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  #81  
Old September 25th 17, 12:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Road Discs

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 17:45:34 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/24/2017 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 2:11:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.









You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for
the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!


As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.


There's a subtlety to that.
Front DP calipers offer more braking power where it matters.
Rear SP are plenty strong enough to skid and are lighter, so
DP rear is, in Campagnolo's analysis, unnecessary.


Automobiles have been doing this for some years now. A honking great
set of disks on the front and puny little drums on the rear :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #82  
Old September 25th 17, 01:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Road Discs

On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 2:16:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 2:11:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.









You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for
the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!


As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.


The 105 hydraulic brakes on my Norco modulate really well, and I'm not worried about locking them up -- and they really quieted down after I installed some expensive metal pads and removed the OE resin-organic. I bought the expensive finned pads. I could have folded $20 bills and used those. What a rip-off. I'm going to the cheap-o non-finned pads the next time.

Anyway, today's ride involved about 50 miles of tempo riding with three other guys over mostly rolling terrain. We were on rough road, and it got squirrely in one place, but I never felt like I was going to jam on the brakes and cause a crash. I could easily ride discs in a race if I were still racing. Do I need them in dry weather? No. Not even on a long descent. I've never gotten hand cramps from road descents -- not even on a fully loaded touring bike in the Rockies or Sierra. Trail is different, and they're great on a rain bike or on CF wheels.

I'm getting used to the Norco Search but still can't wait for my peppy road bike to be delivered.The Norco is pretty plush on the rough roads, even with 25mm tires. It makes my CAADX commuter feel like I'm riding on a steel rail. My cohort today was riding CF, steel and Ti. All industry guys who were giving me another bleak report on Interbike. I was also told the Yamaha eBike sucks. It was described as "jerky."

-- Jay Beattie.





  #83  
Old September 25th 17, 03:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Road Discs

On 9/24/2017 8:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 2:16:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:

As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.


The 105 hydraulic brakes on my Norco modulate really well, and I'm not worried about locking them up -- and they really quieted down after I installed some expensive metal pads and removed the OE resin-organic. I bought the expensive finned pads. I could have folded $20 bills and used those. What a rip-off. I'm going to the cheap-o non-finned pads the next time.

Anyway, today's ride involved about 50 miles of tempo riding with three other guys over mostly rolling terrain. We were on rough road, and it got squirrely in one place, but I never felt like I was going to jam on the brakes and cause a crash. I could easily ride discs in a race if I were still racing.


Are you worried about having brakes on different bikes that require much
different lever forces? I would be.

Panic stops are extremely rare, but if I bought a bike with disc brakes
and a true emergency situation arose while riding it, I suspect I'd lock
wheels and go down.
--
- Frank Krygowski
  #84  
Old September 25th 17, 04:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,945
Default Road Discs

My concern with buying a disc brake bike now and planning to keep it for
possibly decades is that the technology is not mature yet. Rim brake
parts, as noted, will be available for pretty much the rest of my life.
But disc brakes may be still evolving to get rid of the weight penalty,
optimize rotor size, pad design, etc. Pretty much the only replacemetn
parts that rim brakes need are cables and pads.

Another concern, which may be unfounded, is that disc brakes stress
frames and wheels in much different ways than rim brakes do. I am not
sure that tecnhlogy has caught up with this yet. For example, on the
front wheel disc brakes can create a steering input during hard braking.
Braking forces are higher than acceleration forces, so this may affect
spoke and rim life.

In terms of performance, I have only ridden a handful of cable actuated
disc brakes. I found them abrupt and grabby and I didn't like them.
But I may not have ridden best examples of the technology and things
have probably come along since then (several years ago). My brazed on
centerpulls, cantilevers and single pivot brakes have consistently an
safely stopped me for decades and I have no complaint about them, but
maybe someone will design the rim brake that converts me. Those brazed
on Mafacs are wonderful, BTW. What a great brake, but few people have
had the opportunity to try them.
  #85  
Old September 25th 17, 09:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Road Discs

On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 11:16:25 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 2:11:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.









You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for
the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!


As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.


The real reason is weight, the rest is marketing BS.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.


Tom, really that is no problem for the majority of people. You can have an opinion about disk brakes, but one thing that almost everyone agree upon
is the positive feedback you get from disk brakes.

Lou

  #86  
Old September 25th 17, 09:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Road Discs

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 4:29:21 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/24/2017 8:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 2:16:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:

As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.


The 105 hydraulic brakes on my Norco modulate really well, and I'm not worried about locking them up -- and they really quieted down after I installed some expensive metal pads and removed the OE resin-organic. I bought the expensive finned pads. I could have folded $20 bills and used those. What a rip-off. I'm going to the cheap-o non-finned pads the next time.

Anyway, today's ride involved about 50 miles of tempo riding with three other guys over mostly rolling terrain. We were on rough road, and it got squirrely in one place, but I never felt like I was going to jam on the brakes and cause a crash. I could easily ride discs in a race if I were still racing.


Are you worried about having brakes on different bikes that require much
different lever forces? I would be.

