IRD Freewheels : Worth 3x the cost ??

$14.95 for a 13-24 7-speed freewheel (sunrace) at bikeman.com
$12.95 for a 13-24 7-speed freewheel (nashbar) at nashbar.com

I remember that when IRD first announced their 'defiant'
freewheels, they were touted as being high quality, worthy
of going onto phil wood freewheel hubs (which were supposedly
1/3rd the cost of a phil wood cassette hub.) They were supposed to be
exact copies of Shimano Dura-Ace freewheels, but in reality, they
simply aren't.

Now, I am seeing 13-24 7-speed freewheels that are 1/3rd the cost of
an IRD freewheel, at $40. Are we really going to get 3x the service
life on the IRD 2nd generation freewheels? If we're supposed to use
IRD freewheels to save 2/3rds the cost of a Phil Wood hub, why not use
these freewheels to save 2/3rds the cost of an IRD Freewheel ??

Especially, if the IRD bodies cannot be opened or easily oiled ?? Has
anyone tried to move IRD 2nd-generation cogs over to a dura ace
freewheel body? Do they fit ??

Thanx,

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

P.S.

http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/FW2129 sunrace @ bikeman

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?sku=11696 nashbar @ nashbar

"Donald Gillies" wrote in message
...
| $14.95 for a 13-24 7-speed freewheel (sunrace) at bikeman.com
| $12.95 for a 13-24 7-speed freewheel (nashbar) at nashbar.com
|
| I remember that when IRD first announced their 'defiant'
| freewheels, they were touted as being high quality, worthy
| of going onto phil wood freewheel hubs (which were supposedly
| 1/3rd the cost of a phil wood cassette hub.) They were supposed to be
| exact copies of Shimano Dura-Ace freewheels, but in reality, they
| simply aren't.
|
| Now, I am seeing 13-24 7-speed freewheels that are 1/3rd the cost of
| an IRD freewheel, at $40. Are we really going to get 3x the service
| life on the IRD 2nd generation freewheels? If we're supposed to use
| IRD freewheels to save 2/3rds the cost of a Phil Wood hub, why not use
| these freewheels to save 2/3rds the cost of an IRD Freewheel ??
|
| Especially, if the IRD bodies cannot be opened or easily oiled ?? Has
| anyone tried to move IRD 2nd-generation cogs over to a dura ace
| freewheel body? Do they fit ??
|
| Thanx,
|
| - Don Gillies
| San Diego, CA, USA
|
| P.S.
|
| http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/FW2129 sunrace @ bikeman
|
| http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?sku=11696 nashbar @ nashbar

Don: Your posts are usually pretty easy to follow, but this one isn't coming
through. I don't understand the references to Phil Wood hubs and how that
relates to IRD. How does using an IRD freewheel save 2/3rds the cost of a
Phil Wood hub? Etc.

In any event, my personal experience with IRD cassettes & freewheels is that
they usually offer something not found elsewhere, but they're not ultimate
quality by any stretch of the imagination. They get credit, in other words,
for allowing 10-speed folk to have wide-range gearing (up to 34t rear
cassette size, instead of the 27 Shimano or 28 SRAM offers), but, for their
price, the quality isn't what one would expect. Very heavy, and don't shift
as nicely as a Shimano (and yet cost quite a bit more).

But again, they're providing a service that nobody else is.

I do like the description given for the freewheel though, from the IRD
website- http://www.interlocracing.com/freewheels_steel.html

Index shifting waves and special teeth profiles (looks just like the teeth
on the SunRace)
Nickel plated cogs (ditto above)
Heat-treated for durability (non-heat-treated cogs would be very unusual
and wear like butter; my guess is that SunRace cogs are also heat-treated)
Polycarbonate glass fiber spacers (OK, that might be normal or not, I
honestly don't know, but also don't recall a failure of a freewheel spacer)
Double row precision bearings (Hopefully I've *never* sold a freewheel with
just one row of bearings. Don't think I've seen one either)
Double pawl mechanism w/ 20 interface ratchets (Double pawls are the norm;
don't know how many ratchets are commonly used)
Labyrinth seals (which simply means overlapping metal; you can't visibly
look into it and see bearings)

