly
what you want for riding.

I ride 200km a week on a mixture of different roads and cycle paths.

Its utterly dreamy compared to Sydney, where I grew up.

I often ride on outer or inner suburban roads in the middle of the day
and traffic is very quiet
and where I have to share a lane with motorists.
I simply avoid the busy roads where there is no cycle lane,
or where its unpleasant even where there is a cycle lane, like most of
Tuggeranong Parkway and Drakeford Drive.

I rarely go cycling in Queenbeyan.

After-the-fact "cycle paths" were then put
in, twisting and winding this way and that through the parkland and
verges, crossing and recrossing the roads where at every intersection
you can be damn sure that the people on the cycle path give way to "real
traffic."

True, many cycle paths didn't arrive until the population reached about
70,000.

Before that, people still rode bicycles, but traffic wasn't too bad.

I don't find the stopping and starting because of cycle path crossings
at roadways to be a problem.
In many cases the cycle path goes **UNDER** a busy road.

If I ride to Tuggeranong Town Centre from Watson, its roughly 29km on
the roads, and on a sunday morning
early it takes a slow old ******* like me just under an hour.
if I take the meandering cycle path via the lake, Woden, near Athlon
Drive,
maybe I add 8 minutes, and there are plenty of nice long stretches
between stops
where I can ride as fast as i want to pedal.

If you do try to stay on cycle paths in Canberra the slowing factor due
to bends, obstacles such as walkers, dogs, women with prams, dad & mum
out with toddlers,
and road crossings including "real traffic", et all, you will still get
VERY fit and VERY healthy
simply by being out there and getting from A to B, and delays are
minimal.

Just what on earth is a PRACTICAL alternative??

Yes, its better/easier to ride around Canberra than Sydney, but Canberra
was designed spread out with lots of roads because "in the future,
everyone will have a car!" -- it certainly wasn't designed for cycling.

You are technically correct. Walter Burley Griffin didn't formulate his
plans
for Canberra based on everyone riding bikes.

He designed a nice relaxed city spread out far and wide, and it left a
lot of room
for adding in things as we went along with implementing the town
planning.
Nobody really knew just how the car would be worshipped as the new God
of Mobility.

New suburbs now have their cycle paths added as a matter of course.


Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra, regardless of the infrastructure, the
people you have to deal with are the problem, and *that* is the problem
that the governments and the cycling bodies refuse to deal with. More
painted lines and more bike paths doesn't mean less f'wits trying to run
me down everytime a bike lane ends, every time a bike path wasn't built
to duplicate the road I want to ride along.

I can assure you that the basic problem you cite, ie, having to
get along with the flowing crowd is one nobody has ever solved very well
ever since the very first villages, towns and cities came into being
thousands of years ago.

People got trampled by horses in the horse power days, and I am sure
there was a risk to travel the roads due to the fuctard-****wit factor
wherever strangers
had to deal with each other.
A girl can safely drive to work, and maybe ride without being hassled,
but at any time before 1800, any girl would be stupid to
walk 10 miles alone on a public road.
A strong fit man would think twice about it.
Horses were the bicycles of the time, and its a long way to the ground
if you fell off one. No Medicare then either.
People lived in a way which avoided travel for most of their lives
prior to the industrial revolution.
The average lifespan was a surly low number of hard years....

I rode up and down Northbourne Ave before the cycle lanes went in.

It was a suicide derby on many days.

But now its **much** safer riding Northbourne with cycle lanes.

Some motorists remain ****ed off mightily because the lane width
was reduced from luxurious widths down to what is still wider than on
many Sydney roads.
Canberra Drivers are amoung the very worst, and are spoiled rotten.

Nobody ever gets exactly what they want, and the Governments cannot
collect enough taxation to make it a perfect world for all.
Its that simple.

Even Canberra is slowly and surely being Chatswood-ised, or
Paramatta-ised, and that's all **** where its happening; progress and
growth, like cancer to me.

But fortunately the town dysplanning muckeration is not universal, and
I can be in paddocks where cows and sheep graze peacefully within 5
minutes of leaving home on a bicycle from my house in Watson which is
6km out of Canberra CDB, 'Civic', as its known.

Patrick Turner.

