testosterone testing (NY Times)

I haven't seen this posted here yet. Maybe I missed it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/sp.../28doping.html

July 28, 2006
Testing Benefits and Levels of Testosterone Is Difficult
By GINA KOLATA

The indication that Floyd Landis might have taken testosterone to win
the Tour de France gives rise to questions about how reliable the
testing was and what, if anything, a cyclist would gain from using the
hormone.

Testosterone can have powerful effects on the body, directing it to
make muscle instead of fat. And it can increase the red-blood cell
count, which may allow more oxygen to reach laboring muscles. But when
researchers have studied the hormone's effects on endurance, they
have come up empty-handed.

Dr. Shalender Bhasin, a leading testosterone researcher at Boston
University Medical Center, said he was puzzled by his and others'
inability to determine if the hormone affected endurance. In several
experiments, scientists treated men with testosterone or placebos and
then asked them to do such things as run on a treadmill until they were
exhausted. The scientists saw no difference between the men who took
testosterone and those who did not.

"No one has been able to show clearly that testosterone improves
endurance," Bhasin said.

Some athletes have said that the hormone helped in events like the Tour
de France because it increased aggressiveness or allowed them to train
harder. But that, too, has not been demonstrated, Bhasin said.

"It's folklore," he added.

Despite the result of the A sample of Landis's urine test - which
showed high levels of testosterone - it is entirely possible that he
did not take the hormone. (Landis said he planned to request an
analysis of the B sample today.) The test looks for a ratio of
testosterone to epitestosterone, a hormone that is produced in parallel
to testosterone but does not have testosterone's effects.

Dr. John Amory, an endocrinologist at the University of Washington,
said that men ordinarily produced one molecule of epitestosterone for
every molecule of testosterone. If a man takes testosterone, he will
skew his testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio.

The problem, though, is determining a normal
testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio. The World Anti-Doping Agency
used to say that a ratio of more than six to one was evidence of
testosterone abuse. Now it is using a ratio of four to one.

Dr. Timothy Foster, an endocrinologist and sports-medicine specialist
at Boston University Medical Center, said even the six-to-one ratio is
within a range that could be found naturally in many men. "If the
ratio was five to one or six to one, I would be very concerned that
this represents a normal variant," Foster said.

Bhasin agreed. "People can have high ratios without abuse," he
said. He added that one way to know if the ratio found in the test was
normal was to continue testing the athlete. If the ratio is normal for
that man, it will not change.

Endocrinologists also said it was important to know how the test was
conducted and how carefully the samples were protected from tampering.

The actual testing method "is a real bugaboo," said Dr. John
McKinlay, the senior vice president and chief scientist at the New
England Research Institute who directs the Massachusetts Male Aging
Study, which follows men and measures testosterone levels, among other
things, as they age. Some methods are fraught with errors.

Amory, who reviews doping cases for the United States Anti-Doping
Agency, said tampering was a concern.

"When we get cases to review, the chain of custody is really
paramount," he said. "If it gets out of sight for two seconds,
someone can squirt testosterone into it. And there are people like that
who would like to see an American, the winner of the Tour de France,
disgraced. That's why the chain of custody has to be codified."

And that is why the urine samples are divided in two, the A sample and
the B sample.

For now, Amory said, it was too soon to convict Landis in the court of
public opinion.

"You can't impugn his career," Amory said. "The testing has to
be done right. I am kind of surprised that five days after the fact
they are talking about the A sample without the B sample."

"yirg" wrote in message oups.com...
I haven't seen this posted here yet. Maybe I missed it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/sp.../28doping.html

Bhasin agreed. "People can have high ratios without abuse," he
said. He added that one way to know if the ratio found in the test was
normal was to continue testing the athlete. If the ratio is normal for
that man, it will not change.

So do they have Landis' ratio in other tests, say, at the beginning
of the race or at any other interval at which he was tested?

If the ratio spiked at the stage win at Morzine, then something
drastically changed in what Landis put into his body before or
during that stage.

