There should be a law against ramming.

On Mar 29, 12:25*pm, Doug wrote:
On Mar 29, 10:29*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 8:00*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 28, 11:40*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 28, 8:12*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 27, 11:48*am, Adrian wrote:

Doug gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

I see. *Could you please explain how, in a country "run" according to
anarchist principles, you would get large corporations to pay tax. You
have started another thread bemoaning the fact that corporations avoid
paying tax so far as possible, so I'd be fascinated how you would
collect tax from them in a country where no-one is in charge..
If you want to learn about anarchism then start by reading this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

That's nice, dear. But I'd like to hear YOU give YOUR opinion in YOUR
words.

If corporations want to operate and sell in this country then they
should obey its laws and our governments shouldn't try to 'cosy up' to
those corporations.

So - about how that's going to square with "anarchism", Duhg?

What people like you, in your little black or white worlds, fail to
understand is that anarchism can be partial and localised with a
minimised form of central government, which has a law against
deliberate ramming by motorists.

Ah, so now it's "Pick'n'Mix" anarchism, is it? *You take the good bits
(from your pov) of the state e.g. dole money, social housing, NHS, but
reject the bad bits (rules preventing you and your mates from doing
whatever you like). *Can we all play the Pick'n'Mix game? *If so, I'll
take the laws that protect me from you and your mates, but reject
having to pay the portion of my tax that clothes, feeds and houses
you. *Sound fair?

No its not pick and mix.

Anarchism is already practiced by many small groups within the larger
society. There is no reason why those groups could not grow and spread
and try to stop the constant proliferation of criminalising laws
emanating from this phoney democracy, for example.

Splendid, Doug. *But you still haven't dealt with the main issue. *How
would taxes be levied, collected and enforced in a society without a
state? *Or would you retain the state for that purpose?

There is nothing to prevent anarchists setting up non-hierarchical
organisations to serve special purposes and run by volunteers chosen
by consensus. Thus there could be a bank owned by the people which
collects taxes.

What if a minority of the anarchists did not agree with the
organisations and the bank, would they be free to smash its windows
without let or hindrance from the other anarchists?

Would anarchists be allowed to dictate to others about their lifestyle
options. e.g. If the majority were vegan, could they dictate that the
minority would not be allowed to eat meat?


Why do you find this stuff so difficult to understand
when it is so widely documented? A lot of it is covered by the co-
operative movement or by friendly societies, etc. It is as if you have
been indoctrinated about the status quo from birth and know nothing
different.

On Mar 29, 12:32*pm, BrianW wrote:
On Mar 29, 12:25*pm, Doug wrote:



On Mar 29, 10:29*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 8:00*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 28, 11:40*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 28, 8:12*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 27, 11:48*am, Adrian wrote:

Doug gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

I see. *Could you please explain how, in a country "run" according to
anarchist principles, you would get large corporations to pay tax. You
have started another thread bemoaning the fact that corporations avoid
paying tax so far as possible, so I'd be fascinated how you would
collect tax from them in a country where no-one is in charge.
If you want to learn about anarchism then start by reading this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

That's nice, dear. But I'd like to hear YOU give YOUR opinion in YOUR
words.

If corporations want to operate and sell in this country then they
should obey its laws and our governments shouldn't try to 'cosy up' to
those corporations.

So - about how that's going to square with "anarchism", Duhg?

What people like you, in your little black or white worlds, fail to
understand is that anarchism can be partial and localised with a
minimised form of central government, which has a law against
deliberate ramming by motorists.

Ah, so now it's "Pick'n'Mix" anarchism, is it? *You take the good bits
(from your pov) of the state e.g. dole money, social housing, NHS, but
reject the bad bits (rules preventing you and your mates from doing
whatever you like). *Can we all play the Pick'n'Mix game? *If so, I'll
take the laws that protect me from you and your mates, but reject
having to pay the portion of my tax that clothes, feeds and houses
you. *Sound fair?

No its not pick and mix.

Anarchism is already practiced by many small groups within the larger
society. There is no reason why those groups could not grow and spread
and try to stop the constant proliferation of criminalising laws
emanating from this phoney democracy, for example.

Splendid, Doug. *But you still haven't dealt with the main issue. *How
would taxes be levied, collected and enforced in a society without a
state? *Or would you retain the state for that purpose?

There is nothing to prevent anarchists setting up non-hierarchical
organisations to serve special purposes and run by volunteers chosen
by consensus. Thus there could be a bank owned by the people which
collects taxes.

