#61
|
|||
|
|||
OT rant aargh!
Kathleen scrawled in bright red lipstick:
.. Very true. Until I had a son, I had no freakin' idea how different boys truly are. I had no brothers, no male cousins close by, and I was pumped full of the same feminist crap Penny got, and I just knew that gender differences were the result of upbringing and environment. My daughter was always a tomboy, which I approved of, having been much the same myself. So I thought I had a handle on the whole thing. And then along came Julian. My father and my husband assure me that the stuff he comes up with are just normal guy things, and not a result of that time when he was two months old and rolled off the couch and landed on his head. And so while we still insist on an across-the-board set of standards for both kids relating to basic human decency and courtesy, on a lot of Julian-specific issues, I defer to his father's judgement, just as he defers to mine in regards to our daughter. I'd be interested to see how Monique's POV evolves once her parenting experience progresses beyond the theoretical. Kathleen Nice Kathleen. My views started changing mid-80's when we were living in Wyoming. Mr. Adventure was working the oil fields, on call 7 days a week, pulling 36 hour shifts with no sleep, coming home, eating & sleeping for 8 hours, taking a shower and going back out for another 32 hour shift with no sleep. Meanwhile, I was a college student, working out and riding my bike a lot. I would get letters from my feminist friends who wondered why I wasn't making him do half the housework. I moved even further away from the equality agenda when I kids fairly young for my age group, and the whole "agenda" seems to rank primary care giver for small children at the bottom of the list of important things for women to do. The ability that small boys have to turn Lego's, sticks and even food items into thing that go bang is amazing. Some one I know is completely freaked that she spawned a couple of rough and tumble types that want to wrestle all the time. This doesn't mean that one allows violence or inappropriate behavior... you come up with creative ways to channel it. http://www.cet.com/~pennys/images/pumpkin.jpg Penny |
Ads |
#62
|
|||
|
|||
OT rant aargh!
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:13:11 -0700, Penny S penned:
You are generalizing about the raising of girls now based on your personal experience. I know plenty of families whose girls hunt and fish, shoot guns, and are generally allowed to experience what ever they want, within reason, without embarrassment. There are many families that give their kids equal opportunity without shame for many things, and it has nothing to do with "equality", just parenting style. Fair enough. There are also many families that don't. One of the neat things we get to do as adults is that when we become parents, we can make a choice to do things differently. Screw them up differently =P Just curious, why would someone be punished for knives, guns or fires? Were they taking them to school or something? Well, let me restate what I think I was trying to say -- in my experience, and apparently not just in mine (I read a really interesting book on how girls are socialized differently from boys recently, but I can't recall the title), boys are often allowed to engage in antisocial behavior, while girls who do the same are dealt with much more harshly. The parents of the boys I hung out with were very much of the attitude that destruction of property was just part of the "boys will be boys" thing ... whereas my parents, well, no. Then again, rethinking matters, I don't think my parents would have approved of destruction of property for any reason ... so maybe my friends' parents were just incompetent, or oblivious ... I wasn't talking about using knives to whittle wood -- more like, practicing throwing knives in a finished room of the house. The book I read wasn't about destruction, actually, but did talk about how boys are often rewarded for boisterous behavior while girls are reprimanded. Even in classrooms where the teacher is trying not to do so. Even parents who have a child of each gender on soccer teams -- the daughter being chastised for being so loud, while the boy crows on and on about his goal, etc. My parents always told me that I could be president when I grew up -- that anything I wanted was in my power. But when they said "anything," they didn't mean dressing in baggy clothes, choosing not to shave (ooh, my mom hated that one! marched me out of a dress fitting one time for embarrassing her in front of the seamstress by daring to have hairy pits!), using padded swords made of foam and pvc piping to spar with the guys ... Okay, that's a little too much personal revelation for one morning ... -- monique My pointless ramblings: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/phorum/index.php?f=6 |
#63
|
|||
|
|||
OT rant aargh!
