#21
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Waxing Chains?
On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 08:34:25 -0800, sms
wrote: On 11/20/2016 4:51 PM, John B Slocomb wrote: Does anyone have any statistics regarding the length of time paraffin wax lasts as a chain lubricant? Either in miles/kilometers ridden, days/months between lube jobs, or other statistics? When I used to use wax I used to re-wax probably every two weeks or so but wonder whether a more relaxed schedule might be sufficient? You can't go by time _or_ mileage, there are other factors as well. What's the weather? Are you mixing oil in with the wax so there is a lubricant still present once the wax is displaced? What the Experts say About Chain Waxing: "When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles. I'm not sure I believe that. I used wax, applied at high temperatures and allowed to harden with both down tube friction shifters and "Brifters" and never had a single instance of shifting problems. "Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author of The Bicycle Wheel "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III. "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or grease." Sheldon Brown "Paraffin (canning wax), although clean, works poorly because it is not mobile and cannot replenish the bearing surfaces once it has been displaced. This becomes apparent with any water that gets on the chain. It immediately squeaks. [I have found that motor oil works poorly: it washes out of the chain due to its detergent properties -- John Allen.]" Of course Jon Allen is clueless, and it hurts to see him wrecking Sheldon's web site. You don't use detergent oil on a chain, if you are going to use motor oil then you use non-detergent oil, i.e. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052KYAMC And even more recently a bloke who actually measures the effectiveness of paraffin wax says it is the most effective lubricant. Most of the above just talked a good race. Can you show me a definitive test of the suitability of paraffin as a lubricant by any of the above? Note John Allen, above on the detergent qualities of motor oil. The word, when applied to motor oil means the ability to dissolve and hold in suspension foreign matter, i.e., dirt and metal particles. It doesn't include water. Ask anyone that has gotten water in an engine's oil. It doesn't form a solution and does separates into the two components, water and oil, very rapidly. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
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#22
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Waxing Chains?
On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:16:01 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 11/21/2016 11:34 AM, sms wrote: On 11/20/2016 4:51 PM, John B Slocomb wrote: Does anyone have any statistics regarding the length of time paraffin wax lasts as a chain lubricant? Either in miles/kilometers ridden, days/months between lube jobs, or other statistics? When I used to use wax I used to re-wax probably every two weeks or so but wonder whether a more relaxed schedule might be sufficient? You can't go by time _or_ mileage, there are other factors as well. What's the weather? Are you mixing oil in with the wax so there is a lubricant still present once the wax is displaced? It's as "logical" to say it's impossible for a person to tell which jacket to wear. It could be cold; it could be hot; the temperature might rise or fall; it may be breezy; it may be sunny; it may be cloudy. Nothing can be determined! All is mystery! Ommmmmmmmm.... What the Experts say About Chain Waxing: "When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles. "Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author of The Bicycle Wheel "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III. "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or grease." Sheldon Brown "Paraffin (canning wax), although clean, works poorly because it is not mobile and cannot replenish the bearing surfaces once it has been displaced. This becomes apparent with any water that gets on the chain. It immediately squeaks. [I have found that motor oil works poorly: it washes out of the chain due to its detergent properties -- John Allen.]" Of course Jon Allen is clueless, and it hurts to see him wrecking Sheldon's web site. You don't use detergent oil on a chain, if you are going to use motor oil then you use non-detergent oil, i.e. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052KYAMC You could go with opinions, or you could go with data and the experience of those who have actually used a wax-oil mix. http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/new...formula-36424/ http://www.velonews.com/2013/03/bike...ith-wax_279148 https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8052/...b1044b34_c.jpg About John Allen: He's a very smart guy. But like most smart guys, his opinions are sometimes incomplete, and sometimes just wrong. In this case, his statement is incomplete. I'll agree (based on experience) that pure paraffin wax squeaks quite soon after a rain. But in my experience, the addition of a small amount of oil (perhaps gear oil) to the wax removes that detriment completely, while still leaving the considerable benefits of a wax lube. To prepare the mix, melt the wax, pour in maybe 5% oil and stir. As usual, I'm not trying to tell anybody what they should use on their chains. I'm just trying to counter Steven M. Scharf's usual misinformation. Frank, Frank! Such a radical you have turned into. Demanding facts instead of supposed notions and uninformed gossip. It is obvious that you have no chance in California politics whatsoever with all this talk of "facts" and "data". |
#23
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Waxing Chains?