Fascinating, Doug, absolutely fascinating. *So you envisage taking the
right to levy taxation away from the government, and giving it to a
bank instead. *A novel idea. *How would the level of tax be decided,
Doug? *And what penalties would there be for not paying tax owed to
the bank. *Would the bank have the right to imprison people?

Why do you find this stuff so difficult to understand
when it is so widely documented?

I'm not aware of any documentation covering the levying, collection
and enforcement of taxes by anyone other than governments, Doug.
Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right direction?
Shouldn't be hard, as it is "so widely documented" ...

A lot of it is covered by the co-
operative movement or by friendly societies, etc.

I'm not aware of any instances of compulsory taxes being levied,
collected and enforced by the co-operative movement or by friendly
societies. *Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right
direction?

It is as if you have
been indoctrinated about the status quo from birth and know nothing
different.

Not at all. *I just need to understand the mechanics of how your
proposed society would work, Doug.

So what other systems do you know about and why do you still know
nothing about anarchism?

There are so many variables that it is impossible to predict how it
would turn out.
There are groups of anarchists all over the world and have been for a
long time. As you seem to be so interested in the subject but lack the
necessary knowledge I suggest you make a start by reading this,
instead of expecting me to tutor you here in such a vast subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Doug.

On Mar 30, 8:18*am, Doug wrote:
On Mar 29, 12:32*pm, BrianW wrote:



On Mar 29, 12:25*pm, Doug wrote:

On Mar 29, 10:29*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 8:00*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 28, 11:40*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 28, 8:12*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 27, 11:48*am, Adrian wrote:

Doug gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

I see. *Could you please explain how, in a country "run" according to
anarchist principles, you would get large corporations to pay tax. You
have started another thread bemoaning the fact that corporations avoid
paying tax so far as possible, so I'd be fascinated how you would
collect tax from them in a country where no-one is in charge.
If you want to learn about anarchism then start by reading this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

That's nice, dear. But I'd like to hear YOU give YOUR opinion in YOUR
words.

If corporations want to operate and sell in this country then they
should obey its laws and our governments shouldn't try to 'cosy up' to
those corporations.

So - about how that's going to square with "anarchism", Duhg?

What people like you, in your little black or white worlds, fail to
understand is that anarchism can be partial and localised with a
minimised form of central government, which has a law against
deliberate ramming by motorists.

Ah, so now it's "Pick'n'Mix" anarchism, is it? *You take the good bits
(from your pov) of the state e.g. dole money, social housing, NHS, but
reject the bad bits (rules preventing you and your mates from doing
whatever you like). *Can we all play the Pick'n'Mix game? *If so, I'll
take the laws that protect me from you and your mates, but reject
having to pay the portion of my tax that clothes, feeds and houses
you. *Sound fair?

No its not pick and mix.

Anarchism is already practiced by many small groups within the larger
society. There is no reason why those groups could not grow and spread
and try to stop the constant proliferation of criminalising laws
emanating from this phoney democracy, for example.

Splendid, Doug. *But you still haven't dealt with the main issue. *How
would taxes be levied, collected and enforced in a society without a
state? *Or would you retain the state for that purpose?

There is nothing to prevent anarchists setting up non-hierarchical
organisations to serve special purposes and run by volunteers chosen
by consensus. Thus there could be a bank owned by the people which
collects taxes.

Fascinating, Doug, absolutely fascinating. *So you envisage taking the
right to levy taxation away from the government, and giving it to a
bank instead. *A novel idea. *How would the level of tax be decided,
Doug? *And what penalties would there be for not paying tax owed to
the bank. *Would the bank have the right to imprison people?

Why do you find this stuff so difficult to understand
when it is so widely documented?

I'm not aware of any documentation covering the levying, collection
and enforcement of taxes by anyone other than governments, Doug.
Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right direction?
Shouldn't be hard, as it is "so widely documented" ...

A lot of it is covered by the co-
operative movement or by friendly societies, etc.

I'm not aware of any instances of compulsory taxes being levied,
collected and enforced by the co-operative movement or by friendly
societies. *Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right
direction?

It is as if you have
been indoctrinated about the status quo from birth and know nothing
different.

Not at all. *I just need to understand the mechanics of how your
proposed society would work, Doug.

So what other systems do you know about and why do you still know
nothing about anarchism?

There are so many variables that it is impossible to predict how it
would turn out.
There are groups of anarchists all over the world and have been for a
long time. As you seem to be so interested in the subject but lack the
necessary knowledge I suggest you make a start by reading this,
instead of expecting me to tutor you here in such a vast subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Yes, Doug, you already referred me to that. As, indeed, you always
do. That page does not, unfortunately, address any of the issues I
have raised. So why don't you explain, in your own words, how
compulsory taxation would be levied, collected and enforced, in a
country run according to anarchist principles.

