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  #101  
Old October 12th 17, 01:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,652
Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 11:26:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/11/2017 2:40 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 08:30:52 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 1:19:43 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:37:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 10/9/2017 3:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 11:30:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote:

I wasn't doubting that auto-cars will exist and become popular. I was
doubting that the government will "shove them down our throats."

I wonder whether they will ever become popular given that they quite
obviously will be more expensive, perhaps much more expensive, I am
reading numbers as large as $75,000 for Google's autonomous driving
vehicle. Didn't SMS recently post something about buying a new car? I
seem to remember numbers in the range of a third of that value.

I imagine you're right, that in the short term these things will be expensive. But I expect that long term the price difference will be greatly reduced. (I imagine the phone in my pocket would have been worth ten thousand dollars 10 years ago, if it existed at all.)


Maybe. But the cost of electric cars is still a bit frightening.
However I do read that they qualify for some sort of government pay
back scheme in the U.S. Another point is battery replacement cost,
from what I read an individual that drives everyday may be looking at
a battery change in as little as 5 years.


I know several people who own hybrid cars, plus one guy who owns an
all-electric Nissan Leaf. What I've heard:

The dominant model is the Toyota Prius. It seems Prius battery life has
been much better than anticipated; they're going way over 100,000 miles.

One guy I know has a hybrid Honda Civic. He lives in a hot southern
state. After something like seven years, his battery capacity dropped
terribly. IIRC, there was some sort of recall for recalibration of
software, but he's still very dissatisfied.

Another guy, until very recently, owned a Honda Insight, the very first
hybrid I'd ever heard about. It's a tiny, super-aero two seater. He
bought his used, it had some electrical/battery problems, and Honda
astonishingly replaced the entire battery pack and some wiring for free.
However, I wouldn't count on that ever happening again. It didn't with
that Civic owner.

But the battery packs do have limited life, even if that limit is very
long. Replacement is very expensive. So when gauging the long term cost
of these cars, it would be good to know the battery lifetime. It might
be wise to sell it or trade it in before the battery's due to crap out
(if you're that kind of person), and it might be good to research the
battery issue heavily before you buy one that's used.

Even if self-driving worked only on limited access freeways, it would ease a lot
of frustration. I think it would make the experience of freeway driving much
more like the experience of riding a train in a private compartment. The couple
times I've done that, I found it to be fairly pleasant.


I was thinking about the subject last night before I dozed off and the
question popped up. At the moment (from what I read) people drive as
much as 20 mph faster then the posted speed limit. How is that going
to work in the robot car? Will it be possible to order the robot to
break the law or will traffic move at the legal speed?


IME, seeing someone 20 mph over the limit is pretty rare. Lots of people
seem to shoot for 2 to 5 over the limit, though.

I used the number as someone here posted that there was usually a
20mph allowance before you get ticketed.

I'm sure that the auto-cars will be limited to the limit (duh!). Again,
it really doesn't add much time to a typical drive.

To divert into psychology: Somehow, being in a car triggers urges to
"get to the front" or "get past this guy."

The slightly more practical justification is "I don't want to be slowed
down." But as we all know, it's not unusual to have a motorist race to
pass a bicyclist, then end up sitting at the same red light. The even
more stupid freeway example is when a construction project reduces
everything to one lane. Passing is impossible, traffic might be lined up
for a mile ahead, yet some dolts will tailgate and even honk horns if
you're not near the rear bumper of the car in front of you.


I don't know whether you remember Uncle Tom McCahill's articles in
Mechanics Illustrated but he wrote an article about speed on trips. He
drove a car coast to coast and return. One way he drove as fast as
possible and on the return he drove at the legal posted speed. The
difference was measured in hours.


Driving makes many people insane.

--
Cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #102  
Old October 12th 17, 01:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,338
Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 5:23:21 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/11/2017 5:25 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 3:18:15 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:03:46 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

Oh, Jeff you are so naive.

Yeah, that's a problem. I tend to trust and believe people. I'll try
to be less trusting and more cynical.