On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:30:44 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 11/21/2016 3:58 PM, James wrote: On 22/11/16 04:46, Doug Landau wrote: On Sunday, November 20, 2016 at 5:49:13 PM UTC-8, James wrote: At the moment I guess I ride 2-3000km between re-waxing. After a 1000km or so the chain might start to sound a little dry. I find a very sparing squirt of WD40 and wipe off the excess keeps the chain running silently for another 1000km. My guess is that the WD40 softens the remaining wax and turns it into grease and oil for a while. I rode 100km yesterday after a little squirt of WD40. The chain ran silent and smooth, but it's been a few months between re-waxing and chain swapping, so I'll do that very soon. Is this not going to accelerate wear by carrying grit down into the chain? Maybe, maybe not. Depends how clean or dirty the rollers of the chain are I guess. Mine stay very clean. Somewhat similarly, when I re-wax (with the chain on the bike, using torch heat) I don't do much to clean the chain first; maybe just wipe it down with paper towels, but often not even that. I'm sure the new wax, when it melts, carries some microscopic grit into the chain's crevices. I'm not worried about that slight deviation from perfection. My bike, chain, chainrings and cogs still stay much cleaner than with any other lube, my chain life seems longer (it's plenty long enough to satisfy me), and the application process is faster than any "bathe & oil" routine. I just discovered the several year old chunk of solidified wax from the cooker that I had used some years ago to wax chains. I remelted the wax and one thing I noted was that any discolored matter - I assumed dirt separated almost instantly from the wax. Five it a stir and it turned almost black, wait just a moment and you could literally see the black "gunk" settling to the bottom of the pan. I wonder whether wax is more, or less, likely to carry dirt into a chain? |
#24
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Waxing Chains?
On 11/21/2016 8:50 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:16:01 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/21/2016 11:34 AM, sms wrote: On 11/20/2016 4:51 PM, John B Slocomb wrote: Does anyone have any statistics regarding the length of time paraffin wax lasts as a chain lubricant? Either in miles/kilometers ridden, days/months between lube jobs, or other statistics? When I used to use wax I used to re-wax probably every two weeks or so but wonder whether a more relaxed schedule might be sufficient? You can't go by time _or_ mileage, there are other factors as well. What's the weather? Are you mixing oil in with the wax so there is a lubricant still present once the wax is displaced? It's as "logical" to say it's impossible for a person to tell which jacket to wear. It could be cold; it could be hot; the temperature might rise or fall; it may be breezy; it may be sunny; it may be cloudy. Nothing can be determined! All is mystery! Ommmmmmmmm.... What the Experts say About Chain Waxing: "When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles. "Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author of The Bicycle Wheel "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III. "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or grease." Sheldon Brown "Paraffin (canning wax), although clean, works poorly because it is not mobile and cannot replenish the bearing surfaces once it has been displaced. This becomes apparent with any water that gets on the chain. It immediately squeaks. [I have found that motor oil works poorly: it washes out of the chain due to its detergent properties -- John Allen.]" Of course Jon Allen is clueless, and it hurts to see him wrecking Sheldon's web site. You don't use detergent oil on a chain, if you are going to use motor oil then you use non-detergent oil, i.e. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052KYAMC You could go with opinions, or you could go with data and the experience of those who have actually used a wax-oil mix. http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/new...formula-36424/ http://www.velonews.com/2013/03/bike...ith-wax_279148 https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8052/...b1044b34_c.jpg About John Allen: He's a very smart guy. But like most smart guys, his opinions are sometimes incomplete, and sometimes just wrong. In this case, his statement is incomplete. I'll agree (based on experience) that pure paraffin wax squeaks quite soon after a rain. But in my experience, the addition of a small amount of oil (perhaps gear oil) to the wax removes that detriment completely, while still leaving the considerable benefits of a wax lube. To prepare the mix, melt the wax, pour in maybe 5% oil and stir. As usual, I'm not trying to tell anybody what they should use on their chains. I'm just trying to counter Steven M. Scharf's usual misinformation. Frank, Frank! Such a radical you have turned into. Demanding facts instead of supposed notions and uninformed gossip. It is obvious that you have no chance in California politics whatsoever with all this talk of "facts" and "data". I'll admit, Scharf is ahead of me on that matter. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#25
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Waxing Chains?
