A few months waxing chain

On 12/17/2018 8:36 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 13:09:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/17/2018 9:45 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 5:16:03 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 16/12/2018 8:50 p.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 3:20:48 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 12:28:42 -0800, jbeattie wrote:


I do those three times a week. And them I'm not too good to ride with
the old and slow group. I did a ride before the big fires here where I
generated 340 watts for almost 10 miles. That may not be much around
here but it sure as hell is a great deal more than you loud mouthed
experts.

Me too, when I won the Cat 2 districts this year. Do you actually own a
power meter? Also, you need to tell us how long you were holding 340
watts. Distance doesn't tell us much.


Oh Jay, it was downhill, obviously.

BTW, I gave that number to my son
and told him it was a 74 year old recreational rider, and he said
"nope," not at 180-190lbs. He looks at power data day in and day out as
a job. https://stagescycling.com/us/support/

I think Tom shared with us that he is 180lbs, to which I say, kudos. I'm about the same height and 15lbs more. But assuming 180lbs, that's about 82kg for about 4.15 watts/kg for 20 minute power, which places him solidly in Cat 2 -- at age 74. Scary. If I were him, I'd skip the whole return-to-high-tech thing and round up some sponsors for Masters Worlds. My brother was in Master Worlds DH in his 60s and couldn't knock out those kinds of watts, although his thing was going down hill.

I don't care about power since I'm not training for anything. Today, my power meter was "faster than one guy, slower than another." Everything hurt after a hard ski yesterday and too much Christmas cheer last night, but I managed to hang in for a nice rain ride on my made-in-USA HED Ardenne disc wheels which roll really well. Great mid-weight road and gravel wheels.


I have the Ardennes SLs and 23s and they've been great. At around
40,000km I have not had to have them trued and this is on Quebec roads.

I came home and sprayed off the bike with a hose, which is SOP -- notwithstanding the hose-fear expressed on this NG.


Riding a dirty bike is like driving a dirty car I guess. Though I'm
more apt to wash my bike than my car...

People vary. I wash my bike about as often as I wash my car, which is
not very often. But I have a friend who keeps his motor vehicles so
pristine that the outgoing message on their phone is "I can't get to the
phone, and Fred is _probably_ outside washing his truck..."

I use fenders, and they get packed with leaves/needles and mud, so it's nice to blow them out.

I use fenders, but I must ride in much cleaner surroundings. I cut
though our little forest park pretty often, but that's mostly on gravel
paths so the bike doesn't get very dirty.

Speaking of discs, they're great in the rain. One of the guys I was riding with yesterday was on a Kona CX bike with cantis/STI and aluminum rims. The brakes howled and didn't stop him. On one downhill, he had to bail out into a parking lot because he couldn't get the bike to stop at the bottom. Getting cantis and STI just right takes a lot of fussing, and they never stop that well IMO.

I wonder what pads he had. Most of our bikes have Kool Stops and they
work well in the rain, IME. The guy's howling brakes may give a clue to
his problems. I'll admit, cantis are fussy to set up. Perhaps he just
botched the job.

But there's never been a time in my life when I could have justified
switching from cantis to discs. My only memory of being unable to stop
in the rain was about 1974 or so, when our "ten speeds" had hard rubber
pads scraping on dimpled chrome steel rims, cheap Balilla center pull
brakes, and we were riding in a waterfall of a thunderstorm. Most of
those conditions are never going to be repeated.

And almost all of my braking is gentle enough that having to squeeze
slightly harder in the rain is no big deal.

Now, there is one hill around here that my wife refuses to ride down.
The only time she did it with me, she said it was painful to have to
squeeze the brakes that hard. Perhaps I would have trouble if I
descended that in a thunderstorm? I don't know. It's easy enough to skip
that situation.

Not to start another "this is better/no that is better" argument but
years ago I bought a 75(US)$ bike in Singapore to keep on the boat. By
the time we sold the boat and moved ashore the bike was in pretty poor
condition - all that salt spray, you know. Anyway, I decided to
rebuild the bike and as I disassembled the bike I'd check each part
and "Nope! Junk!" and finally ended up with a very nice aluminum
hard-tail MTB sort of frame. I found a conventional aluminum fork and
rebuilt the bike as a sort of 26" road bike. To make a long story
short I fitted Shimano "V" brakes, probably Deore or one of the other
Shimano low end sets. When I got the bike assembled and first rode it
the brakes were really fierce, I had to keep reminding myself "don't
squeeze the brakes hard".