On Mar 30, 8:58*am, BrianW wrote:
On Mar 30, 8:18*am, Doug wrote:





On Mar 29, 12:32*pm, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 12:25*pm, Doug wrote:

On Mar 29, 10:29*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 8:00*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 28, 11:40*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 28, 8:12*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 27, 11:48*am, Adrian wrote:

Doug gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

I see. *Could you please explain how, in a country "run" according to
anarchist principles, you would get large corporations to pay tax. You
have started another thread bemoaning the fact that corporations avoid
paying tax so far as possible, so I'd be fascinated how you would
collect tax from them in a country where no-one is in charge.
If you want to learn about anarchism then start by reading this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

That's nice, dear. But I'd like to hear YOU give YOUR opinion in YOUR
words.

If corporations want to operate and sell in this country then they
should obey its laws and our governments shouldn't try to 'cosy up' to
those corporations.

So - about how that's going to square with "anarchism", Duhg?

What people like you, in your little black or white worlds, fail to
understand is that anarchism can be partial and localised with a
minimised form of central government, which has a law against
deliberate ramming by motorists.

Ah, so now it's "Pick'n'Mix" anarchism, is it? *You take the good bits
(from your pov) of the state e.g. dole money, social housing, NHS, but
reject the bad bits (rules preventing you and your mates from doing
whatever you like). *Can we all play the Pick'n'Mix game? *If so, I'll
take the laws that protect me from you and your mates, but reject
having to pay the portion of my tax that clothes, feeds and houses
you. *Sound fair?

No its not pick and mix.

Anarchism is already practiced by many small groups within the larger
society. There is no reason why those groups could not grow and spread
and try to stop the constant proliferation of criminalising laws
emanating from this phoney democracy, for example.

Splendid, Doug. *But you still haven't dealt with the main issue. *How
would taxes be levied, collected and enforced in a society without a
state? *Or would you retain the state for that purpose?

There is nothing to prevent anarchists setting up non-hierarchical
organisations to serve special purposes and run by volunteers chosen
by consensus. Thus there could be a bank owned by the people which
collects taxes.

Fascinating, Doug, absolutely fascinating. *So you envisage taking the
right to levy taxation away from the government, and giving it to a
bank instead. *A novel idea. *How would the level of tax be decided,
Doug? *And what penalties would there be for not paying tax owed to
the bank. *Would the bank have the right to imprison people?

Why do you find this stuff so difficult to understand
when it is so widely documented?

I'm not aware of any documentation covering the levying, collection
and enforcement of taxes by anyone other than governments, Doug.
Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right direction?
Shouldn't be hard, as it is "so widely documented" ...

A lot of it is covered by the co-
operative movement or by friendly societies, etc.

I'm not aware of any instances of compulsory taxes being levied,
collected and enforced by the co-operative movement or by friendly
societies. *Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right
direction?

It is as if you have
been indoctrinated about the status quo from birth and know nothing
different.

Not at all. *I just need to understand the mechanics of how your
proposed society would work, Doug.

So what other systems do you know about and why do you still know
nothing about anarchism?

There are so many variables that it is impossible to predict how it
would turn out.
There are groups of anarchists all over the world and have been for a
long time. As you seem to be so interested in the subject but lack the
necessary knowledge I suggest you make a start by reading this,
instead of expecting me to tutor you here in such a vast subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Yes, Doug, you already referred me to that. *As, indeed, you always
do. *That page does not, unfortunately, address any of the issues I
have raised. *So why don't you explain, in your own words, how
compulsory taxation would be levied, collected and enforced, in a
country run according to anarchist principles.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Perhaps he could also update Wikipedia as well.

On Mar 30, 8:58*am, BrianW wrote:
On Mar 30, 8:18*am, Doug wrote:



On Mar 29, 12:32*pm, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 12:25*pm, Doug wrote:

On Mar 29, 10:29*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 8:00*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 28, 11:40*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 28, 8:12*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 27, 11:48*am, Adrian wrote:

Doug gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

I see. *Could you please explain how, in a country "run" according to
anarchist principles, you would get large corporations to pay tax. You
have started another thread bemoaning the fact that corporations avoid
paying tax so far as possible, so I'd be fascinated how you would
collect tax from them in a country where no-one is in charge.
If you want to learn about anarchism then start by reading this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

That's nice, dear. But I'd like to hear YOU give YOUR opinion in YOUR
words.

If corporations want to operate and sell in this country then they
should obey its laws and our governments shouldn't try to 'cosy up' to
those corporations.

