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Thoughts on braking



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 7th 03, 05:02 AM
Bernie
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Default Thoughts on braking



Luigi de Guzman wrote:

So i've got to get to the library and return books. Somewhere in the
middle of the City, in crowded stop-and-go traffic, my front brake
cable snaps. apply my rear coaster brake (yuk). Limp to the library,
return books, get bike to shop where a shopdude fits me up with new
cable for GBP 1.80. great.

I observe from my brief trip without a front brake that I am more or
less utterly dependent on it. it's very hard for me to imagine riding
without one. And yet when I got back to my room, I had an interesting
AIM conversation with a friend fo mine from home:

"you mean you use your *front* brake?" he said, somewhat incredulous.
"I never use my front brake."

I explain all the usual things--quote sheldon brown and my own
experience, tell him to watch the beloki crash film again. but he
persists. "Besides, all of my riding has been trail-riding, and I
hardly ever use my front brake there."

A statement I found very hard to believe.

Then, out of curiosity, I went to see what our fossil-fueled brothers
on motorbikes have to say about braking. They say to brake with both
at the same time:

"Use both brakes whenever slowing or stopping

To stop, the hands and feet work together in a coordinated and smooth
fashion. Squeeze the clutch and the front brake lever while pressing
on the rear brake pedal and downshifting to first gear. The front
brake provides around 70% of the stopping power for your motorcycle.

Both brakes should be applied at the same time when stopping. Even
though the full braking potential of each wheel may not be required
for normal, planned stops, it is important to develop the habit of
using both brakes so that your reflexes will be ready to respond
quickly and properly when an emergency situation occurs."

they even have a diagram:

http://www.msf-usa.org/CourseReview/assets/RiderHandbook_27_1.gif

In light of all of this I make a few observations & questions

1) Those big Flying Pigeons or Dutch roadsters, with only coaster
brakes, were probably never intended to go very fast at all. My
braking distance with only a rear coaster was scary, and my ability to
brake depended largely on where my feet were in the pedal stroke.
unnerving. [and I'm not very fast--the messengers and a lot of
commuters, indeed, at at least one little girl can all beat me,
speedwise]

2) Is there some sort of maximum speed, or some other purely physical
limit to front-brake only braking? Why do the motorcycle guys
recommend two-brake braking? [this will probably require me to do
some tests when I go home, with the assistance of my science-minded
younger brother]

3) If trail riders don't use their front brakes much--as my friend,
who was a sometime MTBer, seems to allege--why do I see so many
front-wheel disk brakes?

-Luigi


Hey Luigi
As a person who was a kid on a CCM coaster brake bike in the mid 50's to
early 60's, I can say those brakes (I think we called them Bendix brakes)
worked very well. They withstood a lot of abuse, and kid cyclists learned
to use them very well. I remember lots of sliding stops, often just for
show, sometimes to save one's life.
My brakes never failed and I don't remember ever hearing about bad coaster
brakes. In that day we were all aware that "racing" bikes with lever
brakes were death traps because if you applied the front brakes too hard
you would fly over the bars. (!!!)

Certainly no one expected to apply his coaster brakes hard and still be in
a stable and upright position, that was just not possible. I still think
they are practical and durable brakes for those who want a simple shopper
type bicycle.
Best regards, Bernie

Ads
  #2  
Old August 7th 03, 01:47 PM
Robin Hubert
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Thoughts on braking

"Bernie" wrote in message
...


Luigi de Guzman wrote:

So i've got to get to the library and return books. Somewhere in the
middle of the City, in crowded stop-and-go traffic, my front brake
cable snaps. apply my rear coaster brake (yuk). Limp to the library,
return books, get bike to shop where a shopdude fits me up with new
cable for GBP 1.80. great.

I observe from my brief trip without a front brake that I am more or
less utterly dependent on it. it's very hard for me to imagine riding
without one. And yet when I got back to my room, I had an interesting
AIM conversation with a friend fo mine from home:

"you mean you use your *front* brake?" he said, somewhat incredulous.
"I never use my front brake."