When the discussion of "rim brakes don't work in the wet" started I
took the bike out in the rain and tested it. Coasting down a medium
steep hill in a medium rain (rain drops only bouncing bout an inch
when they hit :-) on a normal black top road I could skid either wheel
(scary skidding the front wheel :-) or both at the same time.

This bike had conventional aluminum rims and I was using what looked
like Cool Stop but made in China pads.

I've since passed the 26" bike on to a friend but I have two classic
light weight steel frame 700c wheel bikes here (at our new country
estate :-) and one of them has short reach Deore caliper brakes -
sometimes difficult to match modern brakes with old frames - and,
again with aluminum rims and Cool Stop like pads it stops rather
abruptly. I haven't tried deliberately skidding he wheels but I
suspect that I can.

The point of this dissertation is that I suspect that rim brakes are
suitable for road bikes whether rain or shine and most of the static
about "I couldn't stop" is probably a problem of either poorly
maintained brakes, ineffective pads or brakes with insufficient
leverage.

I agree with you, at least for riding around here. But I know that
others' riding conditions differ. Jay is a much more dedicated bike
commuter than I was, he lives in hilly territory (I've been there many
times) and winter is a long, wet season. I can easily believe the tales
of rims being ground away in a few years by brake pads.

OTOH, I have one good friend here who says she'd like to buy just one
more bike, one with disc brakes. I can't imagine why. Around here they
are just not necessary.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 12/17/2018 9:50 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I find that V-brakes are easier to set up and to keep adjusted than are cantilever brakes. Just a few millimeters in difference of the length of the straddle cable can make a HUGE difference in how power cantilever brakes are. gthere's a sweet spot for that distance and if the straddle cable is too long or too short you might end up with a very spongy feeling brake.


Agreed. But I've made good use of that adjustability of the straddle
cable - for example, to increase the mechanical advantage of our
tandem's cantilever brakes. It can be a finicky adjustment, since you
lose brake shoe travel when you increase the mechanical advantage.

That reminds me, though: Cantis (and old style centerpull brakes) do
have an extra source of sponginess. Many of them have a front cable
housing stop that hangs from the headset, like this:
https://sheldonbrown.com/harris/images/brh27.jpg
and some are stamped aluminum and pretty flexible.

Some of the other designs at
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/...are-brake.html are much
more rigid and feel a lot better to me.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 18:50:44 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 8:36:56 PM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
Snipped
Not to start another "this is better/no that is better" argument but
years ago I bought a 75(US)$ bike in Singapore to keep on the boat. By
the time we sold the boat and moved ashore the bike was in pretty poor
condition - all that salt spray, you know. Anyway, I decided to
rebuild the bike and as I disassembled the bike I'd check each part
and "Nope! Junk!" and finally ended up with a very nice aluminum
hard-tail MTB sort of frame. I found a conventional aluminum fork and
rebuilt the bike as a sort of 26" road bike. To make a long story
short I fitted Shimano "V" brakes, probably Deore or one of the other
Shimano low end sets. When I got the bike assembled and first rode it
the brakes were really fierce, I had to keep reminding myself "don't
squeeze the brakes hard".

When the discussion of "rim brakes don't work in the wet" started I
took the bike out in the rain and tested it. Coasting down a medium
steep hill in a medium rain (rain drops only bouncing bout an inch
when they hit :-) on a normal black top road I could skid either wheel
(scary skidding the front wheel :-) or both at the same time.

This bike had conventional aluminum rims and I was using what looked
like Cool Stop but made in China pads.

I've since passed the 26" bike on to a friend but I have two classic
light weight steel frame 700c wheel bikes here (at our new country
estate :-) and one of them has short reach Deore caliper brakes -
sometimes difficult to match modern brakes with old frames - and,
again with aluminum rims and Cool Stop like pads it stops rather
abruptly. I haven't tried deliberately skidding he wheels but I
suspect that I can.

The point of this dissertation is that I suspect that rim brakes are
suitable for road bikes whether rain or shine and most of the static
about "I couldn't stop" is probably a problem of either poorly
maintained brakes, ineffective pads or brakes with insufficient
leverage.

cheers,

John B.

