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Article about SRAM in Forbes



 
 
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  #31  
Old September 20th 19, 03:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 28
Default Article about SRAM in Forbes

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 4:25:29 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 9:14 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:15:22 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.


My experience is limited to Chorus ergo, Mirage Ergo, and Athena Ergo, all mid/late 90s vintage. The Mirage and Athena weren't too far apart, but the chorus was noticeably better, WAY better. It was more smooth, gave much better tactile feedback, seemed to set-up easier. Over the years, the Chorus has held up better as well. That's just my experience. I was also using SRAM cassettes at the time, so this applies to 'just rear derailleurs'.


I don't doubt your evaluation of the characteristics. But I'm still
curious about the specific mechanical and/or material differences that
generated those characteristics.

For example, ISTR hearing that decades ago, Campy derailleurs had
separate bushings for the various pivots, whereas most manufacturers
simply pivoted the main castings or forgings on the pivot pins, with no
separate bushings.

And of course, I may be wrong. I've worked on only a few Campy
derailleurs, and never considered disassembling the parallelogram. But
I'm curious about the technical/mechanical detail differences between
their models.



--
- Frank Krygowski


Sorry, I misunderstood your question. I haven't looked into them in that kind of detail.
Ads
  #32  
Old September 20th 19, 08:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,037
Default Article about SRAM in Forbes

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 5:48:25 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/19/2019 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 1:25:29 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 9:14 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:15:22 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.

My experience is limited to Chorus ergo, Mirage Ergo, and Athena Ergo, all mid/late 90s vintage. The Mirage and Athena weren't too far apart, but the chorus was noticeably better, WAY better. It was more smooth, gave much better tactile feedback, seemed to set-up easier. Over the years, the Chorus has held up better as well. That's just my experience. I was also using SRAM cassettes at the time, so this applies to 'just rear derailleurs'.

I don't doubt your evaluation of the characteristics. But I'm still
curious about the specific mechanical and/or material differences that
generated those characteristics.

For example, ISTR hearing that decades ago, Campy derailleurs had
separate bushings for the various pivots, whereas most manufacturers
simply pivoted the main castings or forgings on the pivot pins, with no
separate bushings.

And of course, I may be wrong. I've worked on only a few Campy
derailleurs, and never considered disassembling the parallelogram. But
I'm curious about the technical/mechanical detail differences between
their models.



--
- Frank Krygowski


Tell us Frank, what is the difference in SLX tubing set between the toptube and the seat stay?


Both are Cyclex material, seamless, but the seat tube is
butted and rifled on one end, the seat stay is not.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Also the wall thickness of the stays is much thicker than the toptube.
  #33  
Old September 20th 19, 08:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,037
Default Article about SRAM in Forbes

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 7:58:25 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 5:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 8:15:22 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/18/2019 3:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 2:35:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/17/2019 2:21 PM, wrote:


OK. As long as you know you are doing the change for completely aesthetic reasons. For performance, there ain't no difference. I have Record, Chorus, Centaur, Veloce, and a Mirage part or two on 9 and 10 speed bikes. No difference in performance.


+1


Record and Chorus are MILES ahead of the rest of the line in performance. The throw is less and the motions of the components are such that you don't have to mess about nearly do much to stop noises.

I absolutely would have kept Centaur or below if there weren't these differences because the price difference is so substantial. Even the Record cassettes shift cleaner. The Record cable set and the chains are better.

Though I am presently testing one of those Connex super-chains and so far it seems to be the best I've used. No noises and shifts great after 400+ miles. I think that you're the one that recommended that and if so you're seem to be 100% correct.

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Frank, are you saying that there's no difference between Shimano Tiagra and DuraAce? Please mak3e that clear.


No, Tom. And damn, I'm trying to ask a serious technical question! Don't
ascribe evil intent to a question about mechanical design!

At least some people say there is a difference in feel or performance
between different levels of Campy equipment. Ditto for top levels of
Shimano equipment. I'm a mechanical engineer. I'm curious about the
mechanical reasons for the differences.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Frank, whatever you were trying to do certainly didn't look serious. The top line components aren't just polished more. Their entire interior components are not just built to more accurate standards and better materials but often use entirely different bearings or bearing material.