So - about how that's going to square with "anarchism", Duhg?

What people like you, in your little black or white worlds, fail to
understand is that anarchism can be partial and localised with a
minimised form of central government, which has a law against
deliberate ramming by motorists.

Ah, so now it's "Pick'n'Mix" anarchism, is it? *You take the good bits
(from your pov) of the state e.g. dole money, social housing, NHS, but
reject the bad bits (rules preventing you and your mates from doing
whatever you like). *Can we all play the Pick'n'Mix game? *If so, I'll
take the laws that protect me from you and your mates, but reject
having to pay the portion of my tax that clothes, feeds and houses
you. *Sound fair?

No its not pick and mix.

Anarchism is already practiced by many small groups within the larger
society. There is no reason why those groups could not grow and spread
and try to stop the constant proliferation of criminalising laws
emanating from this phoney democracy, for example.

Splendid, Doug. *But you still haven't dealt with the main issue. *How
would taxes be levied, collected and enforced in a society without a
state? *Or would you retain the state for that purpose?

There is nothing to prevent anarchists setting up non-hierarchical
organisations to serve special purposes and run by volunteers chosen
by consensus. Thus there could be a bank owned by the people which
collects taxes.

Fascinating, Doug, absolutely fascinating. *So you envisage taking the
right to levy taxation away from the government, and giving it to a
bank instead. *A novel idea. *How would the level of tax be decided,
Doug? *And what penalties would there be for not paying tax owed to
the bank. *Would the bank have the right to imprison people?

Why do you find this stuff so difficult to understand
when it is so widely documented?

I'm not aware of any documentation covering the levying, collection
and enforcement of taxes by anyone other than governments, Doug.
Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right direction?
Shouldn't be hard, as it is "so widely documented" ...

A lot of it is covered by the co-
operative movement or by friendly societies, etc.

I'm not aware of any instances of compulsory taxes being levied,
collected and enforced by the co-operative movement or by friendly
societies. *Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right
direction?

It is as if you have
been indoctrinated about the status quo from birth and know nothing
different.

Not at all. *I just need to understand the mechanics of how your
proposed society would work, Doug.

So what other systems do you know about and why do you still know
nothing about anarchism?

There are so many variables that it is impossible to predict how it
would turn out.
There are groups of anarchists all over the world and have been for a
long time. As you seem to be so interested in the subject but lack the
necessary knowledge I suggest you make a start by reading this,
instead of expecting me to tutor you here in such a vast subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Yes, Doug, you already referred me to that. *As, indeed, you always
do. *That page does not, unfortunately, address any of the issues I
have raised. *So why don't you explain, in your own words, how
compulsory taxation would be levied, collected and enforced, in a
country run according to anarchist principles.

Which anarchist principles are you referring to? There are many
variants, as you should know by now, if you have bothered to read the
source I gave above.

As I have already suggested, a large central bank owned and run by the
people should be able to collect taxes. Banks are quite used to
collecting interest so why not taxes? As things stand at present taxes
are also collected locally by local governments and they could be
replaced by some form of friendly societies for tax collection.

Why don't you try to research this subject instead of keep on asking
me for information which you appear to lack?

Doug.

On Mar 30, 6:06*pm, Doug wrote:
On Mar 30, 8:58*am, BrianW wrote:



On Mar 30, 8:18*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 29, 12:32*pm, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 12:25*pm, Doug wrote:

On Mar 29, 10:29*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 8:00*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 28, 11:40*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 28, 8:12*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 27, 11:48*am, Adrian wrote:

Doug gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

I see. *Could you please explain how, in a country "run" according to
anarchist principles, you would get large corporations to pay tax. You
have started another thread bemoaning the fact that corporations avoid
paying tax so far as possible, so I'd be fascinated how you would
collect tax from them in a country where no-one is in charge.
If you want to learn about anarchism then start by reading this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

That's nice, dear. But I'd like to hear YOU give YOUR opinion in YOUR
words.

If corporations want to operate and sell in this country then they
should obey its laws and our governments shouldn't try to 'cosy up' to
those corporations.

So - about how that's going to square with "anarchism", Duhg?

What people like you, in your little black or white worlds, fail to
understand is that anarchism can be partial and localised with a
minimised form of central government, which has a law against
deliberate ramming by motorists.

Ah, so now it's "Pick'n'Mix" anarchism, is it? *You take the good bits
(from your pov) of the state e.g. dole money, social housing, NHS, but
reject the bad bits (rules preventing you and your mates from doing
whatever you like). *Can we all play the Pick'n'Mix game? *If so, I'll
take the laws that protect me from you and your mates, but reject
having to pay the portion of my tax that clothes, feeds and houses
you. *Sound fair?