A government required unit at $20 mfr base price could
easily be several hundred dollars once you factor in the
usual graft/corruption/inefficiency, maybe more with some
mandated percentage of "free" transponders to targeted groups.

Governments do not produce anything. They pass one the task of
designing and building transponders. If things don't go well, they
subsidize various products in order to accelerate public acceptance.

Most likely, such a transponder will be made in China, imported by a
politically connected distributor, sold by a multi-national company,
profits deposited in Ireland, and maintained by domestic industrial
serfs in the manner of the middle ages. Rules and regulations will be
established to insure that do exactly what is not needed or wanted.
The rules and regulation will be changed every 5 years to accelerate
inventory turnover and enhance premature obsolescence. Useful
hardware life will be preset and limited to 5 years to insure
perpetual sales. Corporate welfare will be in the form of subsidies
needed to insure that the transponders are affordable. Lack of
efficiency will be insured by the traditional government agency.

How am I doing? Do you still consider me naive?

There are very good reasons that in The War On Poverty,
poverty won.

That was lost before it started. There's no money or taxes to collect
from the impoverished. Better to make war on those with money.


...with their own money. But how?


That was well established a hundred years ago:

http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_...nin.Quote.068C


Tee hee
  #103  
Old October 12th 17, 01:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,652
Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 13:58:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/11/2017 11:26 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Another guy, until very recently, owned a Honda Insight, the very first
hybrid I'd ever heard about. It's a tiny, super-aero two seater. He
bought his used, it had some electrical/battery problems, and Honda
astonishingly replaced the entire battery pack and some wiring for free.
However, I wouldn't count on that ever happening again. It didn't with
that Civic owner.


Oops. Turns out it wasn't free, but he felt it was very inexpensive and
a real bargain. They did not charge him for the labor, and he felt he
ended up with a car that was very reliable and very inexpensive to run
for a very low price.


Years ago I read an article about "electric cars". The author selected
the Volkswagen Beetle as the minimum size auto that would be
acceptable to the U.S. motoring public. After much debate about pros
and cons he got to the part about required electrical power when the
motoring population of Los Angeles arrived home at 17:30 and plugged
their cars in to be recharged :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #104  
Old October 12th 17, 01:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,076
Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On 10/11/2017 7:25 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 5:14:12 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:38:38 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 10/11/2017 1:40 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 08:30:52 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 1:19:43 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:37:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 10/9/2017 3:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 11:30:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote:

I wasn't doubting that auto-cars will exist and become popular. I was
doubting that the government will "shove them down our throats."

I wonder whether they will ever become popular given that they quite
obviously will be more expensive, perhaps much more expensive, I am
reading numbers as large as $75,000 for Google's autonomous driving
vehicle. Didn't SMS recently post something about buying a new car? I
seem to remember numbers in the range of a third of that value.

I imagine you're right, that in the short term these things will be expensive. But I expect that long term the price difference will be greatly reduced. (I imagine the phone in my pocket would have been worth ten thousand dollars 10 years ago, if it existed at all.)


Maybe. But the cost of electric cars is still a bit frightening.
However I do read that they qualify for some sort of government pay
back scheme in the U.S. Another point is battery replacement cost,
from what I read an individual that drives everyday may be looking at
a battery change in as little as 5 years.


But what do you get for this money? After all probably everyone
reading this is capable of driving an automobile so what advantage
does this, rather expensive, self-driver provide?

Well: To my astonishment, I find that I'm driving long distances much more often
since I retired. It's not just retirement that influenced that (although it
enabled it); there have been family matters that have arisen, new obligations
and avocations, different circles of friends, etc. But driving an hour each way
is now far, far too common. And sitting behind a steering wheel always seems
damned unproductive.

:-) Well, when we are in Phuket it is about a 1.25 - 1.5 hour drive
to town in today's traffic. I find that I can do all sorts of planning
and designing during the drive :-)



Even if self-driving worked only on limited access freeways, it would ease a lot
of frustration. I think it would make the experience of freeway driving much
more like the experience of riding a train in a private compartment. The couple
times I've done that, I found it to be fairly pleasant.