I think the major problem with rim brakes is that people are simply riding too fast for the conditions. Then again sand and grit on trails or pure off road can work like an excellent grinding paste if wet and one doesn't clean the pads and rims periodically. However, a friend of mine a number of years ago spent $1,500,00 Canadian on a DaVinci MTB with mechanical disc brakes and had nothing but trouble with them. Numerous bike shops were unable to find and correct the problem. he was really doing through brake discs on that bike. Many times on different rides he'd say look at this. He'd be riding along with the brake lever touching the handlebar. I never did figure out what the problem was or why he went through disc brake pads so quickly. I do know that he got fed up with the issues and not having strong braking when he wanted it. So much so that he swapped out the disc brake wheels for V-brake ones. He still rides that bike and is quite happy with it.

Not only rim brakes. I think that some (many?) cyclists ride too fast
for conditions. The dangerous "Door Zone" for example... Just slow
down so you can stop in time :-)


I find that V-brakes are easier to set up and to keep adjusted than are cantilever brakes. Just a few millimeters in difference of the length of the straddle cable can make a HUGE difference in how power cantilever brakes are. gthere's a sweet spot for that distance and if the straddle cable is too long or too short you might end up with a very spongy feeling brake.

Yes, I find V brakes very simple to adjust and very powerful. It is
too bad that Shimano doesn't charge a higher price for them so we
could use them on a "good" bike without losing face :-)

Maybe if they were made in Italy?

cheers,

John B.

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 6:50:45 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 8:36:56 PM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
Snipped
Not to start another "this is better/no that is better" argument but
years ago I bought a 75(US)$ bike in Singapore to keep on the boat. By
the time we sold the boat and moved ashore the bike was in pretty poor
condition - all that salt spray, you know. Anyway, I decided to
rebuild the bike and as I disassembled the bike I'd check each part
and "Nope! Junk!" and finally ended up with a very nice aluminum
hard-tail MTB sort of frame. I found a conventional aluminum fork and
rebuilt the bike as a sort of 26" road bike. To make a long story
short I fitted Shimano "V" brakes, probably Deore or one of the other
Shimano low end sets. When I got the bike assembled and first rode it
the brakes were really fierce, I had to keep reminding myself "don't
squeeze the brakes hard".

When the discussion of "rim brakes don't work in the wet" started I
took the bike out in the rain and tested it. Coasting down a medium
steep hill in a medium rain (rain drops only bouncing bout an inch
when they hit :-) on a normal black top road I could skid either wheel
(scary skidding the front wheel :-) or both at the same time.

This bike had conventional aluminum rims and I was using what looked
like Cool Stop but made in China pads.

I've since passed the 26" bike on to a friend but I have two classic
light weight steel frame 700c wheel bikes here (at our new country
estate :-) and one of them has short reach Deore caliper brakes -
sometimes difficult to match modern brakes with old frames - and,
again with aluminum rims and Cool Stop like pads it stops rather
abruptly. I haven't tried deliberately skidding he wheels but I
suspect that I can.

The point of this dissertation is that I suspect that rim brakes are
suitable for road bikes whether rain or shine and most of the static
about "I couldn't stop" is probably a problem of either poorly
maintained brakes, ineffective pads or brakes with insufficient
leverage.

cheers,

John B.

I think the major problem with rim brakes is that people are simply riding too fast for the conditions. Then again sand and grit on trails or pure off road can work like an excellent grinding paste if wet and one doesn't clean the pads and rims periodically. However, a friend of mine a number of years ago spent $1,500,00 Canadian on a DaVinci MTB with mechanical disc brakes and had nothing but trouble with them. Numerous bike shops were unable to find and correct the problem. he was really doing through brake discs on that bike. Many times on different rides he'd say look at this. He'd be riding along with the brake lever touching the handlebar. I never did figure out what the problem was or why he went through disc brake pads so quickly. I do know that he got fed up with the issues and not having strong braking when he wanted it. So much so that he swapped out the disc brake wheels for V-brake ones. He still rides that bike and is quite happy with it.

I find that V-brakes are easier to set up and to keep adjusted than are cantilever brakes. Just a few millimeters in difference of the length of the straddle cable can make a HUGE difference in how power cantilever brakes are. gthere's a sweet spot for that distance and if the straddle cable is too long or too short you might end up with a very spongy feeling brake.

