Torque wrenches

jeffbonny wrote:
So (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) says:

Bruce- The experts at the LBS rarely if ever use a torque wrench
because they

have calibrated hands. They know what torque to apply to each size
and
type of fastener from years of experience. BRBR

What absolute crappola...Is it in the morning or the afternoon after
their hands get tired? Is it before or after they eat.. Calibrated
hands-geeez

Any decent wrench that doesn't use this easy to find and use $20
tool needs to put his ego away and do it right.


You're full of ****.

Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?

Bill "I vote for the Eye-tallion feller" S.

From: "Paul Davis"

As I've said, this is all new to me and I lack confidence so feel the need
to be sure I'm starting off on the right foot; I feel that a torque wrench
would help with this.

Sears' $20 torque wrench, accurate to within 4% (we live in an imperfect
world):

http://tinyurl.com/2wz8l

Not guessing but measuring is very confidence-inspiring IMHO. Got my larger
sockets for BB, cassette tools etc. at a pawn shop, surprising selection. --TP

So "S o r n i" says:

You're full of ****.

Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?


My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I figured I
should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I had been building wheels
for several years at that point including working at The Cove Bike
Shop and a run of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any
problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I wrenched
with no torque wrench and on wheels I built.

From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught that your
breathing comes from your center and your center and hands connect in
an unbroken line of energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to
become aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments required
to get even a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
less tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I was 13 so
playing the bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part
of the same thing for me.

I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that not using a
torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't ego and when I'm not
sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just
doesn't happen very often.
ok?

jeffb

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 19:50:07 GMT, jeffbonny wrote:

So "S o r n i" says:

You're full of ****.

Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?


My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I figured I
should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I had been building wheels
for several years at that point including working at The Cove Bike
Shop and a run of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any
problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I wrenched
with no torque wrench and on wheels I built.

From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught that your
breathing comes from your center and your center and hands connect in
an unbroken line of energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to
become aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments required
to get even a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
less tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I was 13 so
playing the bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part
of the same thing for me.

I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that not using a
torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't ego and when I'm not
sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just
doesn't happen very often.
ok?

I believe both of you have it right.

As an aside, I've only known one upright bass player. I always thought he was a
bit on the wimpy side, on the other hand /groan I could hardly pull on doz
strings and get any sound... he practiced to Eric Dolphy.

jeffbonny wrote:
So "S o r n i" says:

You're full of ****.

Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?


My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I figured I
should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I had been building wheels
for several years at that point including working at The Cove Bike
Shop and a run of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any
problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I wrenched
with no torque wrench and on wheels I built.

From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught that your
breathing comes from your center and your center and hands connect in
an unbroken line of energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to
become aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments required
to get even a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
less tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I was 13 so
playing the bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part
of the same thing for me.

I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that not using a
torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't ego and when I'm not
sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just
doesn't happen very often.
ok?

Then you could have said all that (pehaps in many fewer words without
resorting to profane insults.

Bill "I beg to differ not same as You're full of ****" S.

So "S o r n i" says:

Then you could have said all that (pehaps in many fewer words

If you think I could convey what I did in fewer words please edit it.
Without a hint of sarcasm I would be grateful. Wordy maybe but I
didn't want my position unclear.

without resorting to profane insults.

When you attack with broad and inaccurate statements you get what you
get. FWIW I mostly agree with the guy and "begging to differ" on this
one thing does not mean I think he's full of **** on everything. Far
from it.

jeffb

jeffbonny wrote in message . ..
So "S o r n i" says:

You're full of ****.

Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?


My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I figured I
should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I had been building wheels
for several years at that point including working at The Cove Bike
Shop and a run of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any
problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I wrenched
with no torque wrench and on wheels I built.

From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught that your
breathing comes from your center and your center and hands connect in
an unbroken line of energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to
become aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments required
to get even a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
less tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I was 13 so
playing the bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part
of the same thing for me.

I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that not using a
torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't ego and when I'm not
sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just
doesn't happen very often.
ok?

jeffb


Dear Jeff,

You're full of ****.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

So (Carl Fogel) says:

Dear Jeff,

You're full of ****.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

specifically or just in general?

Jeffbonny wrote:
So (Carl Fogel) says:
Dear Jeff,

You're full of ****.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
specifically or just in general?


Dear Jeff

"If you think I could convey what I did in fewer words please edit it
Without a hint of sarcasm I would be grateful.

"Wordy maybe but I didn't want my position unclear." --Jeff Bonny on hi
"You're full of ****" pos

Hmm . . . your phrase and position don't seem to be as clear as yo
insist. First you took a few posts to explain it, and now you can't see
to understand it

If your post breaks under actual use, perhaps you should learn to use
literary torque wrench and not let your ego get in the way

Let's see--yes, that's just about tight enough . . . maybe anothe
notch? No . . . There

Carl Foge


-

In article , sorni@bite-
me.san.rr.com says...
jeffbonny wrote:
So "S o r n i" says:

You're full of ****.

Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?


My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I figured I
should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I had been building wheels
for several years at that point including working at The Cove Bike
Shop and a run of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any
problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I wrenched
with no torque wrench and on wheels I built.

From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught that your
breathing comes from your center and your center and hands connect in
an unbroken line of energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to
become aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments required
to get even a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
less tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I was 13 so
playing the bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part
of the same thing for me.

I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that not using a
torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't ego and when I'm not
sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just
doesn't happen very often.
ok?

Then you could have said all that (pehaps in many fewer words without
resorting to profane insults.

Bill "I beg to differ not same as You're full of ****" S.



My comment about "calibrated hands" was based on some observation of
various LBS of fair to excellent quality. As I was originally trained as
an engineer (likes to measure everything), I asked their advice about a
suitable torque wrench to supplement my larger 1/2' drive auto torque
wrench. I got blank stares from all of them. As I recall, they _all_
explained that they knew by feel, the appropriate torque for each
fastener. I found this to be a bit odd, especially for items like stem
bolts into alu threads, front fork suspension components and so on, so I
purchased another small torque wrench anyway. But I know these LBS's do
good work, in one case prepping a bike for several very long distance
unsupported outback desert treks (not me riding) where bike failure could
easily be fatal. So while my "calibrated hands" remark was a bit tongue-
in-cheek, I observe that good work can be done without a torque wrench by
experienced people. So I was surprised by Peter's response (given that
he is obviously a pro with an excellent reputation) and I would be still
be surprised to hear he routinely used a torque wrench on other than
critical fasteners (he didn't actually say when he did or did not use
one).

It is worth remembering that a decent design usually will work over a
fairly wide range of fastening torque. It has to because the bolt
tension will depend on thread condition, cleanliness and lubrication as
well as applied torque. Because of these variables, sometimes thread
tightening is specified by degrees of rotation after the surfaces mate,
such as with spark plugs and some cylinder head bolts. I would certainly
trust "sorni's" hands to work within those accuracy limits, although I
would prefer him to use the torque wrench every so often just to remind
himself what the designer had in mind.

Bruce Graham