I was thinking about the subject last night before I dozed off and the
question popped up. At the moment (from what I read) people drive as
much as 20 mph faster then the posted speed limit. How is that going
to work in the robot car? Will it be possible to order the robot to
break the law or will traffic move at the legal speed?

And red light drag racing would obviously be right out the door too
:-)


Another problem that might arise. Will a self-driver work if one
visits Canada, or Mexico?

I guess it would depend on whether the system required a two-way communication
network. If so, Canada might achieve that before the U.S. did. (I assume a bunch
of U.S. states would declare this to be a muslim or communist conspiracy and
refuse to buy into it.)

- Frank Krygowski


--
Cheers,

John B.


Red light drag racing?
IME you punch it when the light turns green.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnalEcqFibE

--
Cheers,

John B.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oF_YUEr3es


man that guy can _climb_ !

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #105  
Old October 12th 17, 01:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,076
Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On 10/11/2017 7:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 11:26:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/11/2017 2:40 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 08:30:52 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 1:19:43 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:37:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 10/9/2017 3:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 11:30:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote:

I wasn't doubting that auto-cars will exist and become popular. I was
doubting that the government will "shove them down our throats."

I wonder whether they will ever become popular given that they quite
obviously will be more expensive, perhaps much more expensive, I am
reading numbers as large as $75,000 for Google's autonomous driving
vehicle. Didn't SMS recently post something about buying a new car? I
seem to remember numbers in the range of a third of that value.

I imagine you're right, that in the short term these things will be expensive. But I expect that long term the price difference will be greatly reduced. (I imagine the phone in my pocket would have been worth ten thousand dollars 10 years ago, if it existed at all.)


Maybe. But the cost of electric cars is still a bit frightening.
However I do read that they qualify for some sort of government pay
back scheme in the U.S. Another point is battery replacement cost,
from what I read an individual that drives everyday may be looking at
a battery change in as little as 5 years.


I know several people who own hybrid cars, plus one guy who owns an
all-electric Nissan Leaf. What I've heard:

The dominant model is the Toyota Prius. It seems Prius battery life has
been much better than anticipated; they're going way over 100,000 miles.

One guy I know has a hybrid Honda Civic. He lives in a hot southern
state. After something like seven years, his battery capacity dropped
terribly. IIRC, there was some sort of recall for recalibration of
software, but he's still very dissatisfied.

Another guy, until very recently, owned a Honda Insight, the very first
hybrid I'd ever heard about. It's a tiny, super-aero two seater. He
bought his used, it had some electrical/battery problems, and Honda
astonishingly replaced the entire battery pack and some wiring for free.
However, I wouldn't count on that ever happening again. It didn't with
that Civic owner.

But the battery packs do have limited life, even if that limit is very
long. Replacement is very expensive. So when gauging the long term cost
of these cars, it would be good to know the battery lifetime. It might
be wise to sell it or trade it in before the battery's due to crap out
(if you're that kind of person), and it might be good to research the
battery issue heavily before you buy one that's used.

Even if self-driving worked only on limited access freeways, it would ease a lot
of frustration. I think it would make the experience of freeway driving much
more like the experience of riding a train in a private compartment. The couple
times I've done that, I found it to be fairly pleasant.

I was thinking about the subject last night before I dozed off and the
question popped up. At the moment (from what I read) people drive as
much as 20 mph faster then the posted speed limit. How is that going
to work in the robot car? Will it be possible to order the robot to
break the law or will traffic move at the legal speed?


IME, seeing someone 20 mph over the limit is pretty rare. Lots of people
seem to shoot for 2 to 5 over the limit, though.

I used the number as someone here posted that there was usually a
20mph allowance before you get ticketed.

I'm sure that the auto-cars will be limited to the limit (duh!). Again,
it really doesn't add much time to a typical drive.

To divert into psychology: Somehow, being in a car triggers urges to
"get to the front" or "get past this guy."