I explain all the usual things--quote sheldon brown and my own
experience, tell him to watch the beloki crash film again. but he
persists. "Besides, all of my riding has been trail-riding, and I
hardly ever use my front brake there."

A statement I found very hard to believe.

Then, out of curiosity, I went to see what our fossil-fueled brothers
on motorbikes have to say about braking. They say to brake with both
at the same time:

"Use both brakes whenever slowing or stopping

To stop, the hands and feet work together in a coordinated and smooth
fashion. Squeeze the clutch and the front brake lever while pressing
on the rear brake pedal and downshifting to first gear. The front
brake provides around 70% of the stopping power for your motorcycle.

Both brakes should be applied at the same time when stopping. Even
though the full braking potential of each wheel may not be required
for normal, planned stops, it is important to develop the habit of
using both brakes so that your reflexes will be ready to respond
quickly and properly when an emergency situation occurs."

they even have a diagram:

http://www.msf-usa.org/CourseReview/assets/RiderHandbook_27_1.gif

In light of all of this I make a few observations & questions

1) Those big Flying Pigeons or Dutch roadsters, with only coaster
brakes, were probably never intended to go very fast at all. My
braking distance with only a rear coaster was scary, and my ability to
brake depended largely on where my feet were in the pedal stroke.
unnerving. [and I'm not very fast--the messengers and a lot of
commuters, indeed, at at least one little girl can all beat me,
speedwise]

2) Is there some sort of maximum speed, or some other purely physical
limit to front-brake only braking? Why do the motorcycle guys
recommend two-brake braking? [this will probably require me to do
some tests when I go home, with the assistance of my science-minded
younger brother]

3) If trail riders don't use their front brakes much--as my friend,
who was a sometime MTBer, seems to allege--why do I see so many
front-wheel disk brakes?

-Luigi


Hey Luigi
As a person who was a kid on a CCM coaster brake bike in the mid 50's to
early 60's, I can say those brakes (I think we called them Bendix brakes)
worked very well. They withstood a lot of abuse, and kid cyclists learned
to use them very well. I remember lots of sliding stops, often just for
show, sometimes to save one's life.


No way! What you kids didn't know is that slamming on the rear brake and
sliding did little to nothing in regards to saving your lives. You only
think it did.

My brakes never failed and I don't remember ever hearing about bad coaster
brakes. In that day we were all aware that "racing" bikes with lever
brakes were death traps because if you applied the front brakes too hard
you would fly over the bars. (!!!)


Uh, do you still believe this?


Certainly no one expected to apply his coaster brakes hard and still be in
a stable and upright position, that was just not possible.


?????

I still think
they are practical and durable brakes for those who want a simple shopper
type bicycle.


Sure, as long as you ride the thing at 10mph or less, and on the sidewalk,
and never have to stop quickly.




--
Robin Hubert



  #3  
Old August 7th 03, 02:56 PM
Bernie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Thoughts on braking



Robin Hubert wrote:

As a person who was a kid on a CCM coaster brake bike in the mid 50's to
early 60's, I can say those brakes (I think we called them Bendix brakes)
worked very well. They withstood a lot of abuse, and kid cyclists learned
to use them very well. I remember lots of sliding stops, often just for
show, sometimes to save one's life.


No way! What you kids didn't know is that slamming on the rear brake and
sliding did little to nothing in regards to saving your lives. You only
think it did.



I still think it did save me sometimes.



My brakes never failed and I don't remember ever hearing about bad coaster
brakes. In that day we were all aware that "racing" bikes with lever
brakes were death traps because if you applied the front brakes too hard
you would fly over the bars. (!!!)


Uh, do you still believe this?


Nope. It was a kid myth of the time, possibly still out there...

Certainly no one expected to apply his coaster brakes hard and still be in
a stable and upright position, that was just not possible.


?????


With only a rear brake that easily locks up the wheel, its hard to remain in a
stable position. You tend to slide and end up with one foot on the ground for
stability as you skid.


I still think
they are practical and durable brakes for those who want a simple shopper
type bicycle.


Sure, as long as you ride the thing at 10mph or less, and on the sidewalk,
and never have to stop quickly.


