Aluminium or Chromoly frame?

On 11/13/2016 11:17 AM, jbeattie wrote:
I was always amazed by TIG welders. I'd drop the hood and say, "where the f*** am I . . . someone turn on the lights."


I'm still amazed by really good welders, even though I've done a fair
amount of welding.

But regarding "... someone turn on the lights," you can now buy
inexpensive welding masks or helmets that are transparent, but
instantaneously darken when the arc turns on. They make things _much_
easier, IME.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 12:42:37 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/13/2016 11:17 AM, jbeattie wrote:
I was always amazed by TIG welders. I'd drop the hood and say, "where the f*** am I . . . someone turn on the lights."


I'm still amazed by really good welders, even though I've done a fair
amount of welding.

But regarding "... someone turn on the lights," you can now buy
inexpensive welding masks or helmets that are transparent, but
instantaneously darken when the arc turns on. They make things _much_
easier, IME.

Or you can be more coordinated striking the torch and lowering your visor or helmet. I confess to not being a good TIG welder . I mostly just playing with the TIG torches at the adult ed shop and welded scraps together. I was more serious about doing brazing repairs or bosses on my steel frames.

One day, I'll take the frame building class at UBI.http://www.bikeschool.com/classes/fr...ilding-classes Make myself a super cool Ti gravel bike -- with lumpy welds.


-- Jay Beattie.

On 11/13/2016 5:32 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 12:42:37 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/13/2016 11:17 AM, jbeattie wrote:
I was always amazed by TIG welders. I'd drop the hood and say, "where the f*** am I . . . someone turn on the lights."


I'm still amazed by really good welders, even though I've done a fair
amount of welding.

But regarding "... someone turn on the lights," you can now buy
inexpensive welding masks or helmets that are transparent, but
instantaneously darken when the arc turns on. They make things _much_
easier, IME.

Or you can be more coordinated striking the torch and lowering your visor or helmet. I confess to not being a good TIG welder . I mostly just playing with the TIG torches at the adult ed shop and welded scraps together. I was more serious about doing brazing repairs or bosses on my steel frames.

One day, I'll take the frame building class at UBI.http://www.bikeschool.com/classes/fr...ilding-classes Make myself a super cool Ti gravel bike -- with lumpy welds.


-- Jay Beattie.


Gaswelding exhaust pipes/ mufflers is a great way to
understand thin (rusted) steel. A light touch is necessary
for that sort of work. Bonus points for salt water slush
dripping on your head.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:25:19 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 2:19:08 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 12:12:02 AM UTC-6, Ken Pisichko wrote:
The bottom line is: Steel is reliable, heavy and easily reparable.

steel frames - easily reparable with a welder/brazing outfit.

No. Quality steel frames are made with very thin hardened steel tubes. Being thin, they cannot just be welded by anyone. Brazing does not really exist anymore since so few people use lugs or fillet brazing to make frames. Its probably true you can easily fix a Chinese steel frame anywhere by anybody. But not quality steel frames. I have a Don Walker fillet brazed track frame with broken down and top tubes. Walker said he would fix it for about $1000+. Another frame maker said he would not even try due to the thinness of the tubes. The distortion from heating the tubes would require reaming and straightening the tubes afterwards. He could not guarantee the frame would be safe afterwards.

Do you know what fillet brazing is? Arc welding is possible with
very skilled welders that have practiced enough but many common frame
builders can fillet braze and make as strong a frame without the
overheating that welding causes which destroys the tempering.

Fillet brazing was called "bronze Welding" 50 years ago, in England,
when it was given much of the credit for Norton's new racing
motorcycle frame called "the featherbed".

Arc Welding, AKA "stick welding" is normally impossible on ultra thin
metals as the heat control is normally not sensitive enough to run a
bead of any length.

Tungsten-Inert Gas, AKA TIG welding, is usually controllable enough to
allow welding of extremely thin metal, even to the extent that the arc
can be initially drawn on a separate and then moved to the metal to be
welded after the initial arc is established. I've seen people run a
bead around an empty aluminum coca-cola can, which I have read is
about 0.004" thick.

On 11/13/2016 6:32 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 12:42:37 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/13/2016 11:17 AM, jbeattie wrote:
I was always amazed by TIG welders. I'd drop the hood and say, "where the f*** am I . . . someone turn on the lights."


I'm still amazed by really good welders, even though I've done a fair
amount of welding.

But regarding "... someone turn on the lights," you can now buy
inexpensive welding masks or helmets that are transparent, but
instantaneously darken when the arc turns on. They make things _much_
easier, IME.

Or you can be more coordinated striking the torch and lowering your visor or helmet. I confess to not being a good TIG welder . I mostly just playing with the TIG torches at the adult ed shop and welded scraps together. I was more serious about doing brazing repairs or bosses on my steel frames.

One day, I'll take the frame building class at UBI.http://www.bikeschool.com/classes/fr...ilding-classes Make myself a super cool Ti gravel bike -- with lumpy welds.