The slightly more practical justification is "I don't want to be slowed
down." But as we all know, it's not unusual to have a motorist race to
pass a bicyclist, then end up sitting at the same red light. The even
more stupid freeway example is when a construction project reduces
everything to one lane. Passing is impossible, traffic might be lined up
for a mile ahead, yet some dolts will tailgate and even honk horns if
you're not near the rear bumper of the car in front of you.


I don't know whether you remember Uncle Tom McCahill's articles in
Mechanics Illustrated but he wrote an article about speed on trips. He
drove a car coast to coast and return. One way he drove as fast as
possible and on the return he drove at the legal posted speed. The
difference was measured in hours.


Driving makes many people insane.



Exactly.
My personal records: Madison WI to LA in 32 hours, Seattle
27, NYC 13 flat. No wonder Tom gets stopped when he drives
55 - it's suspicious!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #106  
Old October 12th 17, 01:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,338
Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 5:32:33 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/11/2017 7:25 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 5:14:12 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:38:38 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 10/11/2017 1:40 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 08:30:52 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 1:19:43 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:37:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 10/9/2017 3:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 11:30:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote:

I wasn't doubting that auto-cars will exist and become popular. I was
doubting that the government will "shove them down our throats."

I wonder whether they will ever become popular given that they quite
obviously will be more expensive, perhaps much more expensive, I am
reading numbers as large as $75,000 for Google's autonomous driving
vehicle. Didn't SMS recently post something about buying a new car? I
seem to remember numbers in the range of a third of that value.

I imagine you're right, that in the short term these things will be expensive. But I expect that long term the price difference will be greatly reduced. (I imagine the phone in my pocket would have been worth ten thousand dollars 10 years ago, if it existed at all.)


Maybe. But the cost of electric cars is still a bit frightening.
However I do read that they qualify for some sort of government pay
back scheme in the U.S. Another point is battery replacement cost,
from what I read an individual that drives everyday may be looking at
a battery change in as little as 5 years.


But what do you get for this money? After all probably everyone
reading this is capable of driving an automobile so what advantage
does this, rather expensive, self-driver provide?

Well: To my astonishment, I find that I'm driving long distances much more often
since I retired. It's not just retirement that influenced that (although it
enabled it); there have been family matters that have arisen, new obligations
and avocations, different circles of friends, etc. But driving an hour each way
is now far, far too common. And sitting behind a steering wheel always seems
damned unproductive.

:-) Well, when we are in Phuket it is about a 1.25 - 1.5 hour drive
to town in today's traffic. I find that I can do all sorts of planning
and designing during the drive :-)



Even if self-driving worked only on limited access freeways, it would ease a lot
of frustration. I think it would make the experience of freeway driving much
more like the experience of riding a train in a private compartment.. The couple
times I've done that, I found it to be fairly pleasant.

I was thinking about the subject last night before I dozed off and the
question popped up. At the moment (from what I read) people drive as
much as 20 mph faster then the posted speed limit. How is that going
to work in the robot car? Will it be possible to order the robot to
break the law or will traffic move at the legal speed?

And red light drag racing would obviously be right out the door too
:-)


Another problem that might arise. Will a self-driver work if one
visits Canada, or Mexico?

I guess it would depend on whether the system required a two-way communication
network. If so, Canada might achieve that before the U.S. did. (I assume a bunch
of U.S. states would declare this to be a muslim or communist conspiracy and
refuse to buy into it.)

- Frank Krygowski


--
Cheers,

John B.


Red light drag racing?
IME you punch it when the light turns green.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnalEcqFibE

--
Cheers,

John B.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oF_YUEr3es


man that guy can _climb_ !


I rode that and these trails the other day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiL_b1a6-_Q

That's not my video, but ... big grin
  #107  
Old October 12th 17, 05:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,590
Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 06:51:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Let me put it this way - they are putting a ballot measure on to
allow the bridge districts to raise all state owned bridge tolls
by $3. Do you think that is going to pass?


Nope. That's maintenance, not CAPEX on a new project. If the ballot
measure was to add a surtax to the bridge toll, to pay for something
specific, like a wider or better bicycle lane on all California
bridges, I think it would pass. Of course, once the state has it's
claws on the increased revenue, it's unlikely the stated bike lanes
will be built, but rather the money used for other purposes, such as
legal defense.

