Advice to get my average up??

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:31:20 +0000 (UTC), Booker C. Bense
. stanford.edu wrote:

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In article ,
Hell and High Water wrote:
I ride 10-15 miles four or five days a week, then a longer (~30 miles)
ride on the weekends.


Any suggestions to get my average speed up?


_ Draft somebody, riding with people just a little bit faster
than you is a really good way to get faster. In particular it's
good for breaking out of a rut, in that you have to go fast
when they go fast, not necessarily when you go fast. A lot
of getting from 15 or 16 mph to 20 mph is keeping the speed
constant over short hills and through corners.

_ Booker C. Bense

I couldn't agree with this more. Besides the good advice that other
posters gave, I found that riding with faster people significantly
increased my overall average. Draft off of them for a bit, take your
turn pulling, repeat. I'm 62 years young and by no means a speed
demon, but my overall avg. jumped over 2mph over the course of a few
short months. Hope this helps!

richard

That makes more sense!
I too often have a disconnect between what my mind is thinking and my
fingers are typing

jj wrote:
: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:25:18 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
: wrote:
:
:jj wrote:
::: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:45:11 -0500, Hell and High Water
::: wrote:
:::
::::
:::: I AM! Every time I ride, it's fantastic! I've truly fallen in
:::: love with the bike!
::::
::::
:::: Thanks for the excellent advice! I will continue to cherish my
:::: rides, and try to watch the 'avg speed' indicator a bit less.
::::
:::: -Bob
:::
::: I think there are some 'tricks' that you can use. Most of these
::: won't work for very experienced riders, but they've worked for me.
:::
:[...]
:::
::: 2. motorpacing. Same kind of thing. Find somewhere that you can
::: have
:
:Too dangerous for a nonracer, IMO.
:
: Perhaps. Tell me you've never done an opportunistic draft on a big
: truck, though.

No, not really. I try to stay clear of big trucks and certainly don't
relish the thought of sucking anymore exhaust fumes than I must.

If you do it with a small motor bike it's pretty
: safe. But, dude, if -I- can do it, and I'm a big old klutz, then
: surely younger more agile guys can do it. Just gotta keep well back
: from the car. Ten to fifteen feet you still get the draft using a
: van or a taller car.

Why not just ride hard against wind resistance? I'm too lazy to go back and
reread what you originally wrote to answer my own question

:
:::
::: 3. parkinglot Crits. I've found that I -really- give myself a
::: workout by finding a large empty parking lot that has some hills
::: and
::: a lot of tight turns. Go out and ride a dozen or so laps
::: pretending like you're in a real criterion. Jump on the turns,
::: stand to pedal, pick a "finish line" and go for the sprint win on
::: each lap. This teaches you like no other method how to get tight
::: fast turns, how to keep your speed up right after slowing for the
::: turn, how to find a
::: good 'line', how to jump and pedal and so on. Since the layout of
::: the course dictates your tactics, you'll really give yourself a
::: good workout. I get more 'toasted' doing one of these than a hard
::: fast
::: ride. The point is it's hard to 'tell yourself' ride harder. But a
::: parking lot crit, I find, -makes- you ride hard because of the
::: lay-out. These can be so tough I only do them once a week.
:::
:
:Too dangerous for a nonracer, IMO.
:
: What the....? Are you serious? As long as there are no cars trying
: to pull out (I do mine on Sunday) and the surface is good (no loose
: stuff) and dry, it's very safe. In fact my top speed is usually only
: about 13-14mph because of the need to slow to corner and then get
: back up to speed on the bits that go uphill. Where else are you
: going to learn to corner at speed than in a freakin' parking lot?

Hmm....why do I need to corner at speed in a parking lot? I corner on
streets when making right turns (provided there no cars there). Other than
that, I see no use for this "skill" if I'm not racing. Perhaps it sounds
worse than it really is, but I just do "feel" you on this, jj.

:
: Bet if you tried it you'd like it. Don't have to go fast at all;
: just have to ride smart.

Hmm...I guess I thought the idea was to go hard....

:
: But whatever. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it, hom. ;-)
:

Well, you're perfectly welcome to enjoy them. I guess I just don't get it,
though. The other 8 or so items you mention are fine for me, though.

The power required, owing to air drag, being proportional to the
cube of the speed, means that you don't get much speed change
if you increase the power, once you get up about where your fitness
puts you.

Reducing the air drag with a deeper tuck is the quickest way to
get some mph.