A mis-adjusted cable disc brake can be terrible to the point of being useless, so you have to make sure to adjust the pad-to-rotor distance as the pads wear. With hydraulics, they self-adjust, and you can wear the pad down to the carriers and still get pretty good braking. I did that once and, thankfully, did not destroy the rotor. The Shimano discs have very convenient plug-and-play pads that pop in through the back of the brake. Changing pads takes a minute. The down-side is that they are expensive.

You also have to be a bit of a plumber if you do your own install and/or bleed, and the last front caliper I purchased, a BR-RS785, leaked, and I had to open it up and replace an internal o-ring. You can also get piston sticking and pad drag -- which is entirely fixable. A piston seal failure is repairable, but most people don't want to deal with it and buy a new caliper or get a warranty replacement. I haven't had a piston seal fail. Shimano calipers, depending on model, are relatively cheap. The BR-RS785 is $49 locally.


And about going too fast, well, my tire profile keeps me from going too fast. I ride with a bunch of current and retired PNW racers, and you would be amazed at how restrained we are on wet descents. When I couldn't bring myself to a stop with either bad cantis or a misadjusted cable disc, I was going slowly down a very steep hill. It was the same deal with my friend this weekend. My hydraulic discs just let me brake normally without the free fall as my rims get wiped off, and I don't wince as I listen to my rims getting ground down. I never wonder if I will stop, and when I first got them, I had to moderate my braking force to avoid fish-tailing.


-- Jay Beattie.

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 22:11:17 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/17/2018 8:36 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

Much Deleted

When the discussion of "rim brakes don't work in the wet" started I
took the bike out in the rain and tested it. Coasting down a medium
steep hill in a medium rain (rain drops only bouncing bout an inch
when they hit :-) on a normal black top road I could skid either wheel
(scary skidding the front wheel :-) or both at the same time.

This bike had conventional aluminum rims and I was using what looked
like Cool Stop but made in China pads.

I've since passed the 26" bike on to a friend but I have two classic
light weight steel frame 700c wheel bikes here (at our new country
estate :-) and one of them has short reach Deore caliper brakes -
sometimes difficult to match modern brakes with old frames - and,
again with aluminum rims and Cool Stop like pads it stops rather
abruptly. I haven't tried deliberately skidding he wheels but I
suspect that I can.

The point of this dissertation is that I suspect that rim brakes are
suitable for road bikes whether rain or shine and most of the static
about "I couldn't stop" is probably a problem of either poorly
maintained brakes, ineffective pads or brakes with insufficient
leverage.

I agree with you, at least for riding around here. But I know that
others' riding conditions differ. Jay is a much more dedicated bike
commuter than I was, he lives in hilly territory (I've been there many
times) and winter is a long, wet season. I can easily believe the tales
of rims being ground away in a few years by brake pads.

I think that bicycle riding is a very different game depending on
where one rides. And wear and tear is going to be different also. (In
fact) they actually make special bicycles for different purposes :-)

As for wearing away, it would be perfectly feasible to build a set of
rims that wouldn't wear away in two years. The old chrome plated steel
rims lasted for years and years but of course the CF wasn't what the
"NEW" lighter (softer) aluminum wheels are so everyone is riding
around on soft metal and complaining because it wears rapidly :-)
I'm reminded of Keith Bontrager's statement that "it can be strong,
light, cheap, pick two".

Every time someone complains about bicycles I am reminded of the post
someone made here stating that the two things he felt were most
important about a bicycle helmet was (1) light weight, and (2) cool
(in the sense of temperature, not fashion).


OTOH, I have one good friend here who says she'd like to buy just one
more bike, one with disc brakes. I can't imagine why. Around here they
are just not necessary.

I have little experience with bicycle disk brakes but the one friend
that had one didn't like them. He said that the disks bent easily and
the pads wore out frequently. His solution was to get rid of the disk
brake bike and buy one with V brakes.

cheers,

John B.

On 18/12/18 3:42 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:

As for wearing away, it would be perfectly feasible to build a set of
rims that wouldn't wear away in two years.

It has been done. Mavic made aluminium rims with a ceramic layer on the
braking surface. Mine lasted a very long time (and distance).

The braking was not so good when they first got wet, but after a while
of braking in wet conditions, they started working better. Certainly
well enough for me.

--
JS

On 18/12/18 3:53 pm, James wrote:
On 18/12/18 3:42 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:

As for wearing away, it would be perfectly feasible to build a set of
rims that wouldn't wear away in two years.

It has been done.Â* Mavic made aluminium rims with a ceramic layer on the
braking surface.Â* Mine lasted a very long time (and distance).