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:28:10 -0700, Penny S penned:
Nice Kathleen. My views started changing mid-80's when we were living in Wyoming. Mr. Adventure was working the oil fields, on call 7 days a week, pulling 36 hour shifts with no sleep, coming home, eating & sleeping for 8 hours, taking a shower and going back out for another 32 hour shift with no sleep. Meanwhile, I was a college student, working out and riding my bike a lot. I would get letters from my feminist friends who wondered why I wasn't making him do half the housework. I moved even further away from the equality agenda when I kids fairly young for my age group, and the whole "agenda" seems to rank primary care giver for small children at the bottom of the list of important things for women to do. Sounds like your "feminist friends" didn't have an equality agenda at all. How would his doing half the chores in that scenario be equal? Once you have kids, I absolutely agree that being a great parent has to take priority over personal dreams, at least in those places where they conflict. But let me pose a question -- isn't part of being a great parent making sure that your kids understand that they have choices, and to understand that it's cool if Suzie's mom goes to work while her dad stays home, or maybe they both work part-time so they can both be involved at home? Or maybe Bobby's mom is training to be a mountain biking champion, and Bobby's dad is picking up the slack at home so she can do that? I don't know; I think you read way more into "equality" than I do. Equality isn't about everybody doing everything -- it's about the couple deciding who is best suited to doing what, and about compromise. I will readily admit that your last sentence in that paragraph looms large in my mind. One reason I do not want kids is because I absolutely do not want to become trapped in the "primary caregiver" role just because I happen to be female. The problem, of course, is that whatever promises occur, once the kid's on the scene, if one partner doesn't pick up the slack, the other will have to. No choice ... -- monique My pointless ramblings: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/phorum/index.php?f=6 |
#64
|
|||
|
|||
OT rant aargh!
Monique Y. Herman scrawled in bright red lipstick:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:13:11 -0700, Penny S , guns or fires? Were they taking them to school or something? Well, let me restate what I think I was trying to say -- in my experience, and apparently not just in mine (I read a really interesting book on how girls are socialized differently from boys recently, but I can't recall the title), boys are often allowed to engage in antisocial behavior, while girls who do the same are dealt with much more harshly. now, from what I see, boys are expeted to be more like "girls" (play nice, be quiet) and a are punished for having energy, loudenss and general boisterous ness. Spend some time in a modern classroom. The parents of the boys I hung out with were very much of the attitude that destruction of property was just part of the "boys will be boys" thing ... whereas my parents, well, no. Then again, rethinking matters, I don't think my parents would have approved of destruction of property for any reason ... so maybe my friends' parents were just incompetent, or oblivious ... sounds incompetent to me. The book I read wasn't about destruction, actually, but did talk about how boys are often rewarded for boisterous behavior while girls are reprimanded. Even in classrooms where the teacher is trying not to do so. Even parents who have a child of each gender on soccer teams -- the daughter being chastised for being so loud, while the boy crows on and on about his goal, etc. What book was this? I think you need real life raising a few or volunteering with some youth programs. I was a soccer mom for 7 years, that is certainly not what I saw on the field. My parents always told me that I could be president when I grew up -- that anything I wanted was in my power. But when they said "anything," they didn't mean dressing in baggy clothes, choosing not to shave (ooh, my mom hated that one! marched me out of a dress fitting one time for embarrassing her in front of the seamstress by daring to have hairy pits!), using padded swords made of foam and pvc piping to spar with the guys ... They were lying to you about anything, then were'nt they. Okay, that's a little too much personal revelation for one morning ... you can change it all when you are a mom. Penny methinks you should have a few kids and then repost with some real life opinions. |
#65
|
|||
|
|||
OT rant aargh!
Monique Y. Herman scrawled in bright red lipstick:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:28:10 -0700, Penny S penned: Nice Kathleen. My views started changing mid-80's when we were living in Wyoming. Mr. Adventure was working the oil fields, on call 7 days a week, pulling 36 hour shifts with no sleep, coming home, eating & sleeping for 8 hours, taking a shower and going back out for another 32 hour shift with no sleep. Meanwhile, I was a college student, working out and riding my bike a lot. I would get letters from my feminist friends who wondered why I wasn't making him do half the housework. I moved even further away from the equality agenda when I kids fairly young for my age group, and the whole "agenda" seems to rank primary care giver for small children at the bottom of the list of important things for women to do. Sounds like your "feminist friends" didn't have an equality agenda at all. How would his doing half the chores in that scenario be equal? that was back in the days of 50-50 everything meant "equality". I know a few folks that still subscribe to the 50/50... regardless of