M.

"yirg" wrote in message
oups.com...
By GINA KOLATA
Dr. Shalender Bhasin, a leading testosterone researcher at Boston
University Medical Center, said he was puzzled by his and others'
inability to determine if the hormone affected endurance. In several
experiments, scientists treated men with testosterone or placebos and
then asked them to do such things as run on a treadmill until they were
exhausted. The scientists saw no difference between the men who took
testosterone and those who did not.


I still hold it was a panic move on that Wednesday evening
after the trouble on stage 16 earlier in the day.

Normally doing that East German Androstenedione nasal
shot to assist in recovery testosterone levels shouldn't
pose a problem for drug testing the next day.

Somehow Floyd didn't respond to formula.

yirg wrote:
I haven't seen this posted here yet. Maybe I missed it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/sp.../28doping.html

July 28, 2006
Testing Benefits and Levels of Testosterone Is Difficult
By GINA KOLATA


"When we get cases to review, the chain of custody is really
paramount," he said. "If it gets out of sight for two seconds,
someone can squirt testosterone into it. And there are people like that
who would like to see an American, the winner of the Tour de France,
disgraced. That's why the chain of custody has to be codified."

And that is why the urine samples are divided in two, the A sample and
the B sample.


Imagine that!
The labs aren't perfect? oh my!

The real remedy to the situation is to have multiple labs testing each
sample.
3 labs test the A sample and 3 labs test the B sample.

I guarantee each lab will give different results/levels of drugs even
though they
test the same sample.

BTW,
How many people in here have ever tried to pipette 0.001ml of a liquid?
1ml = 1cm cubed

CowPunk wrote:
yirg wrote:

I haven't seen this posted here yet. Maybe I missed it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/sp.../28doping.html

July 28, 2006
Testing Benefits and Levels of Testosterone Is Difficult
By GINA KOLATA


"When we get cases to review, the chain of custody is really
paramount," he said. "If it gets out of sight for two seconds,
someone can squirt testosterone into it. And there are people like that
who would like to see an American, the winner of the Tour de France,
disgraced. That's why the chain of custody has to be codified."

And that is why the urine samples are divided in two, the A sample and
the B sample.



Imagine that!
The labs aren't perfect? oh my!

The real remedy to the situation is to have multiple labs testing each
sample.
3 labs test the A sample and 3 labs test the B sample.

I guarantee each lab will give different results/levels of drugs even
though they
test the same sample.

BTW,
How many people in here have ever tried to pipette 0.001ml of a liquid?
1ml = 1cm cubed



I think I probably did in my chem major days, but I've totally blocked
it out.

Steve

yirg wrote:

The actual testing method "is a real bugaboo," said Dr. John
McKinlay, the senior vice president and chief scientist at the New
England Research Institute who directs the Massachusetts Male Aging
Study, which follows men and measures testosterone levels, among other
things, as they age. Some methods are fraught with errors.

Even WADA agrees with this. Go to
http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/d...ids_aug_04.pdf
and download the WADA technical bulletin for steroid testing. Among the
interesting disclaimers you'll find in it:

"...it may not always be possible to measure epitestosterone
precisely."

"It should be borne in mind that there is significant variation between
individuals. A normal level for one individual may in another be
elevated and be consistent with doping."

"The concentration of urinary steroids such as testosterone and
epitestosterone varies greatly between individuals and also depends
upon the specific gravity of the urine."

CowPunk says...

Imagine that!
The labs aren't perfect? oh my!

The real remedy to the situation is to have multiple labs testing each
sample.
3 labs test the A sample and 3 labs test the B sample.

I guarantee each lab will give different results/levels of drugs even
though they
test the same sample.

BTW,
How many people in here have ever tried to pipette 0.001ml of a liquid?
1ml = 1cm cubed

Once upon a time I was responsible for calibrating 0.0005ml pipettes,
among other things. Then I got to gather the manufacturer specs and any
other research data I could get and argue with the QA director exactly
what constituted a passing result.

