too-long spokes

On 11/2/2012 7:56 AM, datakoll wrote:
WELL COOP YAWL SEE THE PROB NO ?

but wait ? does spoke clac give spoke lengths shorter than reality or only lengths longer than reality ?

is that software important ?

to grind or not to grind

0-1-0-1-0-0-0-0 ?

et tu Sapim ?


This unending confusion persists because some folks prefer a
value including full nipple depth and others do not, some
add in 2mm to include the nipple head, some hyper-correct or
second guess and so end up too long or short. 'ERD' then has
different values for different people and I am truly
sympathetic to the issue.

That being said, when one builds wheels regularly and
develops a functional system (be that trial and error with a
notebook of values or a software program or a chunk of wood
or what have you)these errors disappear or are at least
mitigated. Think of a competent tailor, who will chalk your
cuffs and take up slacks correctly and quickly without
knowing any numeric values for whatever is called 'inseam'
on any given day.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, November 2, 2012 3:37:38 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:

That being said, when one builds wheels regularly and

develops a functional system (be that trial and error with a

notebook of values or a software program or a chunk of wood

or what have you)these errors disappear or are at least

mitigated. Think of a competent tailor, who will chalk your

cuffs and take up slacks correctly and quickly without

knowing any numeric values for whatever is called 'inseam'

on any given day.

That makes sense to me. I enjoy taking on lots of widely varying projects - from welding to home remodeling to writing music harmonies to mechanism design to machining, etc. etc. But I'm aware that a pro can do most of them far faster than I can. One of the reasons is, pros develop good judgment for the necessary tolerance.

I recall when a very good friend of mine (professional finish carpenter) was helping me finish my basement room, a project that involved some unusual angles. When he was absent, I took at least 15 minutes using my Machinery's Handbook to compute some weird compound angle I had to cut. When he arrived, he said something like "I'd have just done _this_" (holding up two pieces of wood to demonstrate) "and been done with it." And he was right.

My way might have been more precise. But, "Good enough is perfect."

- Frank Krygowski

ahhh no no no there's NO confusion. Spoke Clac is touted as a real measurement so Cooper show up asking WTF ?

ITSNOT A REAL MEASUREMENT

SPOKE CLAC IS A THEORETICAL MEASUREMENT FROM WHICH MM IS SUNTRACTED TO GET THE REAL MEASUREMENT*

ALL SPOKE CLAC INSTURCTIONS SHOULD STATE THESE FACTS UPFRONT

they do not.

worser, people in lBS and Mail Odor beleive Spake Clac is a real measure doling out wrong sized spokes until beheaded by reality.

* 36's post shows how worser the situation grows.


spokes too long are NO GOOD

The problem has nothing to do with craftsmanship

its fraud, misrepresentation, unethical ambiguity....

no explanation for the problems egregious effects

Op 3-11-2012 0:07, schreef:
That makes sense to me. I enjoy taking on lots of widely varying projects - from welding to home remodeling to writing music harmonies to mechanism design to machining, etc. etc. But I'm aware that a pro can do most of them far faster than I can. One of the reasons is, pros develop good judgment for the necessary tolerance.

The reason pro's can do it faster is: they have more experience,
better/suitable tools but the often cut corners at the expense of
quality. I'm not a 'good enough' person, I want the best result
possible. I'm quite handy and I can do most of the homework myself. The
only problem is time. I have not the time to do it all myself and not
all the tools. The results of the projects I did myself will be at least
as good as a pro, most of the times better. Why? Because I have the
motivation to spend the time to make the result perfect. If a pro can do
the job better I don't do it myself.

Lou

shreeep-


buy a watch ? get one with 26 hours/day

On Nov 3, 4:11 am, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 3-11-2012 0:07, schreef:

That makes sense to me. I enjoy taking on lots of widely varying projects - from welding to home remodeling to writing music harmonies to mechanism design to machining, etc. etc. But I'm aware that a pro can do most of them far faster than I can. One of the reasons is, pros develop good judgment for the necessary tolerance.

The reason pro's can do it faster is: they have more experience,
better/suitable tools but the often cut corners at the expense of
quality. I'm not a 'good enough' person, I want the best result
possible. I'm quite handy and I can do most of the homework myself. The
only problem is time. I have not the time to do it all myself and not
all the tools. The results of the projects I did myself will be at least
as good as a pro, most of the times better. Why? Because I have the
motivation to spend the time to make the result perfect. If a pro can do
the job better I don't do it myself.


It's true that pros generally have to be productive, and this leads to
"good enough"; but some do really care to do always (truly) excellent
work. It's a too rare and wonderful combination when skill and
quality combine that way.

That said, I, too, prefer doing things myself - both for the "if you
want something done right... " paradigm, and the feeling of self-
sufficiency. I really appreciate the pros especially, and other
gurus who help steer me in the right direction.

On 11/3/2012 2:21 PM, Dan O wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:11 am, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 3-11-2012 0:07, schreef:

That makes sense to me. I enjoy taking on lots of widely varying projects - from welding to home remodeling to writing music harmonies to mechanism design to machining, etc. etc. But I'm aware that a pro can do most of them far faster than I can. One of the reasons is, pros develop good judgment for the necessary tolerance.