No its not pick and mix.

Anarchism is already practiced by many small groups within the larger
society. There is no reason why those groups could not grow and spread
and try to stop the constant proliferation of criminalising laws
emanating from this phoney democracy, for example.

Splendid, Doug. *But you still haven't dealt with the main issue. *How
would taxes be levied, collected and enforced in a society without a
state? *Or would you retain the state for that purpose?

There is nothing to prevent anarchists setting up non-hierarchical
organisations to serve special purposes and run by volunteers chosen
by consensus. Thus there could be a bank owned by the people which
collects taxes.

Fascinating, Doug, absolutely fascinating. *So you envisage taking the
right to levy taxation away from the government, and giving it to a
bank instead. *A novel idea. *How would the level of tax be decided,
Doug? *And what penalties would there be for not paying tax owed to
the bank. *Would the bank have the right to imprison people?

Why do you find this stuff so difficult to understand
when it is so widely documented?

I'm not aware of any documentation covering the levying, collection
and enforcement of taxes by anyone other than governments, Doug.
Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right direction?
Shouldn't be hard, as it is "so widely documented" ...

A lot of it is covered by the co-
operative movement or by friendly societies, etc.

I'm not aware of any instances of compulsory taxes being levied,
collected and enforced by the co-operative movement or by friendly
societies. *Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right
direction?

It is as if you have
been indoctrinated about the status quo from birth and know nothing
different.

Not at all. *I just need to understand the mechanics of how your
proposed society would work, Doug.

So what other systems do you know about and why do you still know
nothing about anarchism?

There are so many variables that it is impossible to predict how it
would turn out.
There are groups of anarchists all over the world and have been for a
long time. As you seem to be so interested in the subject but lack the
necessary knowledge I suggest you make a start by reading this,
instead of expecting me to tutor you here in such a vast subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Yes, Doug, you already referred me to that. *As, indeed, you always
do. *That page does not, unfortunately, address any of the issues I
have raised. *So why don't you explain, in your own words, how
compulsory taxation would be levied, collected and enforced, in a
country run according to anarchist principles.

Which anarchist principles are you referring to? There are many
variants, as you should know by now, if you have bothered to read the
source I gave above.

I have read it, Doug. There are many anarchist principles, but they
all have one thing in common - reduction or abolition of the state.
Given that, to the best of my knowledge, tax is always levied,
collected and enforced by states, I'm just curious as to how you
envisage this being done in the absence of a state.

As I have already suggested, a large central bank owned and run by the
people should be able to collect taxes. Banks are quite used to
collecting interest so why not taxes?

OK, I'll ask again, Doug. Would this bank have the power to set tax
rates? And to punish people for non-payment? Do you envisage that
the bank would have the power to send people to prison if they refuse
to pay tax? Also, given the very poor performance of banks of late,
and the hatred they've engendered, particularly amongst anarchists,
I'm a little surprised to hear you proposing to give them such a
central role. How would the bankers be controlled, Doug?

Incidentally, how would the "large central bank owned and run by the
people" differ from the current Bank of England? Please be specific.

Please try and answer the questions, and don't just refer me back to
the Wikipedia page - I've read it and it doesn't answer the questions.

As things stand at present taxes
are also collected locally by local governments and they could be
replaced by some form of friendly societies for tax collection.

Would the friendly societies have the power to set tax rates? And to
punish people for non-payment? Do you envisage that the friendly
societies would have the power to send people to prison?

Please try and answer the questions, and don't just refer me back to
the Wikipedia page - I've read it and it doesn't answer the questions.

Why don't you try to research this subject instead of keep on asking
me for information which you appear to lack?

You are such an expert, Doug, that asking you seems the most obvious
solution. Also, you have obviously given the whole subject much
consideration, so I don't doubt you've thought long and hard about
such obvious practical matters and have a ready solution to hand.

On Mar 30, 9:04*pm, BrianW wrote:
On Mar 30, 6:06*pm, Doug wrote:



On Mar 30, 8:58*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 30, 8:18*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 29, 12:32*pm, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 12:25*pm, Doug wrote:

On Mar 29, 10:29*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 8:00*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 28, 11:40*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 28, 8:12*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 27, 11:48*am, Adrian wrote:

Doug gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

I see. *Could you please explain how, in a country "run" according to
anarchist principles, you would get large corporations to pay tax. You
have started another thread bemoaning the fact that corporations avoid
paying tax so far as possible, so I'd be fascinated how you would
collect tax from them in a country where no-one is in charge.
If you want to learn about anarchism then start by reading this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

That's nice, dear. But I'd like to hear YOU give YOUR opinion in YOUR
words.