Panic stops are extremely rare, but if I bought a bike with disc brakes
and a true emergency situation arose while riding it, I suspect I'd lock
wheels and go down.
--
- Frank Krygowski



Please try some and report back.

Lou
  #87  
Old September 25th 17, 02:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Road Discs

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 1:27:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 11:16:25 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 2:11:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.









You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for
the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!


As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.


The real reason is weight, the rest is marketing BS.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.


Tom, really that is no problem for the majority of people. You can have an opinion about disk brakes, but one thing that almost everyone agree upon
is the positive feedback you get from disk brakes.


Lou, there is NO weight difference between the single and double pivot.

  #88  
Old September 25th 17, 02:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Road Discs

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 3:20:58 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 1:27:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 11:16:25 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 2:11:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.









You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for
the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!

As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.


The real reason is weight, the rest is marketing BS.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.


Tom, really that is no problem for the majority of people. You can have an opinion about disk brakes, but one thing that almost everyone agree upon
is the positive feedback you get from disk brakes.


Lou, there is NO weight difference between the single and double pivot.


I'm sure there is:
Record-D Skeleton 2007 279 g 282 g +1,08% front/rear: 152/130 g

Lou
  #89  
Old September 25th 17, 02:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Road Discs

On 9/25/2017 8:20 AM, wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 1:27:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 11:16:25 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 2:11:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.









You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for
the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!

As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.


The real reason is weight, the rest is marketing BS.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.


Tom, really that is no problem for the majority of people. You can have an opinion about disk brakes, but one thing that almost everyone agree upon
is the positive feedback you get from disk brakes.


Lou, there is NO weight difference between the single and double pivot.


Uh, Tom, Super Record DP are 149 grams, the rear single
pivot caliper is 123 grams.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #90  
Old September 25th 17, 03:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Road Discs

On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 8:04:15 PM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
My concern with buying a disc brake bike now and planning to keep it for
possibly decades is that the technology is not mature yet. Rim brake
parts, as noted, will be available for pretty much the rest of my life.
But disc brakes may be still evolving to get rid of the weight penalty,
optimize rotor size, pad design, etc. Pretty much the only replacemetn
parts that rim brakes need are cables and pads.


Disc brakes are evolving, but the real incompatibilities result from different through axle standards and proprietary hub/dropout spacing (Specialized SCS). Disc caliper evolution is a problem only if mounts change -- which they have, but there are so many adapters out there that it doesn't matter. I'm running BB7 cable discs on my warranty replacement CAADX frame which has rear flat-mount and front post-mount for 140mm rotors (I use 160mm front). That meant getting two adapters which were actually quite cheap -- about $10 apiece. My cable discs only require a cable and run off ordinary levers.

Another concern, which may be unfounded, is that disc brakes stress
frames and wheels in much different ways than rim brakes do. I am not
sure that tecnhlogy has caught up with this yet. For example, on the
front wheel disc brakes can create a steering input during hard braking.
Braking forces are higher than acceleration forces, so this may affect
spoke and rim life.


Discs apply forces differently to the fork, and one hopes that the forks have been engineered to withstand those forces. I've been riding wheels I built for my commuter probably ten or more years ago with no problems -- plain-old 32 spoke, cheap Shimano M525 hubs (rear hub shot now) and Velocity Touring Disc rims, which is a discontinued 450g rim. The great part is that the rims are pristine apart from whatever beating they've taken from pot holes, etc. I would have worn them out in two years of commuting in the rain with a rim brake.



In terms of performance, I have only ridden a handful of cable actuated
disc brakes. I found them abrupt and grabby and I didn't like them.
But I may not have ridden best examples of the technology and things
have probably come along since then (several years ago). My brazed on
centerpulls, cantilevers and single pivot brakes have consistently an
safely stopped me for decades and I have no complaint about them, but
maybe someone will design the rim brake that converts me. Those brazed
on Mafacs are wonderful, BTW. What a great brake, but few people have
had the opportunity to try them.


Cable discs can be better or worse than rim brakes in terms of stopping power and modulation. If you don't watch your pad adjustment and wear, you can find yourself with really bad braking -- like "oh, crap, man!" That happened to me on my way home from work, flying down a super-steep hill. I stopped (after a while) and adjusted the pads, and everything was AOK. Hydraulics adjust automatically. You can blow through pads on both and have to watch pad wear. My front hydraulics on the Roubaix were stopping me with NO pads -- I was stopping with the pad carriers. Ooops. Not so great on the rotors. Other downsides are complexity (bleeding hydraulic), dragging, pad break-in, adjustment for different wheels if any change in disc location. Wheel changes are a little more complicated, but then again, if you had fat tires and were trying to get them through calipers, that would slow you down more. If you have through axles, that can mean rack and work-stand incompatibility. There is a weight and aerodynamic penalty, which is meaningless for most people.


Like I said, discs modulate well and have excellent stopping power -- far better in wet condition and on CF rims. I think they should be standard on rain bikes. They are standard on my rain bikes. They are totally unnecessary on a dry weather bike with metal rims. Other pluses are tire and fender clearance.

-- Jay Beattie.

 




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