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Ouch. This happened to me once



 
 
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  #41  
Old February 21st 18, 06:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 9,641
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/21/2018 9:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-20 19:00, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/20/2018 8:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/20/2018 2:54 PM, Joerg wrote:

It's not that American bike facility planners never mess
up but after having lived long enough in Germany, the
Netherland and the US I can rightfully say that the German
bike facility planners are the worst of the three groups.
By far.

We've just been looking at examples of American facilities
that did not work and British facilities that did not work.
Jay has talked at length about the faults with many of
Portland's bike facilities. (Their bike boxes, installed to
reduce right hooks, instead increased right hooks greatly.)
We've talked at length about Stevenage and Milton Keynes in
England, towns purpose-built with state of the art separate
bike facilities that don't work. I recall reading about an
Ottowa, Canada cycle track that scored three car-bike
crashes in its first three weeks. A Columbus, Ohio cycle
track (on Summit Street) had 11 car-bike crashes in its
first year of operation. The same stretch of road had only 6
car-bike crashes in the four years prior to the beginning of
construction. The "bicycle highways" through London
generated a cluster of crossing conflict fatalities a few
years ago.

Joerg, don't pretend it's just incompetent designers in
America, or Germany, or Canada, or England. There are too
many examples. Basic physics and fundamental principles of
traffic movement argue against many of the designs you tout.
And green paint or copious warning signs can't prevent
crashes caused by illogical traffic interactions.


+1


Andrew, you are in the perfect position because you run a
bike shop and undoubtedly 95% of people coming through the
door are cyclists (discount the grandparents buying a
tricycle for li'l Joey). What if you'd ask every one of them
for a week or so whether they prefer riding on bike paths or
on roads?


As with the apologists for communism who turn hands up and
say, "Well,
you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs" I note
that there's
never an omelette.


Oh there is but it's always being eaten by the politically
connected. Regular people must stand in line to get one,
only one per family, and when it's their turn all omelettes
are already gone.




What if you'd ask every one of them for a week or so
whether they prefer riding on bike paths or
riding on bike paths or on roads?



I quote Pauli, "That's so bad it's not even wrong."

Joerg, you have no argument and you ought to know better.

I, for one, would rather NOT ride on kiddy paths, a
significant reason among many being I'm hardly ever going
where one exists.

"Hey Ms Customer! How about ditzing around on the kiddie
path over near Mugger's Lane instead of going to work
today?" pffft.

I admit to absolutely hating the stupid boondoggles; I go
out of my way to find another route on principle. I also
avoid door-zone painted lanes and other crap of their ilk.



--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


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  #42  
Old February 21st 18, 07:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,641
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/21/2018 11:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/20/2018 10:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:11:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/20/2018 3:28 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-20 10:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 10:54:03 AM UTC-5,
Joerg wrote:


Do you really believe everything should be done by a
nanny state or some
"organization"?

Not _everything_. But should "organizations" teach
proper use of the
road? YES!

We have "organizations" called schools that teach
things like the rules
of Dodge Ball. Why should they not teach people the
rules of cycling
in traffic?


There is only so much time a school has and especially
leftist states
fill that with so much mandatory junk that we should
rather concentrate
on math, reading and stuff. Our kids already trail much
of the developed
world there.

But what - we should not bother to teach them about
operating vehicles
properly in traffic?


Good Lord! Way back in the dim and distant past when I was
in High
School the School System opted for a Driver's Training
course and even
purchased a "dual control" auto, a Chevy I believe, for
the course.

Is it to be supposed that in this high tech present
learning how to
drive is no longer necessary?


I think that public school driver's education classes are
far less common than they used to be. I took such a class as
a summer option, but that was over 50 years ago. AFAIK it's
not available around here at all. It's been replaced by
for-profit driving schools and/or online classes.

And those ignore interactions with bicyclists. I know a
smart and dedicated bike advocate who has worked a long time
trying to influence them to teach respect for cyclists, care
when passing cyclists, etc. She's also lobbied to get
appropriate questions into the official driver's license
exams. She's been repeatedly rebuffed, but she keeps trying.


Right, not in most schools. My grandson was licensed last
summer after a $400 class and he's not at all motivated to
drive. His generation doesn't much like automobiles.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #43  
Old February 21st 18, 10:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,137
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:14:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Which is the same effect as your message that "Roads are dangerous,
don't ride a bike until you have a separate bike path."


You guys have pounded on Joerg's mistakes until they are welded to his
soul. One can't possibly change an opinion that is a key part of
one's identity.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net


  #44  
Old February 22nd 18, 02:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:22:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/20/2018 10:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:11:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/20/2018 3:28 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-20 10:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 10:54:03 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:


Do you really believe everything should be done by a nanny state or some
"organization"?