If corporations want to operate and sell in this country then they
should obey its laws and our governments shouldn't try to 'cosy up' to
those corporations.

So - about how that's going to square with "anarchism", Duhg?

What people like you, in your little black or white worlds, fail to
understand is that anarchism can be partial and localised with a
minimised form of central government, which has a law against
deliberate ramming by motorists.

Ah, so now it's "Pick'n'Mix" anarchism, is it? *You take the good bits
(from your pov) of the state e.g. dole money, social housing, NHS, but
reject the bad bits (rules preventing you and your mates from doing
whatever you like). *Can we all play the Pick'n'Mix game? *If so, I'll
take the laws that protect me from you and your mates, but reject
having to pay the portion of my tax that clothes, feeds and houses
you. *Sound fair?

No its not pick and mix.

Anarchism is already practiced by many small groups within the larger
society. There is no reason why those groups could not grow and spread
and try to stop the constant proliferation of criminalising laws
emanating from this phoney democracy, for example.

Splendid, Doug. *But you still haven't dealt with the main issue. *How
would taxes be levied, collected and enforced in a society without a
state? *Or would you retain the state for that purpose?

There is nothing to prevent anarchists setting up non-hierarchical
organisations to serve special purposes and run by volunteers chosen
by consensus. Thus there could be a bank owned by the people which
collects taxes.

Fascinating, Doug, absolutely fascinating. *So you envisage taking the
right to levy taxation away from the government, and giving it to a
bank instead. *A novel idea. *How would the level of tax be decided,
Doug? *And what penalties would there be for not paying tax owed to
the bank. *Would the bank have the right to imprison people?

Why do you find this stuff so difficult to understand
when it is so widely documented?

I'm not aware of any documentation covering the levying, collection
and enforcement of taxes by anyone other than governments, Doug.
Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right direction?
Shouldn't be hard, as it is "so widely documented" ...

A lot of it is covered by the co-
operative movement or by friendly societies, etc.

I'm not aware of any instances of compulsory taxes being levied,
collected and enforced by the co-operative movement or by friendly
societies. *Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right
direction?

It is as if you have
been indoctrinated about the status quo from birth and know nothing
different.

Not at all. *I just need to understand the mechanics of how your
proposed society would work, Doug.

So what other systems do you know about and why do you still know
nothing about anarchism?

There are so many variables that it is impossible to predict how it
would turn out.
There are groups of anarchists all over the world and have been for a
long time. As you seem to be so interested in the subject but lack the
necessary knowledge I suggest you make a start by reading this,
instead of expecting me to tutor you here in such a vast subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Yes, Doug, you already referred me to that. *As, indeed, you always
do. *That page does not, unfortunately, address any of the issues I
have raised. *So why don't you explain, in your own words, how
compulsory taxation would be levied, collected and enforced, in a
country run according to anarchist principles.

Which anarchist principles are you referring to? There are many
variants, as you should know by now, if you have bothered to read the
source I gave above.

I have read it, Doug. *There are many anarchist principles, but they
all have one thing in common - reduction or abolition of the state.
Given that, to the best of my knowledge, tax is always levied,
collected and enforced by states, I'm just curious as to how you
envisage this being done in the absence of a state.

Why do you keep on repeating yourself? I have already told you, by
banks or societies. Also a reduced government can still collect taxes.

As I have already suggested, a large central bank owned and run by the
people should be able to collect taxes. Banks are quite used to
collecting interest so why not taxes?

OK, I'll ask again, Doug. *Would this bank have the power to set tax
rates? *And to punish people for non-payment? *Do you envisage that
the bank would have the power to send people to prison if they refuse
to pay tax? *Also, given the very poor performance of banks of late,
and the hatred they've engendered, particularly amongst anarchists,
I'm a little surprised to hear you proposing to give them such a
central role. *How would the bankers be controlled, Doug?

How do you think? The justice system is independent of government
anyway.

Incidentally, how would the "large central bank owned and run by the
people" differ from the current Bank of England? *Please be specific.

Please try and answer the questions, and don't just refer me back to
the Wikipedia page - I've read it and it doesn't answer the questions.

Why don't you answer your questions yourself by researching sources
like everybody else?

Here is just one example...

