What Right-Wing Governance Does For Cycling

On 3/15/2011 8:49 AM, Duane Hebert wrote:
On 3/14/2011 5:45 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 3/14/2011 5:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:
On 3/14/2011 1:54 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:
On 3/13/2011 10:21 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:31 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
Nate considered Sun, 13 Mar 2011
20:53:44
-0400 the perfect time to write:

On 03/13/2011 08:33 PM, Dan O wrote:
On Mar 13, 5:09 pm, Duane wrote:
On 3/13/2011 6:55 PM, T m Sherm n _ wrote:

On 3/13/2011 5:50 PM, Duane Hebert wrote:
On 3/13/2011 6:18 PM, Peter Cole wrote:

snip

So flip him off& keep riding.
Works for me.

Seriously, as I posted above, how is it that the same people
urging
taking the lane and ignoring the upset caused the motorist by
having to
slow down, seem to be the same people saying that if we have
bike
facilities, motorists may think that we belong only in bike
facilities.
BTW I would think it more of an issue with separate facilities
then bike
lanes. if I'm on a road with a lane marked for my bike, I'm
likely in it
anyway unless there are obstacles.

The people who are already afraid of motor vehicles are not
going to
deal well with intimidating behavior, such as speeding up and
braking
at the last second behind the cyclist, or pulling alongside,
then
swerving towards the cyclist.

Not sure what you mean. I'm with the flip him off and keep
riding
idea. Doesn't matter to me what he's upset about. Besides, your
description of intimidating behavior sounds like a normal day
on the
road. At least some days...

Motorist hostility abounds. This will never change until laws and
transportation policy (including the economics of private motor
vehicle tranport - subsidies allowed for those in need) change to
pummel the car culture into submission.

I think that's just a simplification of a more widespread issue
with US
culture, which is that people in general are rude and tend not to
think
things through very much. It just so happens that the vast
majority of
people who are old enough to drive use a motor vehicle as their
primary
means of transportation. They'd still be rude if they were walking
on a
sidewalk.

Generally, it's less of a problem without the perception of
anonymity
and invulnerability that being hidden inside a car engenders.

And it isn't just in the US - it's anywhere that doesn't have the
civilising influence of presumed liability laws (which
personally, I
don't believe go far enough even where they exist).

However, the US has a popular culture that glorifies solving
problems
with violence.


In the US we kill each other, in Japan they kill themselves:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan


As Berra noted, 'you can see a lot by just looking' :

http://danmark.wordpress.com/2006/07...-nations-ever/




specifically
http://www.lilliput-information.com/...s/intkrim1.gif

and then we find:
http://fathersforlife.org/health/who_suicide_rates.htm

So maybe Japan isn't 'world class' in seppuku and maybe the
Scandivaians
are 'multi tasking' in both events. USA has a lot of murders. But then
again we have a lot of people.

"America is big and diverse. We have one of everything" is my usual
expression. Outliers are not trends.


I'm not sure what your point is. America has roughly 5x the homicide
rate and 1/3 the suicide rate of Japan. That's all I was saying. I
don't know what you're saying.


Just that human behavior is complex and defies simple analyses.


But not statistics.

One wonders.

If you consider the nearly perfect inversion (suicide rate in Japan is
widely regarded as under-reported) of homicide and suicide rates, you
can't conclude that Japan is less violent, just that the violence is
directed differently. History also provides little evidence for Japanese
non-violence (not to put too fine a point on it).

On Mar 15, 11:15*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:00*am, Duane Hebert wrote:



Bike lanes are unequal. *They give me the same right to use as a regular
lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access..

They give you the right to use the bike lane. *They tend to take away
your right to use the rest of the road - for example, to merge left
for turns, to avoid parked car doors, to avoid debris or potholes.

Sure, you can still merge out over the line; but in some places you'll
be ticketed for doing so.

Sure, you may fight the ticket. You might even win; but you'll still
be out the time and aggravation.

But even more sure, the lane does _not_ prevent the motorist from
access. *Any painted line you can ride over, a motorist can drive
over. *Your dreaded attack from the rear is still possible.

* I like the idea.

We know. * But it still makes little sense.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=htt...com/wordpress/....

http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=htt...ld.com/pete.me....

http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=htt...ort.org/bicycl....