The reason pro's can do it faster is: they have more experience,
better/suitable tools but the often cut corners at the expense of
quality. I'm not a 'good enough' person, I want the best result
possible. I'm quite handy and I can do most of the homework myself. The
only problem is time. I have not the time to do it all myself and not
all the tools. The results of the projects I did myself will be at least
as good as a pro, most of the times better. Why? Because I have the
motivation to spend the time to make the result perfect. If a pro can do
the job better I don't do it myself.


It's true that pros generally have to be productive, and this leads to
"good enough"; but some do really care to do always (truly) excellent
work. It's a too rare and wonderful combination when skill and
quality combine that way.

That said, I, too, prefer doing things myself - both for the "if you
want something done right... " paradigm, and the feeling of self-
sufficiency. I really appreciate the pros especially, and other
gurus who help steer me in the right direction.


My point was not to sloppy work but rather to say that the
cost of doing something badly, doing it over or even slowly
is too much to bear and so people develop systems to give
good results dependably and consistently regardless of
nomenclature.

Just exactly as with 'ERD', no one knows what 'inseam' means
or from whence to measure and yet tailors take up slacks
without knowing any numerical value for whatever inseam
might be.

It does not matter what you call ERD or how you achieve a
spoke length decision. It does matter if the spoke is the
correct length and it does matter quite a bit if one is in
error.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, November 3, 2012 3:21:23 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:11 am, Lou Holtman wrote:

Op 3-11-2012 0:07, schreef:



That makes sense to me. I enjoy taking on lots of widely varying projects - from welding to home remodeling to writing music harmonies to mechanism design to machining, etc. etc. But I'm aware that a pro can do most of them far faster than I can. One of the reasons is, pros develop good judgment for the necessary tolerance.



The reason pro's can do it faster is: they have more experience,

better/suitable tools but the often cut corners at the expense of

quality. I'm not a 'good enough' person, I want the best result

possible. I'm quite handy and I can do most of the homework myself. The

only problem is time. I have not the time to do it all myself and not

all the tools. The results of the projects I did myself will be at least

as good as a pro, most of the times better. Why? Because I have the

motivation to spend the time to make the result perfect. If a pro can do

the job better I don't do it myself.

It's true that pros generally have to be productive, and this leads to

"good enough"; but some do really care to do always (truly) excellent

work. It's a too rare and wonderful combination when skill and

quality combine that way.

The point about the phrase "Good enough is perfect" is that tolerances exist for a reason. One of the things that freshman engineering students have to learn is that when dimensioning a part, one doesn't put tolerances of "plus or minus 0.001" on everything. Instead, one analyzes how large the tolerances can be while still providing the desired functionality. If plus or minus 0.050" functions just as well, there's real detriment in shooting for anything tighter.

I suppose in some cases, it's appearance that's at stake, not function. But IME, even then a really competent pro knows what will show and what won't..

BTW, I had a long conversation this morning with the guy I mentioned earlier, the one who helped me on my basement room. He now lives about 900 miles away, so I haven't seen him for a while. But he talked about two recent jobs, doing interior work on the mansions of millionaires. His reputation is good enough for him to land work with very exacting clients.

- Frank Krygowski

On Nov 3, 2:30 pm, wrote:
On Saturday, November 3, 2012 3:21:23 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:11 am, Lou Holtman wrote:

Op 3-11-2012 0:07, schreef:

That makes sense to me. I enjoy taking on lots of widely varying projects - from welding to home remodeling to writing music harmonies to mechanism design to machining, etc. etc. But I'm aware that a pro can do most of them far faster than I can. One of the reasons is, pros develop good judgment for the necessary tolerance.

The reason pro's can do it faster is: they have more experience,

better/suitable tools but the often cut corners at the expense of

quality. I'm not a 'good enough' person, I want the best result

possible. I'm quite handy and I can do most of the homework myself. The

only problem is time. I have not the time to do it all myself and not

all the tools. The results of the projects I did myself will be at least

as good as a pro, most of the times better. Why? Because I have the

motivation to spend the time to make the result perfect. If a pro can do

the job better I don't do it myself.

It's true that pros generally have to be productive, and this leads to

"good enough"; but some do really care to do always (truly) excellent

work. It's a too rare and wonderful combination when skill and

quality combine that way.

The point about the phrase "Good enough is perfect" is that tolerances exist for a reason. One of the things that freshman engineering students have to learn is that when dimensioning a part, one doesn't put tolerances of "plus or minus 0.001" on everything. Instead, one analyzes how large the tolerances can be while still providing the desired functionality. If plus or minus 0.050" functions just as well, there's real detriment in shooting for anything tighter.


.... in cost competitive production of quantities.

I suppose in some cases, it's appearance that's at stake, not function. But IME, even then a really competent pro knows what will show and what won't.


I just meant there's a more rare wonderful synergy where a pro who
cares about excellence such that he has developed competency to the
point of "churning out" excellent work without even trying.

BTW, I had a long conversation this morning with the guy I mentioned earlier, the one who helped me on my basement room. He now lives about 900 miles away, so I haven't seen him for a while. But he talked about two recent jobs, doing interior work on the mansions of millionaires. His reputation is good enough for him to land work with very exacting clients.


And good enough is certainly good enough.

cuffs ! always too long ...cut to comfort....drape FLEXIBLE....comes in rolls...bill to buyer...

this is an analogy ?