"yirg" solemnly wrote in
oups.com:

Testosterone can have powerful effects on the body, directing it to
make muscle instead of fat. And it can increase the red-blood cell
count, which may allow more oxygen to reach laboring muscles. But when
researchers have studied the hormone's effects on endurance, they
have come up empty-handed.

Dr. Shalender Bhasin, a leading testosterone researcher at Boston
University Medical Center, said he was puzzled by his and others'
inability to determine if the hormone affected endurance. In several
experiments, scientists treated men with testosterone or placebos and
then asked them to do such things as run on a treadmill until they
were
exhausted. The scientists saw no difference between the men who took
testosterone and those who did not.

"No one has been able to show clearly that testosterone improves
endurance," Bhasin said.

Some athletes have said that the hormone helped in events like the
Tour
de France because it increased aggressiveness or allowed them to train
harder. But that, too, has not been demonstrated, Bhasin said.

"It's folklore," he added.

As wrote in other newspapers, the use of testosterone for doping is a
long-term procedure, combined with the use of other doping substance,
one countering the effects of the others.

Landis may have taken too much corticoids, which made him "implose"
during Stage 16. Then knowing that testosterone counters the effect of
corticoids and has a recovery effect on muscles, Landis took
testosterone as well. But he took too much.

On Stage 17, the effects of corticoids were released and Landis was in a
"negative split", i.e. he rode like a superman. Finally ethics is safe,
he got caught.


The problem, though, is determining a normal
testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio. The World Anti-Doping Agency
used to say that a ratio of more than six to one was evidence of
testosterone abuse. Now it is using a ratio of four to one.

Dr. Timothy Foster, an endocrinologist and sports-medicine specialist
at Boston University Medical Center, said even the six-to-one ratio is
within a range that could be found naturally in many men. "If the
ratio was five to one or six to one, I would be very concerned that
this represents a normal variant," Foster said.

Bhasin agreed. "People can have high ratios without abuse," he
said. He added that one way to know if the ratio found in the test was
normal was to continue testing the athlete. If the ratio is normal for
that man, it will not change.

The French lab made 2 tests: the T/E ratio and the isotrop test, the
latter leaves no doubt on whether the testosterone is exogenous.


Endocrinologists also said it was important to know how the test was
conducted and how carefully the samples were protected from tampering.

The actual testing method "is a real bugaboo," said Dr. John
McKinlay, the senior vice president and chief scientist at the New
England Research Institute who directs the Massachusetts Male Aging
Study, which follows men and measures testosterone levels, among other
things, as they age. Some methods are fraught with errors.

Amory, who reviews doping cases for the United States Anti-Doping
Agency, said tampering was a concern.

"When we get cases to review, the chain of custody is really
paramount," he said. "If it gets out of sight for two seconds,
someone can squirt testosterone into it. And there are people like
that
who would like to see an American, the winner of the Tour de France,
disgraced. That's why the chain of custody has to be codified."

The chain of custody IS strictly codified.

Remember Canadian Ben Johonson. Nobody in the US put the test, the test
procedure and the testing lab into question since Ben Jonhson is a
Canadian. Why a special treatment for American Landis?

gabriel faure wrote:
"yirg" solemnly wrote in
oups.com:

Testosterone can have powerful effects on the body, directing it to
make muscle instead of fat. And it can increase the red-blood cell
count, which may allow more oxygen to reach laboring muscles. But when
researchers have studied the hormone's effects on endurance, they
have come up empty-handed.

Dr. Shalender Bhasin, a leading testosterone researcher at Boston
University Medical Center, said he was puzzled by his and others'
inability to determine if the hormone affected endurance. In several
experiments, scientists treated men with testosterone or placebos and
then asked them to do such things as run on a treadmill until they
were
exhausted. The scientists saw no difference between the men who took
testosterone and those who did not.

"No one has been able to show clearly that testosterone improves
endurance," Bhasin said.