I call to your attention the proposed California high speed rail
system:
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/03/14/the-dream-of-high-speed-rail-in-california-is-taking-longer-and-costing-more/
10 years ago, California voters approved $40 billion in bonds for the
"Safe, Reliable High-Speed Passenger Train Bond Act for the 21st
Century". No track has actually been laid yet, but quite a bit has
been spent in various court battles, research, plans, and right of way
condemnation. Estimated cost is now up to $64 billion and climbing.
It's remotely possible that the state will run out of the bond money
before the first passenger pays $86 for a ticket. In short, the
voters knew that it was a financial boondoggle from the start, yet
voted for it anyway.

California is done with the promises of politicians. Most people
do not believe that they will EVER be able to own a new
self-driving car and they are not going to pay for others to
enjoy specialized highways.


The few people with whom I've discussed the driverless car issue
mostly agree with you. As I mentioned previously, they would never
consider buying a driverless car for themselves. However, they have
no problem forcing their spouses and children to use one so that they
will be safe from the carnage on the roads.

As for not being affordable, I believe that was the problem with the
all electric automobile. You and I could not afford a Tesla, but we
might be able to justify one of the cheaper all electric imports.


--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #108  
Old October 12th 17, 11:37 AM
Steffo Steffo is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by CycleBanter: Oct 2017
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2
Default

I read an interesting article that sooner or later we will not only use driveless cars as means of transportation, but also 70% of people will prefer to live in driveless homes https://tranio.com/world/spotlight/s...y-market_5354/ rather than buy expensive condos/houses.
  #109  
Old October 12th 17, 05:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,590
Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:37:08 +0100, Steffo
wrote:

I read an interesting article that sooner or later we will not only use
driveless cars as means of transportation, but also 70% of people will
prefer to live in driveless homes http://tinyurl.com/yangl6pa rather
than buy expensive condos/houses.


Yep. If it moves, is road legal, and can be computerized, it can be
automated to drive itself. Just keep the mobile home moving so that
it never needs to find a parking space. Progress blunders onward.

Just one problem. The road infrastructure that the US built during
the 1930's depression, and again during the cold war, is falling
apart. Roads are designed to last about 25 years and bridges about 50
years. The better built freeways, maybe also 50 years. The whole
concept of driverless cars assumes the existence and maintenance of
smooth, clean, pot hole free, and safe highways. By the time
driverless cars are perfected and the Luddites have been exterminated,
the cost of replacing and repairing the highways will probably reach
the crisis point. The car of the future might just be a 4x4 with an
articulated suspension, designed to make it's way over the rubble that
was once our freeway and highway system.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #110  
Old October 12th 17, 07:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,338
Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 9:09:36 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:37:08 +0100, Steffo
wrote:

I read an interesting article that sooner or later we will not only use
driveless cars as means of transportation, but also 70% of people will
prefer to live in driveless homes http://tinyurl.com/yangl6pa rather
than buy expensive condos/houses.


Yep. If it moves, is road legal, and can be computerized, it can be
automated to drive itself. Just keep the mobile home moving so that
it never needs to find a parking space. Progress blunders onward.

Just one problem. The road infrastructure that the US built during
the 1930's depression, and again during the cold war, is falling
apart. Roads are designed to last about 25 years and bridges about 50
years. The better built freeways, maybe also 50 years.


? These things change all the time
Caltrans is out there every day widening said freeways and so on

The whole
concept of driverless cars assumes the existence and maintenance of
smooth, clean, pot hole free, and safe highways.

Says who? They already face a number of similar problems such as lanes, turns, intersections, and traffic. Why should potholes and surface smoothness be any different or unsolvable?

By the time
driverless cars are perfected and the Luddites have been exterminated,
the cost of replacing and repairing the highways will probably reach
the crisis point. The car of the future might just be a 4x4 with an
articulated suspension, designed to make it's way over the rubble that
was once our freeway and highway system.


 




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