I did spend 1981 in Sydney due to work, and as a young man I had lots of
fun
with night life and socials. I didn't ride a bicycle then.
I returned back home to Canberra in '82 where I own a house, and I was
very glad to be back again.
I bought a tourer bike from Spokesman Cycles, and had a lot of fun on
that.
In 1986, I began bike racing and trained 300km a week, mainly on roads,
but they were safer than Sydney's.
In 1988, again I spent a year in Sydney, and I found it had become much
busier,
and because I was based at Turramurra, I could ride the northside OK and
national Parks.
I used to often ride to Palm Beach for a swim.
I'd also ride up to Newcastle sometimes, but I did Gosford twice a week
in the
race season with a mate. The bit between Hornsby and Berowra before the
freeway
was finished was a real nightmare.

Occasionally I'd ride down the Pacific Hwy into Sydney CBD.
I must have been mad.

Semi trailer drivers were good though, zipping past with a foot
clearance at 80kph+

How I wasn't killed I really dunno.


After the job was over I again returned to the ACT with a massive sigh
of relief!!!

Now that I don't race, and because I feel hemmed in by bunch riding, I
prefer
riding alone, and to take in the view, the wildlife, and the smiles
on faces coming the other way.

In future, as oil and coal all their multiple by-products become
ruinously expensive
because there isn't enough supply, perhaps planning trends will
change to us humans all having to huddle together more tightly to reduce
travelling.

Somehow I think the car is hear to stay, but its design will change to
being lighter and much less thirsty.
The Chinese and Indians will lead the way with motor vehicle design.

GM in the US has no dsire to make cars light and cheap, and use vitually
no fuel.
( Remember the demise of the electric car GM leased out in 1996? )

Road design will change if there is more mainstream demand to suit
cyclists AND motorists.

In other words, if 25% of ppl driving to work suddenly
left the car at home and rode to work, there would be some radical
changes
needed to avoid the mahem that would initially result.
But when I look down Northbourne at 11am and see so many cars ahead of
me
and I'm the only cyclist, I cannot blame motorists for thinking
I am a spoiled brat on whom too much money has been spent.

I think humans will have to make some really huge changes to
many basic ideas about living if we want to stop
our activities leading to our extinction. Going **backwards**
to how China was say 25 years ago when the bicycle was the main means of
transport
is simply never going to ever happen in any western democracy
where folks can vote to maintain a status quo which long term is utterly
unsustainable.

Politician's speaches and their doings in governments are all about the
next 10 years max.
Most people vote for who's going to make them financially better off
next week.

With such wonderful clerverness, our species should be able to make a
real horrible mess after
another 200 years. Getting from now to then is now called progress.
I see the procession as an unfortunate planetary event.
But you never know, maybe technology will allow us to cling to the bosom
of the affluenza disease for just a little longer...

If everyone in the world drives a car, and needs 48kwH of generated
electrical power
PER DAY, like in most western democracies, then we'd need 6 more Planet
Earths.
Good town planning and a few people riding bicycles isn't going to
change a great deal.

Ever think what its like to live in say Burma, where one's carbon
footprint
is about as big as it ever ought to be? Its insecure, that's for sure,
especially after last week's stormy weather.

And not one Ozzy wants to live the way they live in Burma.

Looking at the traffic, you'd never think Oz ppl bought a million
bicycles last year....

I think they buy them to feel better. Like exercise machinery, they use
a the bike
once, and then it just gathers dust.....

They find our how awfully slow and boring it is to ride anywhere.
They become frightened by the motorists.
Arriving at work all sweaty means you need a shower. And you are dog
tired.

People won't use bicycles in a big way until things got very very crook
such as petrol going to $20 per litre.
Then you'd see rickshaws and all the other 3rd world transport methods
on the roads.
Cities depend on road transport to bring vast amounts of foood etc.
Petrol and deisel at $20 a litre would cause economic mahem.

To a villager in Burma earning $2 a day, a litre of petrol probably
seems to him like it would to us
if we had to pay $50 a litre. Even the simplest bicycle is expensive.
There are not many carbon fibre framed bicycles with all the gee whiz
gear on them in Burma.

Meanwhile in India, they cheer with delight over their mobile phones.
It means they can avoid a long ride to find out something.

Stop complaining, youse never addit so good :-) !!

Patrick Turner.







Adrian