Not _everything_. But should "organizations" teach proper use of the
road? YES!

We have "organizations" called schools that teach things like the rules
of Dodge Ball. Why should they not teach people the rules of cycling
in traffic?


There is only so much time a school has and especially leftist states
fill that with so much mandatory junk that we should rather concentrate
on math, reading and stuff. Our kids already trail much of the developed
world there.

But what - we should not bother to teach them about operating vehicles
properly in traffic?


Good Lord! Way back in the dim and distant past when I was in High
School the School System opted for a Driver's Training course and even
purchased a "dual control" auto, a Chevy I believe, for the course.

Is it to be supposed that in this high tech present learning how to
drive is no longer necessary?


I think that public school driver's education classes are far less
common than they used to be. I took such a class as a summer option, but
that was over 50 years ago. AFAIK it's not available around here at all.
It's been replaced by for-profit driving schools and/or online classes.

And those ignore interactions with bicyclists. I know a smart and
dedicated bike advocate who has worked a long time trying to influence
them to teach respect for cyclists, care when passing cyclists, etc.
She's also lobbied to get appropriate questions into the official
driver's license exams. She's been repeatedly rebuffed, but she keeps
trying.


I have the feeling that is wrong. Why "respect for bicycles"? Are they
somehow different then other slow moving "vehicles" (note the legal
definition). There are already sufficient highway rules and
regulations. Just enforce them.

Of course, I read the complaints about Traffic cops unfairly ticketing
someone - "Geeze, and I was only 20 mph over the posted and there
weren't any kids at the school crossing anyway". I suppose if that
logic is applied that "I didn't see him" becomes an equally valid
excuse.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #45  
Old February 22nd 18, 02:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,163
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/21/2018 9:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:22:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/20/2018 10:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:11:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/20/2018 3:28 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-20 10:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 10:54:03 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:


Do you really believe everything should be done by a nanny state or some
"organization"?

Not _everything_. But should "organizations" teach proper use of the
road? YES!

We have "organizations" called schools that teach things like the rules
of Dodge Ball. Why should they not teach people the rules of cycling
in traffic?


There is only so much time a school has and especially leftist states
fill that with so much mandatory junk that we should rather concentrate
on math, reading and stuff. Our kids already trail much of the developed
world there.

But what - we should not bother to teach them about operating vehicles
properly in traffic?


Good Lord! Way back in the dim and distant past when I was in High
School the School System opted for a Driver's Training course and even
purchased a "dual control" auto, a Chevy I believe, for the course.

Is it to be supposed that in this high tech present learning how to
drive is no longer necessary?


I think that public school driver's education classes are far less
common than they used to be. I took such a class as a summer option, but
that was over 50 years ago. AFAIK it's not available around here at all.
It's been replaced by for-profit driving schools and/or online classes.

And those ignore interactions with bicyclists. I know a smart and
dedicated bike advocate who has worked a long time trying to influence
them to teach respect for cyclists, care when passing cyclists, etc.
She's also lobbied to get appropriate questions into the official
driver's license exams. She's been repeatedly rebuffed, but she keeps
trying.


I have the feeling that is wrong. Why "respect for bicycles"? Are they
somehow different then other slow moving "vehicles" (note the legal
definition). There are already sufficient highway rules and
regulations. Just enforce them.


I think a large part of the problem is ignorance. I'm just back from a
bike club meeting where one friend was telling me about a motorist
yelling "You're not supposed to be on the road."

Sure, enforcement helps. But cops can intercept only a tiny fraction of
people who violate laws. And it's even worse because a lot of cops are
ignorant about bike laws.

We need education on these issues, delivered in many ways.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #46  
Old February 22nd 18, 02:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,163
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/21/2018 5:23 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:14:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Which is the same effect as your message that "Roads are dangerous,
don't ride a bike until you have a separate bike path."


You guys have pounded on Joerg's mistakes until they are welded to his
soul. One can't possibly change an opinion that is a key part of
one's identity.


For every Joerg, there are many lurkers. I suspect the lurkers learn
from these discussions. That makes Joerg a useful tool.

And besides, I've seen other refractory characters change their
attitudes. Steven M. Scharf has written volumes here and elsewhere about
how dynamo lights can never be adequate for safety. Now he admits he's
got them on some of his family bikes. He's now even arguing strongly in
favor of a tiny, barely visible blinky driven by a spoke magnet - in
effect, an intermittent, super-low-power dynamo.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #47  
Old February 22nd 18, 04:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 21:16:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/21/2018 9:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:22:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/20/2018 10:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:11:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/20/2018 3:28 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-20 10:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 10:54:03 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:


Do you really believe everything should be done by a nanny state or some
"organization"?