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

On Apr 11, 7:51*pm, (Donald Gillies) wrote:
$14.95 for a 13-24 7-speed freewheel (sunrace) at bikeman.com
$12.95 for a 13-24 7-speed freewheel (nashbar) atnashbar.com

Buy one of each and give us a report back in six months. Sunrace is
certainly capable of making a quality product, and Nashbar is known
for re-branding quite decent Taiwanese stuff. That said, there have
been some reports in this group about the Nashbar cassettes not
lasting as long--but who knows where they came from. Buy a couple, let
us know--it'll be more rewarding than playing the lottery. Taiwanese
lesser known manufacturers are putting out some quality kit. We just
discussed this a while back in relation to Nashbar square taper BBs,
made by RPM, and ridiculously smooth and cheap.

On Apr 12, 12:51*am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
"Donald Gillies" wrote in message

...
| $14.95 for a 13-24 7-speed freewheel (sunrace) at bikeman.com
| $12.95 for a 13-24 7-speed freewheel (nashbar) at nashbar.com
|
| I remember that when IRD first announced their 'defiant'
| freewheels, they were touted as being high quality, worthy
| of going onto phil wood freewheel hubs (which were supposedly
| 1/3rd the cost of a phil wood cassette hub.) *They were supposed to be
| exact copies of Shimano Dura-Ace freewheels, but in reality, they
| simply aren't.
|
| Now, I am seeing 13-24 7-speed freewheels that are 1/3rd the cost of
| an IRD freewheel, at $40. *Are we really going to get 3x the service
| life on the IRD 2nd generation freewheels? *If we're supposed to use
| IRD freewheels to save 2/3rds the cost of a Phil Wood hub, why not use
| these freewheels to save 2/3rds the cost of an IRD Freewheel ??
|
| Especially, if the IRD bodies cannot be opened or easily oiled ?? *Has
| anyone tried to move IRD 2nd-generation cogs over to a dura ace
| freewheel body? *Do they fit ??
|
| Thanx,
|
| - Don Gillies
| San Diego, CA, USA
|
| P.S.
|
| *http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/FW2129* *sunrace @ bikeman
|
| *http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?sku=11696* * nashbar @ nashbar

Don: Your posts are usually pretty easy to follow, but this one isn't coming
through. I don't understand the references to Phil Wood hubs and how that
relates to IRD. How does using an IRD freewheel save 2/3rds the cost of a
Phil Wood hub? Etc.

http://www.philwood.com/Specroadhubs.htm

Phil freewheel hub $151. Phil cassette hub $384. 39%. Freewheel
hubs available for 5,6,7,8 speed freewheels. If you were going to use
a 7 or 8 speed cassette, maybe comparable.







In any event, my personal experience with IRD cassettes & freewheels is that
they usually offer something not found elsewhere, but they're not ultimate
quality by any stretch of the imagination. They get credit, in other words,
for allowing 10-speed folk to have wide-range gearing (up to 34t rear
cassette size, instead of the 27 Shimano or 28 SRAM offers), but, for their
price, the quality isn't what one would expect. Very heavy, and don't shift
as nicely as a Shimano (and yet cost quite a bit more).

But again, they're providing a service that nobody else is.

I do like the description given for the freewheel though, from the IRD
website-http://www.interlocracing.com/freewheels_steel.html

Index shifting waves and special teeth profiles *(looks just like the teeth
on the SunRace)
Nickel plated cogs *(ditto above)
Heat-treated for durability *(non-heat-treated cogs would be very unusual
and wear like butter; my guess is that SunRace cogs are also heat-treated)
Polycarbonate glass fiber spacers *(OK, that might be normal or not, I
honestly don't know, but also don't recall a failure of a freewheel spacer)

Pretty sure all Campagnolo 9 speed cassette spacers are
polycarbonate. Reddish yellowish colored when new. Some of the 10
speed spacers are also poly. I've broken more than a few spacers.
Fortunately new cassettes come with new spacers. And even broken
spacers work if you have enough of the pieces.