- Frank Krygowski

I quote:

The city hopes the new lanes will help Charleston motorists remember
that they are sharing the road with cyclists. “These bicycle guide
markings will create a designated place for bicyclists to ride
safely,” says Mayor Joe Riley. “Cyclists operating carefully and
motorists operating carefully can coexist in a wonderful urban
environment.”

***

It's gonna be a hard sale, but inviting the Mayor and the rest of the
city planners to ride on said bike lanes once a week or at least once
a month, should go a long way toward SAFE BIKE LANES.

Say the voters make that a campaign issue.

On Mar 15, 8:15*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:00*am, Duane Hebert wrote:



Bike lanes are unequal. *They give me the same right to use as a regular
lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access..

They give you the right to use the bike lane. *They tend to take away
your right to use the rest of the road - for example, to merge left
for turns, to avoid parked car doors, to avoid debris or potholes.

Sure, you can still merge out over the line; but in some places you'll
be ticketed for doing so.

I'm not aware of any state that makes you stay in the bicycle lane
when it is dangerous to do so. Even the regressive Oregon law allows
you to leave the bicycle lane to merge left or right for a turn.

I think the problems with typical striped bike lanes is that (1) they
give cyclists a false sense of security -- that cars will actually
regard the lane as a lane and yield right of way, and (2) that at
merges (lanes entering or exiting on the right) where the bike lane
continue to the right and the cyclist needs to get over to continue
straight, cars assume that the bikes will go right -- following the
lane no matter what. The Oregon law specifically states that a
bicyclist may "continu[e]straight at an intersection where the bicycle
lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must
turn right" -- but I persistently get honked at for doing this, and
some people actually work at cutting me off. Again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eS...mbedded#at=271
It's that split at 4:30.


Again, I like the additional road surface, and with proper driver
education and perhaps appropriate medication for drivers, bicycle
lanes could work well. -- Jay Beattie.

PS -- the most dangerous part of my commute this morning was other
bicyclists who were having difficulty dealing with traffic merging
from the right (the bicycle chute by-pass was shut down due to
construction). Sometimes you have to jump on the accelerator and not
slow down to cope with on-coming traffic from the right. I got stuck
behind some dope who didn't know what he was doing (with no room to
get around), and we ended up between lanes of fast traffic. I got
through the first hole and got the hell out of there. There were
flocks of riders out today for some unknown reason. -- Jay Beattie.

On Mar 15, 11:49*am, Jay Beattie wrote:

PS -- the most dangerous part of my commute this morning was other
bicyclists who were having difficulty dealing with traffic merging
from the right (the bicycle chute by-pass was shut down due to
construction). *Sometimes you have to jump on the accelerator and not
slow down to cope with on-coming traffic from the right. *I got stuck
behind some dope who didn't know what he was doing (with no room to
get around), and we ended up between lanes of fast traffic. I got
through the first hole and got the hell out of there. *There were
flocks of riders out today for some unknown reason. -- Jay Beattie.

Don't you know? It's celebration time because Deco Bike opens today in
Miami Beach!

On 3/15/2011 11:49 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:

I'm not aware of any state that makes you stay in the bicycle lane
when it is dangerous to do so. Even the regressive Oregon law allows
you to leave the bicycle lane to merge left or right for a turn.

If one existed, that would be the thing worth fighting but I don't think
one exists either.

I think the problems with typical striped bike lanes is that (1) they
give cyclists a false sense of security -- that cars will actually
regard the lane as a lane and yield right of way, and

You should never have a sense of security on the road, whether in a car
or on a bike. You should drive or ride defensively.

Motorists here tend to respect the bike lanes as they get ticketed if
they don't. But I wouldn't depend on that.


(2) that at
merges (lanes entering or exiting on the right) where the bike lane
continue to the right and the cyclist needs to get over to continue
straight, cars assume that the bikes will go right -- following the
lane no matter what. The Oregon law specifically states that a
bicyclist may "continu[e]straight at an intersection where the bicycle
lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must
turn right" -- but I persistently get honked at for doing this, and
some people actually work at cutting me off. Again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eS...mbedded#at=271
It's that split at 4:30.


Again, I like the additional road surface, and with proper driver
education and perhaps appropriate medication for drivers, bicycle
lanes could work well.

I think that they already do in some cases without the additional meds
for the drivers. I use a couple during my commute that work pretty well.