Unlike what Jay seems to believe, Ultegra is not last year's DuraAce And next year's Ultegra won't weigh almost half of today's Ultegra group as DuraAce does today.

It is a choice of building to a price point and what is necessary to do so.
  #34  
Old September 20th 19, 10:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,800
Default Article about SRAM in Forbes

On 9/20/2019 3:56 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 7:58:25 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 5:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 8:15:22 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/18/2019 3:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 2:35:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/17/2019 2:21 PM, wrote:


OK. As long as you know you are doing the change for completely aesthetic reasons. For performance, there ain't no difference. I have Record, Chorus, Centaur, Veloce, and a Mirage part or two on 9 and 10 speed bikes. No difference in performance.


+1


Record and Chorus are MILES ahead of the rest of the line in performance. The throw is less and the motions of the components are such that you don't have to mess about nearly do much to stop noises.

I absolutely would have kept Centaur or below if there weren't these differences because the price difference is so substantial. Even the Record cassettes shift cleaner. The Record cable set and the chains are better.

Though I am presently testing one of those Connex super-chains and so far it seems to be the best I've used. No noises and shifts great after 400+ miles. I think that you're the one that recommended that and if so you're seem to be 100% correct.

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, are you saying that there's no difference between Shimano Tiagra and DuraAce? Please mak3e that clear.


No, Tom. And damn, I'm trying to ask a serious technical question! Don't
ascribe evil intent to a question about mechanical design!

At least some people say there is a difference in feel or performance
between different levels of Campy equipment. Ditto for top levels of
Shimano equipment. I'm a mechanical engineer. I'm curious about the
mechanical reasons for the differences.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Frank, whatever you were trying to do certainly didn't look serious.


Tom, if I told you water was wet, you'd tell me that was just a
left-wing conspiracy. Damn, I hope you get your medications sorted out!

The top line components aren't just polished more. Their entire interior components are not just built to more accurate standards and better materials but often use entirely different bearings or bearing material.


I'm asking for _details_ on the mechanical and/or material differences.
Obviously, you don't know the answer.

Which would be fine; after all, I don't know the answer either. But I'm
honest enough to ask, whereas you prefer to attack and blather.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #35  
Old September 20th 19, 11:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,037
Default Article about SRAM in Forbes

On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 2:25:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/20/2019 3:56 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 7:58:25 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 5:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 8:15:22 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/18/2019 3:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 2:35:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/17/2019 2:21 PM, wrote:


OK. As long as you know you are doing the change for completely aesthetic reasons. For performance, there ain't no difference. I have Record, Chorus, Centaur, Veloce, and a Mirage part or two on 9 and 10 speed bikes. No difference in performance.


+1


Record and Chorus are MILES ahead of the rest of the line in performance. The throw is less and the motions of the components are such that you don't have to mess about nearly do much to stop noises.

I absolutely would have kept Centaur or below if there weren't these differences because the price difference is so substantial. Even the Record cassettes shift cleaner. The Record cable set and the chains are better.

Though I am presently testing one of those Connex super-chains and so far it seems to be the best I've used. No noises and shifts great after 400+ miles. I think that you're the one that recommended that and if so you're seem to be 100% correct.

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, are you saying that there's no difference between Shimano Tiagra and DuraAce? Please mak3e that clear.

No, Tom. And damn, I'm trying to ask a serious technical question! Don't
ascribe evil intent to a question about mechanical design!

At least some people say there is a difference in feel or performance
between different levels of Campy equipment. Ditto for top levels of
Shimano equipment. I'm a mechanical engineer. I'm curious about the
mechanical reasons for the differences.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Frank, whatever you were trying to do certainly didn't look serious.


Tom, if I told you water was wet, you'd tell me that was just a
left-wing conspiracy. Damn, I hope you get your medications sorted out!

The top line components aren't just polished more. Their entire interior components are not just built to more accurate standards and better materials but often use entirely different bearings or bearing material.


I'm asking for _details_ on the mechanical and/or material differences.
Obviously, you don't know the answer.

Which would be fine; after all, I don't know the answer either. But I'm
honest enough to ask, whereas you prefer to attack and blather.


So tell is Frank - how would you tell the difference between a carbon cloth lever and a carbon fiber lever with a cloth cover? You have never used anything but lower end components. No big deal but your inference wasn't that you actually wanted to know what the difference was but rather why anyone would buy higher end parts as if the only difference was price and polish.

