Critical

Here's an item from NY:

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.

Jobst Brandt

On Dec 17, 7:53*pm, wrote:
Here's an item from NY:

*http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.

Jobst Brandt

Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about
Critical Mass? IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than good.

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:03:13 -0800 (PST), Ron Wallenfang
wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:53*pm, wrote:
Here's an item from NY:

*http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.

Jobst Brandt

Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about
Critical Mass? IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than good.

Your comments remind me of stuff we hear sometimes when cyclists are
hit by drivers: "Well, it's too bad that person got hit. But so many
cyclists run red lights. I'm not blaming that specific cyclist, but
really cyclists ought to behave better..."

In article ,
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:03:13 -0800 (PST), Ron Wallenfang
wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:53*pm, wrote:
Here's an item from NY:

*http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.

Jobst Brandt

Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about
Critical Mass? IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than
good.

Your comments remind me of stuff we hear sometimes when cyclists are
hit by drivers: "Well, it's too bad that person got hit. But so many
cyclists run red lights. I'm not blaming that specific cyclist, but
really cyclists ought to behave better..."

Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience. Generally
speaking, however, it's most effective when the purpose of the civil
disobedience is clearly promulgated so that onlookers get the point.
For many bystanders, Critical Mass is just a form of hooliganism and
does not communicate the desired message. As a result of this, Critical
Mass is basically an incompetent form of civil disobedience and probably
is not providing a net benefit for cyclists.

On Dec 17, 7:17*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article ,
*John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:





On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:03:13 -0800 (PST), Ron Wallenfang
wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:53*pm, wrote:
Here's an item from NY:

*http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.

Jobst Brandt

Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about
Critical Mass? *IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than
good.

Your comments remind me of stuff we hear sometimes when cyclists are
hit by drivers: "Well, it's too bad that person got hit. But so many
cyclists run red lights. I'm not blaming that specific cyclist, but
really cyclists ought to behave better..."

Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience. *Generally
speaking, however, it's most effective when the purpose of the civil
disobedience is clearly promulgated so that onlookers get the point. *
For many bystanders, Critical Mass is just a form of hooliganism and
does not communicate the desired message. *As a result of this, Critical
Mass is basically an incompetent form of civil disobedience and probably
is not providing a net benefit for cyclists.- Hide quoted text -

Even hooligans have rights, regrettably. -- Anton Scalia.

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:17:58 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience.

Not always true. Lots or most of Critical Mass participants in my
city break no laws at all, though they disobey police orders to not
ride on the street. The courts have routinely said the police don't
have the power to give such order and have tossed tickets and arrests
based on them.

On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 04:11:42 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:17:58 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience.

Not always true. Lots or most of Critical Mass participants in my
city break no laws at all, though they disobey police orders to not
ride on the street. The courts have routinely said the police don't
have the power to give such order and have tossed tickets and arrests
based on them.

One other thing -- that's some Manhattan Critical Masses. Supposedly
in Brooklyn Critical Mass typically doesn't have any police or
government action against it at all - it's just a bunch of people
riding bikes in the streets legally. Doesn't get as much news
coverage...

In article ,
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:17:58 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience.

Not always true. Lots or most of Critical Mass participants in my
city break no laws at all, though they disobey police orders to not
ride on the street. The courts have routinely said the police don't
have the power to give such order and have tossed tickets and arrests
based on them.

Critical mass extravaganzas are not bicyclists going about their
business. They are public demonstrations: parades; and they do
not apply for permits to stage their demonstrations. This makes
it civil disobedience.

--
Michael Press

Tim McNamara wrote:

Here's an item from NY:

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.

Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say
about Critical Mass? IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm
than good.

Your comments remind me of stuff we hear sometimes when cyclists
are hit by drivers: "Well, it's too bad that person got hit. But so
many cyclists run red lights. I'm not blaming that specific
cyclist, but really cyclists ought to behave better..."

Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience. Generally
speaking, however, it's most effective when the purpose of the civil
disobedience is clearly promulgated so that onlookers get the point.
For many bystanders, Critical Mass is just a form of hooliganism and
does not communicate the desired message. As a result of this,
Critical Mass is basically an incompetent form of civil disobedience
and probably is not providing a net benefit for cyclists.

Well, you may not have witnessed it but if you look carefully you'll
see that it is a ride with all sorts of bicyclists, men and women,
racers, commuters, shopping types and others in great quantity, making
the point that everyman is a bicyclist and part of the urban scene.
It has done that in SF and achieved progress in bicycle lanes and
paths that get around auto usurped zones, as well as police awareness.
The repercussions are felt in the entire SF Bay Area. Various cities
have signs saying that this is a bicycle friendly community.

Throw shoes!

Jobst Brandt

On Dec 18, 12:13*pm, wrote:
*Tim McNamara wrote:
Here's an item from NY:

*http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.
Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say
about Critical Mass? *IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm
than good.
Your comments remind me of stuff we hear sometimes when cyclists
are hit by drivers: "Well, it's too bad that person got hit. But so
many cyclists run red lights. I'm not blaming that specific
cyclist, but really cyclists ought to behave better..."
Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience. *Generally
speaking, however, it's most effective when the purpose of the civil
disobedience is clearly promulgated so that onlookers get the point.
For many bystanders, Critical Mass is just a form of hooliganism and
does not communicate the desired message. *As a result of this,
Critical Mass is basically an incompetent form of civil disobedience
and probably is not providing a net benefit for cyclists.

Well, you may not have witnessed it but if you look carefully you'll
see that it is a ride with all sorts of bicyclists, men and women,
racers, commuters, shopping types and others in great quantity, making
the point that everyman is a bicyclist and part of the urban scene.
It has done that in SF and achieved progress in bicycle lanes and
paths that get around auto usurped zones, as well as police awareness.
The repercussions are felt in the entire SF Bay Area. *Various cities
have signs saying that this is a bicycle friendly community.

Throw shoes!

Sabotage! -- Jay Beattie.