On 3/15/2011 11:49 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 15, 8:15 am, Frank wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:00 am, Duane wrote:



Bike lanes are unequal. They give me the same right to use as a regular
lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access.

They give you the right to use the bike lane. They tend to take away
your right to use the rest of the road - for example, to merge left
for turns, to avoid parked car doors, to avoid debris or potholes.

Sure, you can still merge out over the line; but in some places you'll
be ticketed for doing so.

I'm not aware of any state that makes you stay in the bicycle lane
when it is dangerous to do so. Even the regressive Oregon law allows
you to leave the bicycle lane to merge left or right for a turn.

I think the problems with typical striped bike lanes is that (1) they
give cyclists a false sense of security -- that cars will actually
regard the lane as a lane and yield right of way, and (2) that at
merges (lanes entering or exiting on the right) where the bike lane
continue to the right and the cyclist needs to get over to continue
straight, cars assume that the bikes will go right -- following the
lane no matter what. The Oregon law specifically states that a
bicyclist may "continu[e]straight at an intersection where the bicycle
lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must
turn right" -- but I persistently get honked at for doing this, and
some people actually work at cutting me off. Again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eS...mbedded#at=271
It's that split at 4:30.


Again, I like the additional road surface, and with proper driver
education and perhaps appropriate medication for drivers, bicycle
lanes could work well. -- Jay Beattie.

Phew, if I had to bike commute on that route every day -- well, I
wouldn't. As much as commuting in a car sucks, that sucks much worse.
Ride with semi's in the rain -- yeah, that'll sell... Man, I just hate
riding in the suburbs.

On Mar 15, 10:30*am, Peter Cole wrote:
On 3/15/2011 11:49 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Mar 15, 8:15 am, Frank *wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:00 am, Duane *wrote:

Bike lanes are unequal. *They give me the same right to use as a regular
lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access.

They give you the right to use the bike lane. *They tend to take away
your right to use the rest of the road - for example, to merge left
for turns, to avoid parked car doors, to avoid debris or potholes.

Sure, you can still merge out over the line; but in some places you'll
be ticketed for doing so.

I'm not aware of any state that makes you stay in the bicycle lane
when it is dangerous to do so. Even the regressive Oregon law allows
you to leave the bicycle lane to merge left or right for a turn.

I think the problems with typical striped bike lanes is that (1) they
give cyclists a false sense of security -- that cars will actually
regard the lane as a lane and yield right of way, and (2) that at
merges (lanes entering or exiting on the right) where the bike lane
continue to the right and the cyclist needs to get over to continue
straight, cars assume that the bikes will go right -- following the
lane no matter what. The Oregon law specifically states that a
bicyclist may "continu[e]straight at an intersection where the bicycle
lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must
turn right" -- but I persistently get honked at for doing this, and
some people actually work at cutting me off. *Again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eS...er_embedded#at...
It's that split at 4:30.

Again, I like the additional road surface, and with proper driver
education and perhaps appropriate medication for drivers, bicycle
lanes could work well. -- Jay Beattie.

Phew, if I had to bike commute on that route every day -- well, I
wouldn't. As much as commuting in a car sucks, that sucks much worse.
Ride with semi's in the rain -- yeah, that'll sell... Man, I just hate
riding in the suburbs.- Hide quoted text -

Suburbs? Dude, that is like a mile from my office. That is town.
Looking south:http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_chirs/1685188578/
Looking north (and a little south): http://www.flickr.com/photos/sowellman/4729142192/
Anothe way to work. -- Jay.

Duane Hebert writes:

On 3/14/2011 8:32 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 3/14/2011 8:14 AM, Duane Hebert wrote:
On 3/13/2011 10:11 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:59 PM, Duane Hebert wrote:
[...]
Don't get me wrong. I don't want bike lanes or paths everywhere. Only
where they can be useful. Mostly on busy roads in congested cities.
Apparently this attitude is untenable to some. Shrug

snip

How about a wider than normal inner lane with a lower speed limit?


Sure. Not sure when that would happen though.

Makes more sense to lobby for, than for separate and unequal facilities.

Bike lanes are unequal. They give me the same right to use as a
regular lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist
from access. I like the idea.

Just to expand a bit on the argument: Suppose one had a (say) 25 foot
wide lane. That would provide enough room for two cars to drive
comfortably, why divide the lane with arbitrary markings? Why not
let drivers share the space as they see fit?