The braking was not so good when they first got wet, but after a while
of braking in wet conditions, they started working better.Â* Certainly
well enough for me.


I should add that the braking surface was still fine and dandy by the
time the rims were stuffed. The eyelets corroded and broke in half,
then the rims cracked around the spoke holes.

--
JS

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 19:56:56 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 6:50:45 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 8:36:56 PM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
Snipped
Not to start another "this is better/no that is better" argument but
years ago I bought a 75(US)$ bike in Singapore to keep on the boat. By
the time we sold the boat and moved ashore the bike was in pretty poor
condition - all that salt spray, you know. Anyway, I decided to
rebuild the bike and as I disassembled the bike I'd check each part
and "Nope! Junk!" and finally ended up with a very nice aluminum
hard-tail MTB sort of frame. I found a conventional aluminum fork and
rebuilt the bike as a sort of 26" road bike. To make a long story
short I fitted Shimano "V" brakes, probably Deore or one of the other
Shimano low end sets. When I got the bike assembled and first rode it
the brakes were really fierce, I had to keep reminding myself "don't
squeeze the brakes hard".

When the discussion of "rim brakes don't work in the wet" started I
took the bike out in the rain and tested it. Coasting down a medium
steep hill in a medium rain (rain drops only bouncing bout an inch
when they hit :-) on a normal black top road I could skid either wheel
(scary skidding the front wheel :-) or both at the same time.

This bike had conventional aluminum rims and I was using what looked
like Cool Stop but made in China pads.

I've since passed the 26" bike on to a friend but I have two classic
light weight steel frame 700c wheel bikes here (at our new country
estate :-) and one of them has short reach Deore caliper brakes -
sometimes difficult to match modern brakes with old frames - and,
again with aluminum rims and Cool Stop like pads it stops rather
abruptly. I haven't tried deliberately skidding he wheels but I
suspect that I can.

The point of this dissertation is that I suspect that rim brakes are
suitable for road bikes whether rain or shine and most of the static
about "I couldn't stop" is probably a problem of either poorly
maintained brakes, ineffective pads or brakes with insufficient
leverage.

cheers,

John B.

I think the major problem with rim brakes is that people are simply riding too fast for the conditions. Then again sand and grit on trails or pure off road can work like an excellent grinding paste if wet and one doesn't clean the pads and rims periodically. However, a friend of mine a number of years ago spent $1,500,00 Canadian on a DaVinci MTB with mechanical disc brakes and had nothing but trouble with them. Numerous bike shops were unable to find and correct the problem. he was really doing through brake discs on that bike. Many times on different rides he'd say look at this. He'd be riding along with the brake lever touching the handlebar. I never did figure out what the problem was or why he went through disc brake pads so quickly. I do know that he got fed up with the issues and not having strong braking when he wanted it. So much so that he swapped out the disc brake wheels for V-brake ones. He still rides that bike and is quite happy with it.

I find that V-brakes are easier to set up and to keep adjusted than are cantilever brakes. Just a few millimeters in difference of the length of the straddle cable can make a HUGE difference in how power cantilever brakes are. gthere's a sweet spot for that distance and if the straddle cable is too long or too short you might end up with a very spongy feeling brake.

A mis-adjusted cable disc brake can be terrible to the point of being
useless, so you have to make sure to adjust the pad-to-rotor distance
as the pads wear. With hydraulics, they self-adjust, and you can wear
the pad down to the carriers and still get pretty good braking. I did
that once and, thankfully, did not destroy the rotor. The Shimano
discs have very convenient plug-and-play pads that pop in through the
back of the brake. Changing pads takes a minute. The down-side is that
they are expensive.

You also have to be a bit of a plumber if you do your own install and/or bleed, and the last front caliper I purchased, a BR-RS785, leaked, and I had to open it up and replace an internal o-ring. You can also get piston sticking and pad drag -- which is entirely fixable. A piston seal failure is repairable, but most people don't want to deal with it and buy a new caliper or get a warranty replacement. I haven't had a piston seal fail. Shimano calipers, depending on model, are relatively cheap. The BR-RS785 is $49 locally.

Hydraulic brakes have been used in U.S. production cars from 1924 with
relatively few problems and as soon as they are installed on bicycles
Bingo! Problems.