Lots of people ride at less than 10 mph all the time and still go places and do
things on their bikes. I know a few who don't like bikes with gearshifts and
handbrakes because they want simplicity. Look at the current popularity of
cruisers. More power to them!
Sidewalk riding? I'm fully in favour of street riding. Sidewalks are called
walks because....
Bernie

  #4  
Old August 7th 03, 04:39 PM
David Kerber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Thoughts on braking

In article . net,
says...
"Bernie" wrote in message
...


Luigi de Guzman wrote:

So i've got to get to the library and return books. Somewhere in the
middle of the City, in crowded stop-and-go traffic, my front brake
cable snaps. apply my rear coaster brake (yuk). Limp to the library,
return books, get bike to shop where a shopdude fits me up with new
cable for GBP 1.80. great.

I observe from my brief trip without a front brake that I am more or
less utterly dependent on it. it's very hard for me to imagine riding
without one. And yet when I got back to my room, I had an interesting
AIM conversation with a friend fo mine from home:

"you mean you use your *front* brake?" he said, somewhat incredulous.
"I never use my front brake."

I explain all the usual things--quote sheldon brown and my own
experience, tell him to watch the beloki crash film again. but he
persists. "Besides, all of my riding has been trail-riding, and I
hardly ever use my front brake there."

A statement I found very hard to believe.

Then, out of curiosity, I went to see what our fossil-fueled brothers
on motorbikes have to say about braking. They say to brake with both
at the same time:

"Use both brakes whenever slowing or stopping

To stop, the hands and feet work together in a coordinated and smooth
fashion. Squeeze the clutch and the front brake lever while pressing
on the rear brake pedal and downshifting to first gear. The front
brake provides around 70% of the stopping power for your motorcycle.

Both brakes should be applied at the same time when stopping. Even
though the full braking potential of each wheel may not be required
for normal, planned stops, it is important to develop the habit of
using both brakes so that your reflexes will be ready to respond
quickly and properly when an emergency situation occurs."

they even have a diagram:

http://www.msf-usa.org/CourseReview/assets/RiderHandbook_27_1.gif

In light of all of this I make a few observations & questions

1) Those big Flying Pigeons or Dutch roadsters, with only coaster
brakes, were probably never intended to go very fast at all. My
braking distance with only a rear coaster was scary, and my ability to
brake depended largely on where my feet were in the pedal stroke.
unnerving. [and I'm not very fast--the messengers and a lot of
commuters, indeed, at at least one little girl can all beat me,
speedwise]

2) Is there some sort of maximum speed, or some other purely physical
limit to front-brake only braking? Why do the motorcycle guys
recommend two-brake braking? [this will probably require me to do
some tests when I go home, with the assistance of my science-minded
younger brother]

3) If trail riders don't use their front brakes much--as my friend,
who was a sometime MTBer, seems to allege--why do I see so many
front-wheel disk brakes?

-Luigi


Hey Luigi
As a person who was a kid on a CCM coaster brake bike in the mid 50's to
early 60's, I can say those brakes (I think we called them Bendix brakes)
worked very well. They withstood a lot of abuse, and kid cyclists learned
to use them very well. I remember lots of sliding stops, often just for
show, sometimes to save one's life.


No way! What you kids didn't know is that slamming on the rear brake and
sliding did little to nothing in regards to saving your lives. You only
think it did.

My brakes never failed and I don't remember ever hearing about bad coaster
brakes. In that day we were all aware that "racing" bikes with lever
brakes were death traps because if you applied the front brakes too hard
you would fly over the bars. (!!!)


Uh, do you still believe this?


Why not? It's true? In this case, "too hard" means hard enough to lock
the front, therby causing an endo (on most bikes, anyway).


--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
  #6  
Old August 8th 03, 01:58 AM
David Kerber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Thoughts on braking

In article ,
says...
David Kerber wrote:
In article . net,
says...
"Bernie" wrote in message
...
My brakes never failed and I don't remember ever hearing about bad
coaster brakes. In that day we were all aware that "racing" bikes
with lever brakes were death traps because if you applied the front
brakes too hard you would fly over the bars. (!!!)