You never used high end parts and you simply don't believe that there is any difference. If the people here say that you can feel the difference you think of them as stupid people because you're an engineer and know that you can't tell the difference between a ball bearing lever and a plain bearing lever with hand pressure.

Let's face it Frank - your age got you last century.
  #36  
Old September 21st 19, 12:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,800
Default Article about SRAM in Forbes

On 9/20/2019 6:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 2:25:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/20/2019 3:56 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 7:58:25 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 5:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 8:15:22 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/18/2019 3:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 2:35:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/17/2019 2:21 PM, wrote:


OK. As long as you know you are doing the change for completely aesthetic reasons. For performance, there ain't no difference. I have Record, Chorus, Centaur, Veloce, and a Mirage part or two on 9 and 10 speed bikes. No difference in performance.


+1


Record and Chorus are MILES ahead of the rest of the line in performance. The throw is less and the motions of the components are such that you don't have to mess about nearly do much to stop noises.

I absolutely would have kept Centaur or below if there weren't these differences because the price difference is so substantial. Even the Record cassettes shift cleaner. The Record cable set and the chains are better.

Though I am presently testing one of those Connex super-chains and so far it seems to be the best I've used. No noises and shifts great after 400+ miles. I think that you're the one that recommended that and if so you're seem to be 100% correct.

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, are you saying that there's no difference between Shimano Tiagra and DuraAce? Please mak3e that clear.

No, Tom. And damn, I'm trying to ask a serious technical question! Don't
ascribe evil intent to a question about mechanical design!

At least some people say there is a difference in feel or performance
between different levels of Campy equipment. Ditto for top levels of
Shimano equipment. I'm a mechanical engineer. I'm curious about the
mechanical reasons for the differences.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, whatever you were trying to do certainly didn't look serious.


Tom, if I told you water was wet, you'd tell me that was just a
left-wing conspiracy. Damn, I hope you get your medications sorted out!

The top line components aren't just polished more. Their entire interior components are not just built to more accurate standards and better materials but often use entirely different bearings or bearing material.


I'm asking for _details_ on the mechanical and/or material differences.
Obviously, you don't know the answer.

Which would be fine; after all, I don't know the answer either. But I'm
honest enough to ask, whereas you prefer to attack and blather.


So tell is Frank - how would you tell the difference between a carbon cloth lever and a carbon fiber lever with a cloth cover? You have never used anything but lower end components. No big deal but your inference wasn't that you actually wanted to know what the difference was but rather why anyone would buy higher end parts as if the only difference was price and polish.

You never used high end parts and you simply don't believe that there is any difference. If the people here say that you can feel the difference you think of them as stupid people because you're an engineer and know that you can't tell the difference between a ball bearing lever and a plain bearing lever with hand pressure.

Let's face it Frank - your age got you last century.


I was making no inference at all. I was asking an honest technical
question.

You are deeply paranoid, and at _least_ need to have your doctor review
your medications. There's a chance something can be done for you.
--
- Frank Krygowski
  #37  
Old September 21st 19, 01:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 502
Default Article about SRAM in Forbes

On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 19:52:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/20/2019 6:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 2:25:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/20/2019 3:56 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 7:58:25 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/19/2019 5:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 8:15:22 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/18/2019 3:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 2:35:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/17/2019 2:21 PM, wrote:


OK. As long as you know you are doing the change for completely aesthetic reasons. For performance, there ain't no difference. I have Record, Chorus, Centaur, Veloce, and a Mirage part or two on 9 and 10 speed bikes. No difference in performance.


+1


Record and Chorus are MILES ahead of the rest of the line in performance. The throw is less and the motions of the components are such that you don't have to mess about nearly do much to stop noises.

I absolutely would have kept Centaur or below if there weren't these differences because the price difference is so substantial. Even the Record cassettes shift cleaner. The Record cable set and the chains are better.

Though I am presently testing one of those Connex super-chains and so far it seems to be the best I've used. No noises and shifts great after 400+ miles. I think that you're the one that recommended that and if so you're seem to be 100% correct.

OK: Since I have worked on only a few Campy components and owned even
fewer, can someone detail the mechanical and/or material differences
between the different levels of Campy equipment? To keep it simple,
let's discuss just the rear derailleurs. I'm just curious.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, are you saying that there's no difference between Shimano Tiagra and DuraAce? Please mak3e that clear.