And about going too fast, well, my tire profile keeps me from going too fast. I ride with a bunch of current and retired PNW racers, and you would be amazed at how restrained we are on wet descents. When I couldn't bring myself to a stop with either bad cantis or a misadjusted cable disc, I was going slowly down a very steep hill. It was the same deal with my friend this weekend. My hydraulic discs just let me brake normally without the free fall as my rims get wiped off, and I don't wince as I listen to my rims getting ground down. I never wonder if I will stop, and when I first got them, I had to moderate my braking force to avoid fish-tailing.


-- Jay Beattie.



cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 2:27:33 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 5:50:22 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 3:20:48 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 12:28:42 -0800, jbeattie wrote:


I do those three times a week. And them I'm not too good to ride with
the old and slow group. I did a ride before the big fires here where I
generated 340 watts for almost 10 miles. That may not be much around
here but it sure as hell is a great deal more than you loud mouthed
experts.

Me too, when I won the Cat 2 districts this year. Do you actually own a
power meter? Also, you need to tell us how long you were holding 340
watts. Distance doesn't tell us much.


Oh Jay, it was downhill, obviously.

BTW, I gave that number to my son
and told him it was a 74 year old recreational rider, and he said
"nope," not at 180-190lbs. He looks at power data day in and day out as
a job. https://stagescycling.com/us/support/

I think Tom shared with us that he is 180lbs, to which I say, kudos. I'm about the same height and 15lbs more. But assuming 180lbs, that's about 82kg for about 4.15 watts/kg for 20 minute power, which places him solidly in Cat 2 -- at age 74. Scary. If I were him, I'd skip the whole return-to-high-tech thing and round up some sponsors for Masters Worlds. My brother was in Master Worlds DH in his 60s and couldn't knock out those kinds of watts, although his thing was going down hill.

I don't care about power since I'm not training for anything. Today, my power meter was "faster than one guy, slower than another." Everything hurt after a hard ski yesterday and too much Christmas cheer last night, but I managed to hang in for a nice rain ride on my made-in-USA HED Ardenne disc wheels which roll really well. Great mid-weight road and gravel wheels.

I came home and sprayed off the bike with a hose, which is SOP -- notwithstanding the hose-fear expressed on this NG.

-- Jay Beattie.

Wouldn't that be nice if I could always know when I'm going to be up? I was approaching an uphill and two people caught up with me - some guy who pretty obviously had just finished an organized century that I had entered but not attended and some other guy who had a Triple Crown windbreaker on. The century guys was going pretty slow and I was going to ride him back in to the end. The Triple Crown guy you could tell had just put in 10 miles and pulled around us and shot up this 4% hill. That was pretty impolite in my book and I dropped it down a couple of cogs and passed him at 24 mph and then hit a section where the hill flattened and I took it up to 28 mph. I stopped at the top and he went passed without looking at me. I waited for the other guy and rode back in with him to make sure he was OK In several years I've only done that hill that fast twice.

And on Redwood Rd. which is 7% I would get ****ed at the front guys dropping everyone else and once in awhile I would let them get 200 or more yards and then run them down and beat them to the top. But the last time I tried that I could only catch them and ride in with them.

The 10K happened when I showed up at the starting point and we normally do a 1 1/2 miles back past my home and continue another 10 miles to the coffee stop. I had just changed stems and it started slipping just a short walk from my home. So I went over and got a different bike and took off after them hoping to catch them. But I had taken too long to get the bike and they had just gotten to the coffee stop when I got there. And they are dead slow on good days.

It was dead flat, into a reported 20 mph headwind and I set the timer on my speedo. Gribble's calculator actually said 340 watts but for a half of a mile I rode cross wind. So I took the estimation of 300 watts. I was holding a dead steady speed and the wind was steady. My idea had been to go as fast as I could without blowing up. And it worked but the ride home wasn't that much fun. Though down wind so was I.

Like I said Tom, 340 Watt or even 300 Watt is an awful lot. My reference is the FTP test I regurarly do with a power meter. In this example I managed an average of 260 Watt over 20 minutes.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/2778254288

The test means go as fast as you can for 20 minutes and that is not fun. Your FTP is then 95% of your average power over that 20 minutes. In this case for me it was 247 Watt. I'm 62 years old and weigh 74 kg. After 20 minutes you must have blown up otherwise the you did not do it right. I know using a power meter that adding 40 Watts would be enormous. You must have more talent.