Double row precision bearings *(Hopefully I've *never* sold a freewheel with
just one row of bearings. Don't think I've seen one either)
Double pawl mechanism w/ 20 interface ratchets *(Double pawls are the norm;
don't know how many ratchets are commonly used)
Labyrinth seals *(which simply means overlapping metal; you can't visibly
look into it and see bearings)

--Mike-- * * Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com

wrote:

Phil freewheel hub $151. Phil cassette hub $384. 39%. Freewheel
hubs available for 5,6,7,8 speed freewheels. If you were going to use
a 7 or 8 speed cassette, maybe comparable.

If you were going to run a 9 or 10-speed cassette, it's still
comparable. So far, there has been no expansion of gearing range
offered by higher sprocket counts. In fact, the widest gearing
offered for 9-speed is 11-34 (309%), whereas the widest gearing
offered by 7-speed freewheels was 12-38 (317%). 10-speed gearing
doesn't offer anything even close.

A freewheel hub like the Phil gives better dish than 8/9/10-speed
cassette (for any given dropout spacing), a larger and stronger axle,
and a more robust ratcheting mechanism that is cheaper and easier to
replace.

I recently killed my only cassette hub (a tandem-spec 48 hole unit)
while climbing a small hill near my house. That's never happened to
me with a freewheel.

Chalo

Chalo writes:

If you were going to run a 9 or 10-speed cassette, it's still
comparable. So far, there has been no expansion of gearing range
offered by higher sprocket counts. In fact, the widest gearing
offered for 9-speed is 11-34 (309%), whereas the widest gearing
offered by 7-speed freewheels was 12-38 (317%). 10-speed gearing
doesn't offer anything even close.

insightful comment, thanx !! Also, it's been evident for a long time
that more and more gears in the rear accomplishes only two things, (a)
Faster chain wearout (cogs haven't been getting thinner), and (b) More
and more shifts necessary up front !! a 53-12 is very seldom a useful
gear for the man-on-the-street. A typical 39-25 isn't an improvement
over the old days, either (when 42/28 gave an even lower gear !!)

A freewheel hub like the Phil gives better dish than 8/9/10-speed
cassette (for any given dropout spacing),

agreed.

a larger and stronger axle,

How can this be true? The right-side bearing of a freewheel hub is
unsupported - its 30-35mm in from the dropouts, making it far more
vulnerable to pedaling torques. I am not aware of anyone breaking
9-speed or 10-speed freehub axles ... anyone? Anyone????

and a more robust ratcheting mechanism that is cheaper and easier to
replace. I recently killed my only cassette hub (a tandem-spec 48
hole unit) while climbing a small hill near my house. That's never
happened to me with a freewheel.

I am not sure this is true. There existed in the past 4-pawl
freewheels specifically for tandem application, indicating that 2-pawl
freewheels were failure-prone on tandems. And, I understood from
Sheldon Brown's website, concerning upgrade from uniglide to
hyperglide freehubs, that Shimano freehub ratchet mechanisms are
widely available?? So ratchet mechanism replacements are simple? Is
that a falsehood ??

Chalo

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

Donald Gillies wrote:

Chalo writes:

[Phil freewheel hubs offer] a larger and stronger axle,

How can this be true? The right-side bearing of a freewheel hub is
unsupported - its 30-35mm in from the dropouts, making it far more
vulnerable to pedaling torques. I am not aware of anyone breaking
9-speed or 10-speed freehub axles ... anyone? Anyone????

The Shimano cassette freehub design is limited to a 10mm threaded
axle. There are other variations, but at the expense of strength in
the ratchet-- and they top out at 12mm. I have broken 10mm cassette
hub axles (7-speed). I have also broken 9.5 and 10mm freewheel hub
axles, but I have never broken a larger diameter unthreaded hub
axle.

Phil freewheel hubs use a 15mm smooth axle. Up to 19mm is
hypothetically feasible, since a Shimano-type freewheel spline allows
that diameter. Even accounting for drive side overhang, a 15mm smooth
axle outclasses a 10mm threaded axle.

and a more robust ratcheting mechanism that is cheaper and
easier to replace.

I am not sure this is true. There existed in the past 4-pawl
freewheels specifically for tandem application, indicating that 2-pawl
freewheels were failure-prone on tandems.

I can only speak from my experience with equipment I have used and
serviced. I have messed up cassettes and gearhubs, but not freewheels
(despite most of my miles being on freewheel-equipped bikes). The
multispeed freewheels I've used include various Suntour, Shimano,
Sachs-Maillard, SunRace, and Falcon models in 5, 6, and 7-speed
versions.