No, Tom. And damn, I'm trying to ask a serious technical question! Don't
ascribe evil intent to a question about mechanical design!

At least some people say there is a difference in feel or performance
between different levels of Campy equipment. Ditto for top levels of
Shimano equipment. I'm a mechanical engineer. I'm curious about the
mechanical reasons for the differences.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, whatever you were trying to do certainly didn't look serious.

Tom, if I told you water was wet, you'd tell me that was just a
left-wing conspiracy. Damn, I hope you get your medications sorted out!

The top line components aren't just polished more. Their entire interior components are not just built to more accurate standards and better materials but often use entirely different bearings or bearing material.

I'm asking for _details_ on the mechanical and/or material differences.
Obviously, you don't know the answer.

Which would be fine; after all, I don't know the answer either. But I'm
honest enough to ask, whereas you prefer to attack and blather.


So tell is Frank - how would you tell the difference between a carbon cloth lever and a carbon fiber lever with a cloth cover? You have never used anything but lower end components. No big deal but your inference wasn't that you actually wanted to know what the difference was but rather why anyone would buy higher end parts as if the only difference was price and polish.

You never used high end parts and you simply don't believe that there is any difference. If the people here say that you can feel the difference you think of them as stupid people because you're an engineer and know that you can't tell the difference between a ball bearing lever and a plain bearing lever with hand pressure.

Let's face it Frank - your age got you last century.


I was making no inference at all. I was asking an honest technical
question.

You are deeply paranoid, and at _least_ need to have your doctor review
your medications. There's a chance something can be done for you.
--
- Frank Krygowski


But would he WANT something to be done for him? To forgo his imagined
superiority, his vast knowledge, his political insight, his super
abilities?

My guess is that he is quite happy as he is and would fight tooth and
nail any attempt made to rehabilitate him.

--

Cheers,

John B.
  #38  
Old September 21st 19, 05:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,800
Default Article about SRAM in Forbes

On 9/21/2019 11:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:


Technical comment, my Thompson seat posts are noisy. The saddle clamp/carriage bolts creak like crazy, and I'm going to lube up my second post today -- the one on my commuter. With aluminum tubes, the creaking reverberates and sounds like the bike is falling apart.


I hesitate to say this, but on some non-moving metal to metal joints
(not just bicycle parts) I've had success by scraping some paraffin wax
onto the surfaces. It can last a long time. (Let the mockery begin!)

My feet are also killing me, and I'm going to start a thread one day on insoles, metatarsal pads and foot issues. That's my next round of experimenting with bicycle things.


I don't remember having that sort of conversation when I was in my 30s...


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #39  
Old September 21st 19, 07:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,043
Default Article about SRAM in Forbes

Frank Krygowski wrote:

jbeattie wrote:

My feet are also killing me, and I'm going to start a thread one day
on insoles, metatarsal pads and foot issues. That's my next round of
experimenting with bicycle things.


I don't remember having that sort of conversation when I was in my 30s...


I remember my SPD shoes being very sucky compared to normal shoes, to the degree that I gave them up and didn't look back except for a brief experiment with fixed gearing (which I also gave up).

On my last 80-mile round trip, I recall thinking maybe Crocs weren't the best choice for the job. But I had no lasting discomfort.
  #40  
Old September 21st 19, 08:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,298
Default Article about SRAM in Forbes

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 9:54:19 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/21/2019 11:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:


Technical comment, my Thompson seat posts are noisy. The saddle clamp/carriage bolts creak like crazy, and I'm going to lube up my second post today -- the one on my commuter. With aluminum tubes, the creaking reverberates and sounds like the bike is falling apart.


I hesitate to say this, but on some non-moving metal to metal joints
(not just bicycle parts) I've had success by scraping some paraffin wax
onto the surfaces. It can last a long time. (Let the mockery begin!)


I'm not anti-wax. That would work, but I'll use grease. I was thinking of using PTFEE plumbers paste or anti-seize. I looked at the Thompson site, and it said "Grease only bolt threads. Do not grease under bolt head
or washer and do not use anti-seize." I wonder why no anti-seize.

-- Jay Beattie.
 




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