For some reason, at least in the parts of the world that have been driving
the longest, this idea is rarely put into practice for motor vehicles.
I wonder why that is?

--

On 3/15/2011 2:44 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 15, 10:30 am, Peter wrote:
On 3/15/2011 11:49 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Mar 15, 8:15 am, Frank wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:00 am, Duane wrote:

Bike lanes are unequal. They give me the same right to use as a regular
lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access.

They give you the right to use the bike lane. They tend to take away
your right to use the rest of the road - for example, to merge left
for turns, to avoid parked car doors, to avoid debris or potholes.

Sure, you can still merge out over the line; but in some places you'll
be ticketed for doing so.

I'm not aware of any state that makes you stay in the bicycle lane
when it is dangerous to do so. Even the regressive Oregon law allows
you to leave the bicycle lane to merge left or right for a turn.

I think the problems with typical striped bike lanes is that (1) they
give cyclists a false sense of security -- that cars will actually
regard the lane as a lane and yield right of way, and (2) that at
merges (lanes entering or exiting on the right) where the bike lane
continue to the right and the cyclist needs to get over to continue
straight, cars assume that the bikes will go right -- following the
lane no matter what. The Oregon law specifically states that a
bicyclist may "continu[e]straight at an intersection where the bicycle
lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must
turn right" -- but I persistently get honked at for doing this, and
some people actually work at cutting me off. Again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eS...er_embedded#at...
It's that split at 4:30.

Again, I like the additional road surface, and with proper driver
education and perhaps appropriate medication for drivers, bicycle
lanes could work well. -- Jay Beattie.

Phew, if I had to bike commute on that route every day -- well, I
wouldn't. As much as commuting in a car sucks, that sucks much worse.
Ride with semi's in the rain -- yeah, that'll sell... Man, I just hate
riding in the suburbs.- Hide quoted text -

Suburbs? Dude, that is like a mile from my office. That is town.
Looking south:http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_chirs/1685188578/
Looking north (and a little south): http://www.flickr.com/photos/sowellman/4729142192/
Anothe way to work. -- Jay.

What's the speed limit there? Seems like a pretty decent setup with the
bike lanes shown in the picture. How do you find it?

I have a similar section on my commute but no lanes and the limit is 90
k/h. A lot of trucks as well. I mentioned that I would appreciate a
bike lane there but was derided by the usual suspects.

On 3/15/2011 2:44 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 15, 10:30 am, Peter wrote:
On 3/15/2011 11:49 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Mar 15, 8:15 am, Frank wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:00 am, Duane wrote:

Bike lanes are unequal. They give me the same right to use as a regular
lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access.

They give you the right to use the bike lane. They tend to take away
your right to use the rest of the road - for example, to merge left
for turns, to avoid parked car doors, to avoid debris or potholes.

Sure, you can still merge out over the line; but in some places you'll
be ticketed for doing so.

I'm not aware of any state that makes you stay in the bicycle lane
when it is dangerous to do so. Even the regressive Oregon law allows
you to leave the bicycle lane to merge left or right for a turn.

I think the problems with typical striped bike lanes is that (1) they
give cyclists a false sense of security -- that cars will actually
regard the lane as a lane and yield right of way, and (2) that at
merges (lanes entering or exiting on the right) where the bike lane
continue to the right and the cyclist needs to get over to continue
straight, cars assume that the bikes will go right -- following the
lane no matter what. The Oregon law specifically states that a
bicyclist may "continu[e]straight at an intersection where the bicycle
lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must
turn right" -- but I persistently get honked at for doing this, and
some people actually work at cutting me off. Again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eS...er_embedded#at...
It's that split at 4:30.

Again, I like the additional road surface, and with proper driver
education and perhaps appropriate medication for drivers, bicycle
lanes could work well. -- Jay Beattie.

Phew, if I had to bike commute on that route every day -- well, I
wouldn't. As much as commuting in a car sucks, that sucks much worse.
Ride with semi's in the rain -- yeah, that'll sell... Man, I just hate
riding in the suburbs.- Hide quoted text -

Suburbs? Dude, that is like a mile from my office. That is town.
Looking south:http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_chirs/1685188578/
Looking north (and a little south): http://www.flickr.com/photos/sowellman/4729142192/
Anothe way to work. -- Jay.

Where da people at?