It stands to reason that cassette ratchets would not be as hardy as
their freewheel equivalents-- not only is the torque applied through a
smaller radius, but the structure holding back the expansion of the
pawls is much less rigid. Compare the outer shell of a freehub body
to the outer shell of any freewheel body. From what I have seen, the
pawls themselves are more or less equivalent between the two types.

And, I understood from
Sheldon Brown's website, concerning upgrade from uniglide to
hyperglide freehubs, that Shimano freehub ratchet mechanisms are
widely available?? So ratchet mechanism replacements are simple? Is
that a falsehood ??

To replace the ratchet mechanism of a freewheel hub, you simply
replace the freewheel. You unscrew it with a spline tool and mount a
new one. This operation costs at least $10 for a new freewheel.
Usually I pay $20 for a new 11-34 7-speed freewheel. In the process,
I get all new freewheel bearings and sprockets along with a new
ratchet.

For a cassette freehub, you have to remove the cassette lockring (a
slightly fussier operation involving a chain whip and a different
spline tool) and the cassette sprockets, then remove the hub axle and
bearings, then use a 10mm hex key or a special spline tool to remove
the freehub body. Replace the freehub body; clean, regrease, and
adjust the axle bearings; and replace the sprockets and lockring. It
looks like the parts cost of this operation starts at approximately
$20 for a freehub body. The new freehub body comes with new bearings
and pawls, but the sprockets must be replaced separately at much
greater cost.

Chalo

On Apr 13, 10:20*pm, (Donald Gillies) wrote:
Chalo writes:
If you were going to run a 9 or 10-speed cassette, it's still
comparable. *So far, there has been no expansion of gearing range
offered by higher sprocket counts.

Is gearing range a problem? Is there a need to expand it? How much
lower of a low do you need than a 34 rear cog? 34 is available in
7-8-9-10 cassettes and/or freewheels. How much higher of a high do
you need than an 11 or 12 cog? This is readily available if you want
it. Its apparent you are arguing for a wider gear range just because
it can be done even though it has no purpose. And you condemn 9-10
speed cassettes for not doing something pointless. Bizarre.


*In fact, the widest gearing
offered for 9-speed is 11-34 (309%), whereas the widest gearing
offered by 7-speed freewheels was 12-38 (317%). *10-speed gearing
doesn't offer anything even close.

IRD makes a 10 speed cassette in 11-34(Shimano) and
11-32(Campagnolo). Seems pretty close to 11-34 9 speed. As for your
12-38 7 speed freewheel, who sells that today? Please give a source.

300+% range on the cluster. Not unless its for a special purpose
bike. Sounds like the marketing for the Rohloff hub. 500+% gear
range. Only problem is the huge jumps between gears to achieve that.
Maybe good for special purpose bikes. But not for ordinary enjoyable
riding.



insightful comment, thanx !! *Also, it's been evident for a long time
that more and more gears in the rear accomplishes only two things, (a)
Faster chain wearout (cogs haven't been getting thinner), and (b) More
and more shifts necessary up front !! *a 53-12 is very seldom a useful
gear for the man-on-the-street. *A typical 39-25 isn't an improvement
over the old days, either (when 42/28 gave an even lower gear !!)

Why don't you just use a 42 chainring? You claim to know a lot about
bicycles, yet you assume 39 is the only chainring. Odd. If I want I
can go an entire day in the 42 ring without shifting the front at
all. And I use cassettes with 13 tooth small cogs on most of my
bikes. They are widely available from Shimano and Campagnolo. You
assume incorrectly that 12 (or 11) is the only thing available when
using a 53 ring. Odd.



A freewheel hub like the Phil gives better dish than 8/9/10-speed
cassette (for any given dropout spacing),

agreed.

a larger and stronger axle,

How can this be true? *The right-side bearing of a freewheel hub is
unsupported - its 30-35mm in from the dropouts, making it far more
vulnerable to pedaling torques. *I am not aware of anyone breaking
9-speed or 10-speed freehub axles ... anyone? *Anyone????

and a more robust ratcheting mechanism that is cheaper and easier to
replace. *I recently killed my only cassette hub (a tandem-spec 48
hole unit) while climbing a small hill near my house. *That's never
happened to me with a freewheel.