Lou

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 3:14:35 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 2:27:33 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 5:50:22 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 3:20:48 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 12:28:42 -0800, jbeattie wrote:


I do those three times a week. And them I'm not too good to ride with
the old and slow group. I did a ride before the big fires here where I
generated 340 watts for almost 10 miles. That may not be much around
here but it sure as hell is a great deal more than you loud mouthed
experts.

Me too, when I won the Cat 2 districts this year. Do you actually own a
power meter? Also, you need to tell us how long you were holding 340
watts. Distance doesn't tell us much.


Oh Jay, it was downhill, obviously.

BTW, I gave that number to my son
and told him it was a 74 year old recreational rider, and he said
"nope," not at 180-190lbs. He looks at power data day in and day out as
a job. https://stagescycling.com/us/support/

I think Tom shared with us that he is 180lbs, to which I say, kudos. I'm about the same height and 15lbs more. But assuming 180lbs, that's about 82kg for about 4.15 watts/kg for 20 minute power, which places him solidly in Cat 2 -- at age 74. Scary. If I were him, I'd skip the whole return-to-high-tech thing and round up some sponsors for Masters Worlds. My brother was in Master Worlds DH in his 60s and couldn't knock out those kinds of watts, although his thing was going down hill.

I don't care about power since I'm not training for anything. Today, my power meter was "faster than one guy, slower than another." Everything hurt after a hard ski yesterday and too much Christmas cheer last night, but I managed to hang in for a nice rain ride on my made-in-USA HED Ardenne disc wheels which roll really well. Great mid-weight road and gravel wheels.

I came home and sprayed off the bike with a hose, which is SOP -- notwithstanding the hose-fear expressed on this NG.

-- Jay Beattie.

Wouldn't that be nice if I could always know when I'm going to be up? I was approaching an uphill and two people caught up with me - some guy who pretty obviously had just finished an organized century that I had entered but not attended and some other guy who had a Triple Crown windbreaker on. The century guys was going pretty slow and I was going to ride him back in to the end. The Triple Crown guy you could tell had just put in 10 miles and pulled around us and shot up this 4% hill. That was pretty impolite in my book and I dropped it down a couple of cogs and passed him at 24 mph and then hit a section where the hill flattened and I took it up to 28 mph. I stopped at the top and he went passed without looking at me. I waited for the other guy and rode back in with him to make sure he was OK In several years I've only done that hill that fast twice.

And on Redwood Rd. which is 7% I would get ****ed at the front guys dropping everyone else and once in awhile I would let them get 200 or more yards and then run them down and beat them to the top. But the last time I tried that I could only catch them and ride in with them.

The 10K happened when I showed up at the starting point and we normally do a 1 1/2 miles back past my home and continue another 10 miles to the coffee stop. I had just changed stems and it started slipping just a short walk from my home. So I went over and got a different bike and took off after them hoping to catch them. But I had taken too long to get the bike and they had just gotten to the coffee stop when I got there. And they are dead slow on good days.

It was dead flat, into a reported 20 mph headwind and I set the timer on my speedo. Gribble's calculator actually said 340 watts but for a half of a mile I rode cross wind. So I took the estimation of 300 watts. I was holding a dead steady speed and the wind was steady. My idea had been to go as fast as I could without blowing up. And it worked but the ride home wasn't that much fun. Though down wind so was I.

Like I said Tom, 340 Watt or even 300 Watt is an awful lot. My reference is the FTP test I regurarly do with a power meter. In this example I managed an average of 260 Watt over 20 minutes.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/2778254288

The test means go as fast as you can for 20 minutes and that is not fun. Your FTP is then 95% of your average power over that 20 minutes. In this case for me it was 247 Watt. I'm 62 years old and weigh 74 kg. After 20 minutes you must have blown up otherwise the you did not do it right. I know using a power meter that adding 40 Watts would be enormous. You must have more talent.

Lou

Tom did 10k at 21mph which is about 17 minutes and then 6k at let's say 13mph for warm-up and warm-down. That's another 17 minutes. He's 180lbs or 81.6K. So his 34 minute power is 340 watts or 4.16 watts per Kg. Let's (conservatively) up that .10 watts/Kg for 20 minute power. He's Cat 1. https://forums.mtbr.com/attachments/...ight-chart.png Pretty damned impressive for a 74 year old. Maybe I can still achieve my dream of being a Cat 1 because, you know, I'm getting so much faster as I grow older.

-- Jay Beattie.