"A stateless society is a society that is not governed by a state. In
stateless societies, there is little concentration of authority; most
positions of authority that do exist are very limited in power and are
generally not permanently held positions; and social bodies that
resolve disputes through predefined rules tend to be small.[1]
Stateless societies are highly variable in economic organization, and
cultural practices.[2]

For most of human history people have lived in stateless societies.
However, few stateless societies exist today, since most of them have
been coerced into integrating with the state-based societies around
them.[3]"

As things stand at present taxes
are also collected locally by local governments and they could be
replaced by some form of friendly societies for tax collection.

Would the friendly societies have the power to set tax rates? *And to
punish people for non-payment? *Do you envisage that the friendly
societies would have the power to send people to prison?

Please try and answer the questions, and don't just refer me back to
the Wikipedia page - I've read it and it doesn't answer the questions.

Why don't you answer your questions yourself by researching sources
like everybody else?

Why don't you try to research this subject instead of keep on asking
me for information which you appear to lack?

You are such an expert, Doug, that asking you seems the most obvious
solution. *Also, you have obviously given the whole subject much
consideration, so I don't doubt you've thought long and hard about
such obvious practical matters and have a ready solution to hand.

It is not an obvious solution since I am not an expert and a newsgroup
such as this is not suitable for arguing in depth and is about a
different subject altogether, namely ramming. Do try to get your
priorities right.

Doug.

On Mar 31, 8:44*am, Doug wrote:
On Mar 30, 9:04*pm, BrianW wrote:



On Mar 30, 6:06*pm, Doug wrote:

On Mar 30, 8:58*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 30, 8:18*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 29, 12:32*pm, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 12:25*pm, Doug wrote:

On Mar 29, 10:29*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 29, 8:00*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 28, 11:40*am, BrianW wrote:

On Mar 28, 8:12*am, Doug wrote:

On Mar 27, 11:48*am, Adrian wrote:

Doug gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

I see. *Could you please explain how, in a country "run" according to
anarchist principles, you would get large corporations to pay tax. You
have started another thread bemoaning the fact that corporations avoid
paying tax so far as possible, so I'd be fascinated how you would
collect tax from them in a country where no-one is in charge.
If you want to learn about anarchism then start by reading this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

That's nice, dear. But I'd like to hear YOU give YOUR opinion in YOUR
words.

If corporations want to operate and sell in this country then they
should obey its laws and our governments shouldn't try to 'cosy up' to
those corporations.

So - about how that's going to square with "anarchism", Duhg?

What people like you, in your little black or white worlds, fail to
understand is that anarchism can be partial and localised with a
minimised form of central government, which has a law against
deliberate ramming by motorists.

Ah, so now it's "Pick'n'Mix" anarchism, is it? *You take the good bits
(from your pov) of the state e.g. dole money, social housing, NHS, but
reject the bad bits (rules preventing you and your mates from doing
whatever you like). *Can we all play the Pick'n'Mix game? *If so, I'll
take the laws that protect me from you and your mates, but reject
having to pay the portion of my tax that clothes, feeds and houses
you. *Sound fair?

No its not pick and mix.

Anarchism is already practiced by many small groups within the larger
society. There is no reason why those groups could not grow and spread
and try to stop the constant proliferation of criminalising laws
emanating from this phoney democracy, for example.

Splendid, Doug. *But you still haven't dealt with the main issue. *How
would taxes be levied, collected and enforced in a society without a
state? *Or would you retain the state for that purpose?

There is nothing to prevent anarchists setting up non-hierarchical
organisations to serve special purposes and run by volunteers chosen
by consensus. Thus there could be a bank owned by the people which
collects taxes.

Fascinating, Doug, absolutely fascinating. *So you envisage taking the
right to levy taxation away from the government, and giving it to a
bank instead. *A novel idea. *How would the level of tax be decided,
Doug? *And what penalties would there be for not paying tax owed to
the bank. *Would the bank have the right to imprison people?

Why do you find this stuff so difficult to understand
when it is so widely documented?

I'm not aware of any documentation covering the levying, collection
and enforcement of taxes by anyone other than governments, Doug..
Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right direction?
Shouldn't be hard, as it is "so widely documented" ...

A lot of it is covered by the co-
operative movement or by friendly societies, etc.

I'm not aware of any instances of compulsory taxes being levied,
collected and enforced by the co-operative movement or by friendly
societies. *Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point me in the right
direction?

It is as if you have
been indoctrinated about the status quo from birth and know nothing
different.

Not at all. *I just need to understand the mechanics of how your
proposed society would work, Doug.

So what other systems do you know about and why do you still know
nothing about anarchism?