I am not sure this is true. *There existed in the past 4-pawl
freewheels specifically for tandem application, indicating that 2-pawl
freewheels were failure-prone on tandems. *And, I understood from
Sheldon Brown's website, concerning upgrade from uniglide to
hyperglide freehubs, that Shimano freehub ratchet mechanisms are
widely available?? *So ratchet mechanism replacements are simple? *Is
that a falsehood ??

Chalo

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

russellseaton1 wrote:

Donald Gillies wrote:

Chalo writes:

If you were going to run a 9 or 10-speed cassette, it's still
comparable. So far, there has been no expansion of gearing range
offered by higher sprocket counts.

Is gearing range a problem? Is there a need to expand it? How much
lower of a low do you need than a 34 rear cog?

That, like everything, depends on the application. But there are
plenty of folks who would use wider ranging gearing and lower lows if
they were available. All the pedicabbers I know fall into that
category.

34 is available in
7-8-9-10 cassettes and/or freewheels.

I wasn't aware that 10 speed clusters were offered with larger
sprockets than 27t or whatever it is that Shimano and Campy see fit to
produce.

Its apparent you are arguing for a wider gear range just because
it can be done even though it has no purpose. And you condemn 9-10
speed cassettes for not doing something pointless. Bizarre.

There are identifiable, quantifiable benefits to wider gearing. Maybe
not for you, but for folks who actually use their bikes and trikes for
things. For cargo bikers, velomobilists, railbikers, and electric-
assist bikers, wider gearing is obviously useful-- that is, it will
allow them to do things that can't be done, or can't be done with a
reasonable and sustainable effort, with narrower gearing.

Having ten sprockets doesn't allow _anything_ that can't be done just
as well with seven sprockets in the same overall range (besides wreck
your rear wheel).

IRD makes a 10 speed cassette in 11-34(Shimano) and
11-32(Campagnolo). Seems pretty close to 11-34 9 speed.

Agreed. I didn't know about those things because the cassette hub
manufacturers don't offer them.

As for your
12-38 7 speed freewheel, who sells that today?

That was never an off-the-shelf option. You had to build them from
Suntour Winner Pro freewheels and a couple of loose sprockets. But
you could do it with readily available parts. I did it a couple of
times.

300+% range on the cluster. Not unless its for a special purpose
bike. Sounds like the marketing for the Rohloff hub. 500+% gear
range. Only problem is the huge jumps between gears to achieve that.

"Huge" 13% jumps, eh? You sound like my sister who is only
comfortable between 72 and 74 degrees.

Maybe good for special purpose bikes. But not for ordinary enjoyable
riding.

I look around and see that most of the people in my town doing
ordinary enjoyable riding are doing it on one-speed bikes-- fixies,
cruisers, SS conversions, BMX bikes, and purpose-built SS mountain
bikes. I guess that's sort of the same in principle as an ideal 10-
speed "straight block" of 13-13-13-13-13-13-13-13-13-13 gearing, with
nice tight 0% spacing between gears.

Most of the rest of them are using derailleur bikes with no more than
seven speeds on the cluster (because the bikes are old enough or cheap
enough that they never had more gears than that). If you ask them how
much they mind their "huge" jumps between gears, they won't know what
you're talking about. The only ones with bikes whose gears have no
"huge" jumps by your standards are the kit-wearing poseurs. And if
you want to talk to them, you'll have to look on one of a select few
roads around here on Sunday morning, chase after them, and stare down
their scowls.

The rest of the week, the streets belong to those who can't possibly
enjoy riding because their gears are too far apart. Their smiles must
be about something else.

Chalo

Chalo Colina wrote:
russellseaton1 wrote:
[...]
300+% range on the cluster. Not unless its for a special purpose
bike. Sounds like the marketing for the Rohloff hub. 500+% gear
range. Only problem is the huge jumps between gears to achieve that.

"Huge" 13% jumps, eh? You sound like my sister who is only
comfortable between 72 and 74 degrees.[...]

"Humans are not Peterbilt trucks..." - Jobst Brandt

--
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The weather is here, wish you were beautiful