Tire drag is another speed limiter if you have draggy tires. Someday
find a tailwind that you can't outrun and notice what the top speed
is that you can hold for a distance. That's tire drag, where power
required is only proportional to the square of the speed. Working
harder buys you proportionately more speed than air drag against it,
but it's still pretty much limited.

In short, you'll always go about the same speed, once you're in
shape enough to get the initial speed, owing to a steep power curve
rise necessary to raise the speed further.

Most of the changes to power train only affect impedance, rather
than how much power you put on the road, on top of that.
--
Ron Hardin


On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

But whatever. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it, hom. ;-)

jj

Drafting semis is fun and I would recommend it to anyone. I also can
draft the school buses around here up to maybe 30-35 MPH. Once they get
over 35 I run out of RPM and they lose me, but it is still fun. Just pay
attention to those school bus sudden stops.
Bill

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:18:25 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
wrote:

No, not really. I try to stay clear of big trucks and certainly don't
relish the thought of sucking anymore exhaust fumes than I must.

: If you do it with a small motor bike it's pretty
: safe. But, dude, if -I- can do it, and I'm a big old klutz, then
: surely younger more agile guys can do it. Just gotta keep well back
: from the car. Ten to fifteen feet you still get the draft using a
: van or a taller car.

Why not just ride hard against wind resistance? I'm too lazy to go back and
reread what you originally wrote to answer my own question

You seem to be missing the whole point of 'moto-pacing'. Racers will use
moto-pacing to get themselves used to riding -faster- then they normally do
by themselves. "Race pace", if you will.

Behind a car they can typically get up to 40-50mph, and then they leave
that wind-protection and try to keep up that super-high speed for as long
as they can on their own. Racing is so much faster than even group training
rides that this kind of overspeed pacing gives the Pro riders both a
physical and psychological advantage. Tunes them up, as it were.

Haven't you ever heard of sprinters trying to increase their running speed
by having themselves towed behind a vehicle with a rubber umbilical?
Similar concept.

::: 3. parkinglot Crits. I've found that I -really- give myself a
::: workout by finding a large empty parking lot that has some hills and
::: a lot of tight turns. Go out and ride a dozen or so laps
::: pretending like you're in a real criterion. Jump on the turns,
::: stand to pedal, pick a "finish line" and go for the sprint win on
::: each lap. This teaches you like no other method how to get tight
::: fast turns, how to keep your speed up right after slowing for the
::: turn, how to find a good 'line', how to jump and pedal and so on.
::: Since the layout of the course dictates your tactics, you'll really give
::: yourself a good workout. I get more 'toasted' doing one of these than
::: a hard fast ride. The point is it's hard to 'tell yourself' ride harder. But a
::: parking lot crit, I find, -makes- you ride hard because of the
::: lay-out. These can be so tough I only do them once a week.
:::
:
:Too dangerous for a nonracer, IMO.
:
: What the....? Are you serious? As long as there are no cars trying
: to pull out (I do mine on Sunday) and the surface is good (no loose
: stuff) and dry, it's very safe. In fact my top speed is usually only
: about 13-14mph because of the need to slow to corner and then get
: back up to speed on the bits that go uphill. Where else are you
: going to learn to corner at speed than in a freakin' parking lot?

Hmm....why do I need to corner at speed in a parking lot? I corner on
streets when making right turns (provided there no cars there). Other than
that, I see no use for this "skill" if I'm not racing. Perhaps it sounds
worse than it really is, but I just do "feel" you on this, jj.

OK, again you're missing the point. If you are out riding and you 'tell
yourself': "go fast here", or "sprint to make that turn, stand up and pedal
up that rise", often the mind and body say 'huh? that's too much like
work'. In addition on the roads you don't have the 'concentration' of turns
and switchbacks. You'll pedal for a mile or so before you get to a turn and
you're not doing tight turns, one right after the other.

But if you're pretending you're doing a criterion with lots of parking
islands, then you -must- take a good line, and keep tight or you'll miss
the second or third of a series of tight turns. Also, with that many turns,
you're constantly aware of needing to keep your speed up, but it's
difficult. You're -forced- to concentrate and -forced- to stand and jump to
get the acceleration back up. because the course is tight enough that you
almost slow to a stop. In addition it's easier to pretend a certain line is
the 'finish line' and you fantacize 'sprinting for the line'.

Part of increasing your average speed is doing fast accelerations and
powering back up to 'spin speed'.