who has what responsibilities. We \subscribe to the "best person for the job" and " everyone works until the work is done" and "who has time for it" division of labor. Once you have kids, I absolutely agree that being a great parent has to take priority over personal dreams, at least in those places where they conflict. But let me pose a question -- isn't part of being a great parent making sure that your kids understand that they have choices, and to understand that it's cool if Suzie's mom goes to work while her dad stays home, or maybe they both work part-time so they can both be involved at home? Or maybe Bobby's mom is training to be a mountain biking champion, and Bobby's dad is picking up the slack at home so she can do that? absolutely.. there's not a right or wrong, there's what works for a certain family unit. It doesn't mean I have to agree with your choices tho. I don't know; I think you read way more into "equality" than I do. Equality isn't about everybody doing everything -- it's about the couple deciding who is best suited to doing what, and about compromise. I'm a good bit older than you... we had it drilled into our heads in the late 60's and 70's that equality was equal in everything, not the best person for the job. Any one remember those mmid 70's womens "power suits" for the business woman? I will readily admit that your last sentence in that paragraph looms large in my mind. One reason I do not want kids is because I absolutely do not want to become trapped in the "primary caregiver" role just because I happen to be female. The problem, of course, is that whatever promises occur, once the kid's on the scene, if one partner doesn't pick up the slack, the other will have to. No choice Trapped is a point of view. Also, as for having to pick up the slack, well that's a choice too... unfortunately there are plenty of parents that don't pick up the slack - they dump the kids, abandon them, plug them into the TV, tune them out, ignore them, do drugs, beat them into docility, expect the schools to raise them and a whole boat load of other horrible things. It comes down to a choice, whether you choose to decide that you are the best person for that job, maybe your partner is, maybe a day care minimum wage worker is. I view it as a both and honor and an obligation to be the one primarily responsible for raising my kids to be good citizens of the world. IMO, you should only have kids if you want them, want to have a family, and want to be part of raising them, be part of the joy that a family filled with love can be. After all they are not pets to be sent to the pound when you get overly annoyed. Penny |
#66
|
|||
|
|||
OT rant aargh!
Corvus Corvax wrote:
"Penny S" wrote getting waaay ot here now, sorry I even brought it up. Penny, you are sentenced to watch "Fight Club" five times in a row. Dismissed. CC If she did, she'd realize its not so much about "Being a Man" as it is about our consumer oriented society driving one man crazy. Shawn |
#67
|
|||
|
|||
OT rant aargh!
deluxe wrote:
"Corvus Corvax" wrote in message m... "Penny S" wrote getting waaay ot here now, sorry I even brought it up. Penny, you are sentenced to watch "Fight Club" five times in a row. Dismissed. You just broke the first rule. oops, so did I. |
#68
|
|||
|
|||
OT rant aargh!
Shawn Curry scrawled in bright red lipstick:
Corvus Corvax wrote: "Penny S" wrote getting waaay ot here now, sorry I even brought it up. Penny, you are sentenced to watch "Fight Club" five times in a row. Dismissed. CC If she did, she'd realize its not so much about "Being a Man" as it is about our consumer oriented society driving one man crazy. Shawn Haven't seen it yet. Does Brad Pitt get naked? Penny |
#69
|
|||
|
|||
OT rant aargh!
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:49:13 -0000, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
using padded swords made of foam and pvc piping to spar with the guys ... Cool, you'd have instantly been one of my best friends if you'd have shown up with those. Okay, that's a little too much personal revelation for one morning ... One of the nice things about being an adult is you can be who you want to be (and by that time you might actually just know who you are). -- -BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least) |
#70
|
|||
|
|||
OT rant aargh!
On 19 Sep 2003 20:39:22 -0700, Alex Bird wrote:
"Monique Y. Herman" wrote in message ... On 19 Sep 2003 10:12:27 -0700, Alex Bird penned: "Greg P." wrote in message link.net... snipp not girls do it in Indiana or Butt **** Egypt, but I do know that they do it here, in my little section. What/where/??? is 'Butt **** Egypt' ? Assuming you're not trolling, it's just a term meaning "way the hell out and away from civilization" ... abbreviated BFE in somewhat-polite company. Ah, not a phrase I've heard in the uk. To be honest, and I'm not remotely Egyptian, or even prone to political correctness, I don't think I'd ever use it. If I say any more then I probably will be trolling, but I'm not impressed. I've always heard it as "bumfupt", and I always thought it was some place in the middle of some desert nowhere that had a funny name. I just did a few minutes of searching, and didn't find anything to support that. Apparently its just Americans thinking that someone else's language sounds so funny that a town would be named an english obscenity. We tend to be a little out of touch, you know. ;-) -- -BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least) |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Cyclist rant | psycholist | General | 96 | June 6th 04 02:02 AM |
Further to Claire Petersky's rant | psycholist | General | 34 | June 5th 04 01:24 PM |
OT (sorta) - UPS Rant | voodoo | Mountain Biking | 20 | August 15th 03 05:12 PM |