There are so many variables that it is impossible to predict how it
would turn out.
There are groups of anarchists all over the world and have been for a
long time. As you seem to be so interested in the subject but lack the
necessary knowledge I suggest you make a start by reading this,
instead of expecting me to tutor you here in such a vast subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Yes, Doug, you already referred me to that. *As, indeed, you always
do. *That page does not, unfortunately, address any of the issues I
have raised. *So why don't you explain, in your own words, how
compulsory taxation would be levied, collected and enforced, in a
country run according to anarchist principles.

Which anarchist principles are you referring to? There are many
variants, as you should know by now, if you have bothered to read the
source I gave above.

I have read it, Doug. *There are many anarchist principles, but they
all have one thing in common - reduction or abolition of the state.
Given that, to the best of my knowledge, tax is always levied,
collected and enforced by states, I'm just curious as to how you
envisage this being done in the absence of a state.

Why do you keep on repeating yourself? I have already told you, by
banks or societies. Also a reduced government can still collect taxes.

As I have already suggested, a large central bank owned and run by the
people should be able to collect taxes. Banks are quite used to
collecting interest so why not taxes?

OK, I'll ask again, Doug. *Would this bank have the power to set tax
rates? *And to punish people for non-payment? *Do you envisage that
the bank would have the power to send people to prison if they refuse
to pay tax? *Also, given the very poor performance of banks of late,
and the hatred they've engendered, particularly amongst anarchists,
I'm a little surprised to hear you proposing to give them such a
central role. *How would the bankers be controlled, Doug?

How do you think?

I don't know, Doug. That's why I'm asking you.

The justice system is independent of government
anyway.

The justice system is part of the state, Doug. I thought anarchists
wanted to get rid of the state?

Anyway, you *still* haven't answered my questions. If I didn't know
better, I'd think you don't have the first clue about how this would
work, because you are not really an anarchist. That can't be right
though, can it?

Incidentally, how would the "large central bank owned and run by the
people" differ from the current Bank of England? *Please be specific.

Please try and answer the questions, and don't just refer me back to
the Wikipedia page - I've read it and it doesn't answer the questions.

Why don't you answer your questions yourself by researching sources
like everybody else?

Here is just one example...

"A stateless society is a society that is not governed by a state. In
stateless societies, there is little concentration of authority; most
positions of authority that do exist are very limited in power and are
generally not permanently held positions; and social bodies that
resolve disputes through predefined rules tend to be small.[1]
Stateless societies are highly variable in economic organization, and
cultural practices.[2]

For most of human history people have lived in stateless societies.
However, few stateless societies exist today, since most of them have
been coerced into integrating with the state-based societies around
them.[3]"

Splendid stuff. But that only adds to the problem. Tax requires a
state to levy, collect and enforce it. Stateless societies don't have
tax. But you have said you want corporations and rich people to be
taxed (indeed, you'd starve to death without tax and redistribution by
the state). Yet you can't even begin to explain how that would happen
without the state. I wonder why?

As things stand at present taxes
are also collected locally by local governments and they could be
replaced by some form of friendly societies for tax collection.

Would the friendly societies have the power to set tax rates? *And to
punish people for non-payment? *Do you envisage that the friendly
societies would have the power to send people to prison?

Please try and answer the questions, and don't just refer me back to
the Wikipedia page - I've read it and it doesn't answer the questions.

Why don't you answer your questions yourself by researching sources
like everybody else?

Why don't you just answer the questions, Doug?

Why don't you try to research this subject instead of keep on asking
me for information which you appear to lack?

You are such an expert, Doug, that asking you seems the most obvious
solution. *Also, you have obviously given the whole subject much
consideration, so I don't doubt you've thought long and hard about
such obvious practical matters and have a ready solution to hand.

It is not an obvious solution since I am not an expert and a newsgroup
such as this is not suitable for arguing in depth and is about a
different subject altogether, namely ramming. Do try to get your
priorities right.

I said it's an obvious problem, not an obvious solution. I would have
thought that a self-declared anarchist would have thought about such
basic issues. But then you are not really an anarchist, are you Doug?

"BrianW" wrote in message
...

Why don't you just answer the questions, Doug?

---

IME Doug does not answer questions that require some serious reflection that
may challenge his views.
The usual strategy is to either ask a question in return and demanding that
you answer his question first or shift the goalposts by redefining terms.

I notice that Doug's definition of an anarchy encompasses a government.
In any defintion of the word anarchy I have previously encountered, a
government is not required and decentralised, local control directly by the
people is king.

IMO an immediate direct democracy is one of the most terrifying forms of
government I can think of.

Andy

"AndyW" gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

I notice that Doug's definition of an anarchy encompasses a government.

And let's not forget that that's a government which impose taxes that
individuals and businesses appear to pay because they wish to.