Re lumpy welds: When I was first learning (and building the utility
trailer I still use occasionally) I was told "Your welds look like dog
****." Teachers weren't required to be diplomatic.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:24:30 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/13/2016 5:32 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 12:42:37 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/13/2016 11:17 AM, jbeattie wrote:
I was always amazed by TIG welders. I'd drop the hood and say, "where the f*** am I . . . someone turn on the lights."


I'm still amazed by really good welders, even though I've done a fair
amount of welding.

But regarding "... someone turn on the lights," you can now buy
inexpensive welding masks or helmets that are transparent, but
instantaneously darken when the arc turns on. They make things _much_
easier, IME.

Or you can be more coordinated striking the torch and lowering your visor or helmet. I confess to not being a good TIG welder . I mostly just playing with the TIG torches at the adult ed shop and welded scraps together. I was more serious about doing brazing repairs or bosses on my steel frames.

One day, I'll take the frame building class at UBI.http://www.bikeschool.com/classes/fr...ilding-classes Make myself a super cool Ti gravel bike -- with lumpy welds.


-- Jay Beattie.


Gaswelding exhaust pipes/ mufflers is a great way to
understand thin (rusted) steel. A light touch is necessary
for that sort of work. Bonus points for salt water slush
dripping on your head.

You are also welding material that has absorbed a lot of carbon and
are probably producing some pretty brittle beads :-)

On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 12:42:37 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/13/2016 11:17 AM, jbeattie wrote:
I was always amazed by TIG welders. I'd drop the hood and say, "where the f*** am I . . . someone turn on the lights."


I'm still amazed by really good welders, even though I've done a fair
amount of welding.

But regarding "... someone turn on the lights," you can now buy
inexpensive welding masks or helmets that are transparent, but
instantaneously darken when the arc turns on. They make things _much_
easier, IME.

They are not without their risks, tho. I got en eyeful last month while arc welding when the LCD mask failed to darken.

On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 2:29:23 PM UTC-5, Doug Landau wrote:
On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 12:42:37 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/13/2016 11:17 AM, jbeattie wrote:
I was always amazed by TIG welders. I'd drop the hood and say, "where the f*** am I . . . someone turn on the lights."


I'm still amazed by really good welders, even though I've done a fair
amount of welding.

But regarding "... someone turn on the lights," you can now buy
inexpensive welding masks or helmets that are transparent, but
instantaneously darken when the arc turns on. They make things _much_
easier, IME.

They are not without their risks, tho. I got en eyeful last month while arc welding when the LCD mask failed to darken.

I've worried about that, but so far mine has never failed to darken properly.
Were you able to identify the problem?

- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 3:46:32 AM UTC-8, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 14:19:05 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 12:12:02 AM UTC-6, Ken Pisichko wrote:
The bottom line is: Steel is reliable, heavy and easily reparable.

steel frames - easily reparable with a welder/brazing outfit.

No. Quality steel frames are made with very thin hardened steel tubes.
Being thin, they cannot just be welded by anyone. Brazing does not
really exist anymore since so few people use lugs or fillet brazing to
make frames. Its probably true you can easily fix a Chinese steel
frame anywhere by anybody. But not quality steel frames. I have a
Don Walker fillet brazed track frame with broken down and top tubes.
Walker said he would fix it for about $1000+. Another frame maker
said he would not even try due to the thinness of the tubes. The
distortion from heating the tubes would require reaming and
straightening the tubes afterwards. He could not guarantee the frame
would be safe afterwards.

That is not really correct. There are plenty of welders out there that
can weld thin wall bike tubes. Have a look at the professional
welder's sites. You won't find this type of guy down at the corner gas
station and he won't be cheap either but there are plenty of them out
there. There is even a video some where on the net of a professional
welder welding a bike frame.

As for super thin tubes. Columbus NL tubes have 0.8mm butts. that is
0.0315". I know plenty of aircraft welders who spend most days welding
0.032" stainless.

John. welders that can be careful enough to weld 32 thou tubing generally don't build bicycle frames. That is an art that is worth a who lot more than you'd make pinching bicycles together.

On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 12:22:27 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 2:29:23 PM UTC-5, Doug Landau wrote:
On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 12:42:37 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/13/2016 11:17 AM, jbeattie wrote:
I was always amazed by TIG welders. I'd drop the hood and say, "where the f*** am I . . . someone turn on the lights."


I'm still amazed by really good welders, even though I've done a fair
amount of welding.

But regarding "... someone turn on the lights," you can now buy
inexpensive welding masks or helmets that are transparent, but
instantaneously darken when the arc turns on. They make things _much_
easier, IME.

They are not without their risks, tho. I got en eyeful last month while arc welding when the LCD mask failed to darken.

I've worried about that, but so far mine has never failed to darken properly.
Were you able to identify the problem?

- Frank Krygowski

No but I didn't try. I threw it out. It was a gift I gave to Dad around the time those things came out, or at least I -think- they were new at the time; that would have been around early 1990's IIRC. It was probably only used a dozen times.