Uh, do you still believe this?


Why not? It's true? In this case, "too hard" means hard enough to
lock
the front, therby causing an endo (on most bikes, anyway).


As recently mentioned somewhere (possibly even earlier in this thread, but I
can't be bothered to find it):
Locking the front would simply cause it to slide out to one side, much like
locking the rear. An endo is when you brake hard enough to exceed the
pitch-over point, but not hard enough to lock up the front.


Do you really think you can slide the front on a typical road bike on
clean pavement? I've seen a few people (not many) lock the fronts while
going straight, and they've always gone over the front, apparently
because the tire had too much traction to slide.

Of course hitting the front brakes too hard on a corner is an entirely
different matter, because you have a sideways component to the
frictional force adding to the deceleration component.

....

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
  #7  
Old August 8th 03, 02:36 AM
Rick Onanian
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Posts: n/a
Default Thoughts on braking

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:08:29 +0000 (UTC), asqui
wrote:
As for the "death trap" comment: A front brake is a death trap because it
can be misused and cause an accident, but a rear brake is not a deathtrap
when the only way for you to stop with it from speed involves sliding all
over the place and possibly under the wheels of another vehicle?


Don't forget the whole reason you're panic-braking in the
first place: to avoid a hazard in front of you. The rear
brake [used alone for panic-stopping] is a deathtrap because
it won't accomplish anything.

When I was a little kid getting my fun out of skidding as
long as I possibly could, I found that with a little more
speed I layed a LOT longer track. I can't imagine what
would happen with the speeds I reach now and the tiny
contact patch on my 700x23c @ 125 psi tires...I bet I
could maintain my speed skidding down a moderate hill.

Dani

--
Rick Onanian
  #8  
Old August 8th 03, 02:39 AM
Rick Onanian
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Posts: n/a
Default Thoughts on braking

On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:58:27 -0400, David Kerber
wrote:
Do you really think you can slide the front on a typical road bike on
clean pavement? I've seen a few people (not many) lock the fronts while
going straight, and they've always gone over the front, apparently
because the tire had too much traction to slide.


I wish I could come up with some safe conditions for
testing this. It actually sounds like fun.

--
Rick Onanian
  #9  
Old August 8th 03, 03:58 AM
Tom Sherman
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Posts: n/a
Default Thoughts on braking


David Kerber wrote:

Do you really think you can slide the front on a typical road bike on
clean pavement? I've seen a few people (not many) lock the fronts while
going straight, and they've always gone over the front, apparently
because the tire had too much traction to slide....


While the coefficient of static friction will be greater than the
coefficient of kinetic friction between the tire and pavement, there is
likely still enough retardation provided by a sliding front tire on an
upright road bike to cause a pitch-over.

It takes a high amount of braking force to lock up a wheel - I have to
pull very hard on the levers to lock up the front wheels on my tadpole
trike which has Avid cable operated disc brakes. (The combined
rider/trike center of mass is low enough and far enough back that the
rear wheel stays on the ground during application of maximum braking
force.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
  #10  
Old August 8th 03, 02:07 PM
asqui
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Posts: n/a
Default Thoughts on braking

Rick Onanian wrote:
On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:08:29 +0000 (UTC), asqui
wrote:
As for the "death trap" comment: A front brake is a death trap
because it can be misused and cause an accident, but a rear brake is
not a deathtrap when the only way for you to stop with it from speed
involves sliding all over the place and possibly under the wheels of
another vehicle?


Don't forget the whole reason you're panic-braking in the
first place: to avoid a hazard in front of you. The rear
brake [used alone for panic-stopping] is a deathtrap because
it won't accomplish anything.


I know. I was being sarcastic

When I was a little kid getting my fun out of skidding as
long as I possibly could, I found that with a little more
speed I layed a LOT longer track. I can't imagine what
would happen with the speeds I reach now and the tiny
contact patch on my 700x23c @ 125 psi tires...I bet I
could maintain my speed skidding down a moderate hill.


Until you wear through the paper-thin tires and blow the inner, because then
your contact patch would increase

Dani



 




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