On 22/11/16 12:50, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:51:52 +1100, James wrote: On 21/11/16 23:21, John B Slocomb wrote: Re "hot waxing". I have a tube of commercial "wax" chain lube that seems to be, based on warnings of "highly inflammable" some sort of wax-highly volatile solvent mix. I have a faint recollection of someone mixing paraffin with gasoline at elevated temperatures for some purpose, not that I want to attempt that feat :-) but I wonder if paraffin is soluble in some sort of volatile liquid. It might be a means of formulating an emergency (carry some with you) chain lube. It does dissolve in very light hydrocarbon fractions. At ambient temperatures? I've been trying to recollect the details of the story I remembered about the paraffin and gasoline, but I seem to remember that cooking it over a fire was a part of the recipe... which didn't sound like something I wanted to try out in the driveway :-) I can't remember. I did it once but the result went sticky as the solvent dried. I didn't persist. -- JS |
#26
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Waxing Chains?
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#27
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Waxing Chains?
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Mix with silicone as CRC or research https://www.google.com/search?gl=us&...k1.mx1dSBgicnY https://www.google.com/#q=bicycle+chain+wax+lubricant |
#28
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Waxing Chains?
On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 1:34:27 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 22/11/16 12:50, John B Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:51:52 +1100, James wrote: On 21/11/16 23:21, John B Slocomb wrote: Re "hot waxing". I have a tube of commercial "wax" chain lube that seems to be, based on warnings of "highly inflammable" some sort of wax-highly volatile solvent mix. I have a faint recollection of someone mixing paraffin with gasoline at elevated temperatures for some purpose, not that I want to attempt that feat :-) but I wonder if paraffin is soluble in some sort of volatile liquid. It might be a means of formulating an emergency (carry some with you) chain lube. It does dissolve in very light hydrocarbon fractions. At ambient temperatures? I've been trying to recollect the details of the story I remembered about the paraffin and gasoline, but I seem to remember that cooking it over a fire was a part of the recipe... which didn't sound like something I wanted to try out in the driveway :-) I can't remember. I did it once but the result went sticky as the solvent dried. I didn't persist. -- JS overall, the treatment renders wax sticky to slightly more fluid so what you tried was successful in the right direction. |
#29
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Waxing Chains?
On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 5:50:49 PM UTC-8, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 08:34:25 -0800, sms wrote: On 11/20/2016 4:51 PM, John B Slocomb wrote: Does anyone have any statistics regarding the length of time paraffin wax lasts as a chain lubricant? Either in miles/kilometers ridden, days/months between lube jobs, or other statistics? When I used to use wax I used to re-wax probably every two weeks or so but wonder whether a more relaxed schedule might be sufficient? You can't go by time _or_ mileage, there are other factors as well. What's the weather? Are you mixing oil in with the wax so there is a lubricant still present once the wax is displaced? What the Experts say About Chain Waxing: "When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles. I'm not sure I believe that. I used wax, applied at high temperatures and allowed to harden with both down tube friction shifters and "Brifters" and never had a single instance of shifting problems. "Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author of The Bicycle Wheel "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III. "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or grease." Sheldon Brown "Paraffin (canning wax), although clean, works poorly because it is not mobile and cannot replenish the bearing surfaces once it has been displaced. This becomes apparent with any water that gets on the chain. It immediately squeaks. [I have found that motor oil works poorly: it washes out of the chain due to its detergent properties -- John Allen.]" Of course Jon Allen is clueless, and it hurts to see him wrecking Sheldon's web site. You don't use detergent oil on a chain, if you are going to use motor oil then you use non-detergent oil, i.e. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052KYAMC And even more recently a bloke who actually measures the effectiveness of paraffin wax says it is the most effective lubricant. Most of the above just talked a good race. Can you show me a definitive test of the suitability of paraffin as a lubricant by any of the above? Note John Allen, above on the detergent qualities of motor oil. The word, when applied to motor oil means the ability to dissolve and hold in suspension foreign matter, i.e., dirt and metal particles. It doesn't include water. Ask anyone that has gotten water in an engine's oil. It doesn't form a solution and does separates into the two components, water and oil, very rapidly. Thought I read here that oil absorbs moisture, and steel surfaces with a film of oil will rust |
#30
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Waxing Chains?
Thought I read here that oil absorbs moisture, and steel surfaces with a film of oil will rust
specific gravity see google images chart specific gravity linseed oil n silicone oil aka Aerospace 303 n family are heavier than water. the bad news is oil from the refinery may have water init...oil intended for warm climates need not be 100% dry. Grease is highly suspect. |
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