Some athletes have said that the hormone helped in events like the
Tour
de France because it increased aggressiveness or allowed them to train
harder. But that, too, has not been demonstrated, Bhasin said.

"It's folklore," he added.

As wrote in other newspapers, the use of testosterone for doping is a
long-term procedure, combined with the use of other doping substance,
one countering the effects of the others.

Landis may have taken too much corticoids, which made him "implose"
during Stage 16. Then knowing that testosterone counters the effect of
corticoids and has a recovery effect on muscles, Landis took
testosterone as well. But he took too much.

On Stage 17, the effects of corticoids were released and Landis was in a
"negative split", i.e. he rode like a superman. Finally ethics is safe,
he got caught.


The problem, though, is determining a normal
testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio. The World Anti-Doping Agency
used to say that a ratio of more than six to one was evidence of
testosterone abuse. Now it is using a ratio of four to one.

Dr. Timothy Foster, an endocrinologist and sports-medicine specialist
at Boston University Medical Center, said even the six-to-one ratio is
within a range that could be found naturally in many men. "If the
ratio was five to one or six to one, I would be very concerned that
this represents a normal variant," Foster said.

Bhasin agreed. "People can have high ratios without abuse," he
said. He added that one way to know if the ratio found in the test was
normal was to continue testing the athlete. If the ratio is normal for
that man, it will not change.

The French lab made 2 tests: the T/E ratio and the isotrop test, the
latter leaves no doubt on whether the testosterone is exogenous.


Endocrinologists also said it was important to know how the test was
conducted and how carefully the samples were protected from tampering.

The actual testing method "is a real bugaboo," said Dr. John
McKinlay, the senior vice president and chief scientist at the New
England Research Institute who directs the Massachusetts Male Aging
Study, which follows men and measures testosterone levels, among other
things, as they age. Some methods are fraught with errors.

Amory, who reviews doping cases for the United States Anti-Doping
Agency, said tampering was a concern.

"When we get cases to review, the chain of custody is really
paramount," he said. "If it gets out of sight for two seconds,
someone can squirt testosterone into it. And there are people like
that
who would like to see an American, the winner of the Tour de France,
disgraced. That's why the chain of custody has to be codified."

The chain of custody IS strictly codified.

Remember Canadian Ben Johonson. Nobody in the US put the test, the test
procedure and the testing lab into question since Ben Jonhson is a
Canadian. Why a special treatment for American Landis?
You actually remember if Amwricans cared? That's going back a long time.

Is it because there wasn't mass protest on the the Internet?
Maybe because there wasn't a Internet like there is now.
You could hook up, but mostly through military and educational accounts.

Other than Compuserve and other BBSes there was no mass give and take
like now. You obviously have the ability to search out that time from
(1988) to determine who cared and how much. Feel free to give me a
search link. Other "Letters to the Editor" in sports magazines, I doubt
there was very much.

The mass media had Johnson guilty from the test
Not, much has changed. The mass media has Landis guilty also.
If there was no internet today, how much would have changed?


How many stories are still coming out that his testosterone is high.
Maybe, but the important thing is his T/E ratio. Many stories still
don't mention that.


You may want to look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Johnson_(athlete)

From the link
"Johnson’s urine sample was analysed on Sunday September 25 at the
IOC-accredited laboratory in Seoul, under the direction of Dr. Jongsei
Park. As is customary practice, the specimen was split into two parts,
the A and B samples. Only the A was tested and there were 90 nanograms
of stanozolol, an anabolic steroid, found."

That's a bit different from Landis.

"gabriel faure" a écrit dans
le message de news: 44...
| "yirg" solemnly wrote in
| oups.com:

| The French lab made 2 tests: the T/E ratio and the isotrop test, the
| latter leaves no doubt on whether the testosterone is exogenous.

Can you post a link to where you got the information that a specific test
was done which proved that the testosterone was exogenous. I've looked for
that info and all I've found is some usenet assertions.

Thanks