Out on the road you might 'sprint' for a particular telephone pole or
something, but the 'cues' to use to fantacize are sparse and you don't
become compelled to focus and concentrate like you do when you're riding a
tight parking lot course. In fact you may feel faintly ridiculous
pretending you're blitzing off the line at stop sighs - getting that big
acceleration from a standing start.

Well with a parking lot crit, you're all alone and can just go nuts
pretending.

I find that it's much easier to concentrate when the impetus to do so comes
from outside of me - i.e. the course demands it.

I even pretend there are other riders chasing me or that I'm trying to
catch up to the bunch ahead of me. It's really pretty neat and not
dangerous at all.

Hope this explains it more. ;-)

jj

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 23:13:39 GMT, Ron Hardin
wrote:

The power required, owing to air drag, being proportional to the
cube of the speed, means that you don't get much speed change
if you increase the power, once you get up about where your fitness
puts you.

Reducing the air drag with a deeper tuck is the quickest way to
get some mph.

Makes sense, but I'd also argue that the quickest way to improve your
average speed is to find those places where your speed is dropping off the
most, and work at minimizing this drop off.

For instance today I rode my regular route and every place I saw my current
speed drop below my 'target', I worked very hard to bring it up. On the
straight-aways I just rode moderately hard. Just that little tweak wasn't
so much work that it sapped me, like trying to ride 23mph vs 21mph, and it
brought up my best 'average speed' up by .3mph quite easily.

The places where I was 'dragging' I discovered I was dropping down to
single digits at my turn around points and at a couple short uphills that
weren't that steep, but came right after a sharp turn. I concentrated on
eliminating those and did more to improve my time than I thought.

Now don't get me wrong - it's very tough removing those 'slowdowns' and
bottlenecks, but if you concentrate it can be done. It's much easier than
trying to find a bunch of additional watts on the straightaway, I think.
;-)

jj

Tire drag is another speed limiter if you have draggy tires. Someday
find a tailwind that you can't outrun and notice what the top speed
is that you can hold for a distance. That's tire drag, where power
required is only proportional to the square of the speed. Working
harder buys you proportionately more speed than air drag against it,
but it's still pretty much limited.

In short, you'll always go about the same speed, once you're in
shape enough to get the initial speed, owing to a steep power curve
rise necessary to raise the speed further.

Most of the changes to power train only affect impedance, rather
than how much power you put on the road, on top of that.

I couldn't agree with this more. Besides the good advice that other
posters gave, I found that riding with faster people significantly
increased my overall average. Draft off of them for a bit, take your
turn pulling, repeat.

A great way to get a good interval workout. Really wicked when the speed is
cranked up and the paceline is rapidly pulling through. You can only wonder
if you can get off the front before you blow.

Lots more fun than doing intervals on your own, IMHO.


Chris Neary


"Science, freedom, beauty, adventu what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

Chris Neary wrote:
I couldn't agree with this more. Besides the good advice that other
posters gave, I found that riding with faster people significantly
increased my overall average. Draft off of them for a bit, take your
turn pulling, repeat.


A great way to get a good interval workout. Really wicked when the speed is
cranked up and the paceline is rapidly pulling through. You can only wonder
if you can get off the front before you blow.

Lots more fun than doing intervals on your own, IMHO.

Agreed. I've been doing a weekly ride with the same group for almost 10
years. I don't think I would have lasted 10 weeks doing laps around a
parking lot. Riding with a group at "fitness" pace is enormous fun and
you get pushed much harder, though you hardly notice because you're
having such a good time.

Different people like different styles of riding, but if you are focused
on going faster, you're competitive (jj) -- so compete!

jj wrote:

2. motorpacing.

3. parkinglot Crits. I've found that I -really- give myself a workout by finding a large empty parking lot that has some hills and a lot of tight turns. Go out and ride a dozen or so laps pretending like you're in a real criterion.

See, this is what I don't get. If you're not a racer, why spend your
precious riding time doing pretend criteriums in a parking lot? Is this
supposed to be fun, or the equivalent of doing 100 push-ups?

Back to the "Average Speed" feature on cyclo-computers: Folks get so
"into" comparing their "averages" (or trying to increase their own
average), that there's never a moment to pause on a ride. You might see
an interesting back road with a fantastic view, but you dare not
explore it because it's going to hurt your average speed.

I don't consider myself a flower-picking leisure rider by any means,
but I have learned to relax a little and enjoy my rides instead of
rushing through them.

Art Harris