Not _everything_. But should "organizations" teach proper use of the
road? YES!

We have "organizations" called schools that teach things like the rules
of Dodge Ball. Why should they not teach people the rules of cycling
in traffic?


There is only so much time a school has and especially leftist states
fill that with so much mandatory junk that we should rather concentrate
on math, reading and stuff. Our kids already trail much of the developed
world there.

But what - we should not bother to teach them about operating vehicles
properly in traffic?


Good Lord! Way back in the dim and distant past when I was in High
School the School System opted for a Driver's Training course and even
purchased a "dual control" auto, a Chevy I believe, for the course.

Is it to be supposed that in this high tech present learning how to
drive is no longer necessary?

I think that public school driver's education classes are far less
common than they used to be. I took such a class as a summer option, but
that was over 50 years ago. AFAIK it's not available around here at all.
It's been replaced by for-profit driving schools and/or online classes.

And those ignore interactions with bicyclists. I know a smart and
dedicated bike advocate who has worked a long time trying to influence
them to teach respect for cyclists, care when passing cyclists, etc.
She's also lobbied to get appropriate questions into the official
driver's license exams. She's been repeatedly rebuffed, but she keeps
trying.


I have the feeling that is wrong. Why "respect for bicycles"? Are they
somehow different then other slow moving "vehicles" (note the legal
definition). There are already sufficient highway rules and
regulations. Just enforce them.


I think a large part of the problem is ignorance. I'm just back from a
bike club meeting where one friend was telling me about a motorist
yelling "You're not supposed to be on the road."

Sure, enforcement helps. But cops can intercept only a tiny fraction of
people who violate laws. And it's even worse because a lot of cops are
ignorant about bike laws.

We need education on these issues, delivered in many ways.


Well, it goes without saying that traffic policemen should be familiar
with the traffic regulations :-)

But your friend's comment rather emphasis the lack of knowledge
exhibited by many motorists. For example, In New Hampshire someone
riding a horse has the same rights as someone driving a car. My guess
is that a very large percent of the driving public doesn't know that.

Enforcement doesn't have to catch all the evil doers all it has to do
is catch enough of them that word gets round - "Hey, don't speed on
Downer Road, they'll catch you and the fine is awful."

But "Bike Laws"? As far as I've read there are only one or two
specific bicycle laws as most states simply state that they are
"vehicles" with all the rights of any vehicle.

I can't comment on the U.S. but here I see bicyclists breaking both
the traffic laws and what might be termed the laws of common sense
almost daily. Perhaps cyclists also need to study up on what's right
and what's wrong.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #48  
Old February 22nd 18, 04:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 160
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/21/2018 5:23 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:14:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Which is the same effect as your message that "Roads are dangerous,
don't ride a bike until you have a separate bike path."


You guys have pounded on Joerg's mistakes until they are welded to his
soul. One can't possibly change an opinion that is a key part of
one's identity.


For every Joerg, there are many lurkers. I suspect the lurkers learn
from these discussions. That makes Joerg a useful tool.

And besides, I've seen other refractory characters change their
attitudes. Steven M. Scharf has written volumes here and elsewhere about
how dynamo lights can never be adequate for safety. Now he admits he's
got them on some of his family bikes. He's now even arguing strongly in
favor of a tiny, barely visible blinky driven by a spoke magnet - in
effect, an intermittent, super-low-power dynamo.


Hopefully that's not the proudest achievement of your life :-)

  #49  
Old February 22nd 18, 11:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,299
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/19/2018 8:42 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Oh, and bright lights do help in such situations. When a car driver sees
some really bright light in the rear view and outside mirror that does
get their attention. Experienced it myself many times, when they slammed
on the brake pedal.


True. Anyone that has good DRLs has experienced the difference. But it's
not 100% of the time.

I've never liked the narrative of "let's pass more laws to make
everything safe for everyone," but education seems to be working on most
people, since most commuters on bicycles, other than students, now are
using DRLs. But last Sunday we were out on a trail and I did not
understand why mountain bikers were using DRLs off-road, since there
were not very many of them around.

Will we ever educate everyone? No. But we did get Frank to buy a good
battery powered light with DRL functionality, the Oculus, so there is
hope for the future of our country.
  #50  
Old February 22nd 18, 11:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,299
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/21/2018 2:23 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:14:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Which is the same effect as your message that "Roads are dangerous,
don't ride a bike until you have a separate bike path."


You guys have pounded on Joerg's mistakes until they are welded to his
soul. One can't possibly change an opinion that is a key part of
one's identity.


Of course Joerg never said any such thing, it's just one more of a
series of the fabrications that some people are famous for.

 




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