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Ouch. This happened to me once



 
 
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  #81  
Old February 23rd 18, 03:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 3,967
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 12:50:45 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/22/2018 12:31 PM, sms wrote:
On 2/22/2018 8:06 AM, Joerg wrote:

That is correct. When neighbors hear about Green Valley Road and my
suggestion to join me for a ride the reactions are between "No" and
"Hell no!". When it's trucking the bikes to a trail head the answer is
often an enthusiastic "Yes". Trucking is something I personally do not
like, I prefer to ride from the garage and not use a car at all if
possible.


+1. While on occasion we do put the bikes on the car, we greatly prefer
not to do that. When it's unbearably hot in Silicon Valley we'll often
go ride our favorite 40 mile coastal ride from Seaside, through
Monterey, Pacific Grove, Pebble Beach, and Carmel, and we do drive there.

Those are the cold hard facts and sticking the head in the sand about
them isn't helpful. Yet that's what some folks do. Luckily few enough
that smart city leaders aren't influenced much by them.


LOL. Could you attend one of our City Council meetings and say that? We
are pretty lucky in my city. We have three people that tend to vote
based on facts when it comes to most issues, two engineers and one
attorney. It's sometimes hard when you hear emotional pleas that have no
basis in fact, especially when they come from your neighbors and from
people you've known for decades whose kids went to school with your
kids, etc..


Emotional pleas like "Riding a bike is so dangerous!" and "We need bike
lanes everywhere" and "You shouldn't ride any time, day or night, unless
you have super-bright lights on your bike"?


As an idle bit of information, to build a bike lane system in the U.S.
that is in proportion to that in The Netherlands, would require the
construction of 1,000,000 miles of bike path.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #82  
Old February 23rd 18, 03:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 3,967
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 12:53:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/22/2018 11:06 AM, Joerg wrote:


When neighbors hear about Green Valley Road and my
suggestion to join me for a ride the reactions are between "No" and
"Hell no!". When it's trucking the bikes to a trail head the answer is
often an enthusiastic "Yes". Trucking is something I personally do not
like, I prefer to ride from the garage and not use a car at all if
possible.

Those are the cold hard facts and sticking the head in the sand about
them isn't helpful. Yet that's what some folks do. Luckily few enough
that smart city leaders aren't influenced much by them.


Yet you try to refute the fact that riding bikes has been found time
after time, by study after study, to have benefits that GREATLY outweigh
its tiny risks. IOW you are literally safer riding a bike than not
riding a bike.

Do you give those facts to your neighbors? Of course not. Instead, you
perpetrate the "Danger! Danger!" myth every chance you get.


But Frank, given the dangers of riding a bicycle think how manly and
brave one appears when doing it. Why all the neighbors likely stand on
the edge of the road and applaud "the brave one".
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #83  
Old February 23rd 18, 04:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
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Posts: 1,137
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 11:06:15 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Well, it goes without saying that traffic policemen should be familiar
with the traffic regulations :-)


A little common sense would help, too.

Once I was walking home from the high school next door to where I
lived at the time, and stepped onto the shoulder of the road to get
around the windbreak. A deputy stopped and ordered me to cross a
state road twice to avoid the horrible, horrible danger of walking six
feet along the right side of the road.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


  #84  
Old February 23rd 18, 04:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 3,967
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 11:05:56 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/21/2018 11:06 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 21:16:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/21/2018 9:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:22:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/20/2018 10:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:11:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/20/2018 3:28 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-20 10:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 10:54:03 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:


Do you really believe everything should be done by a nanny state or some
"organization"?

Not _everything_. But should "organizations" teach proper use of the
road? YES!

We have "organizations" called schools that teach things like the rules
of Dodge Ball. Why should they not teach people the rules of cycling
in traffic?


There is only so much time a school has and especially leftist states
fill that with so much mandatory junk that we should rather concentrate
on math, reading and stuff. Our kids already trail much of the developed
world there.

But what - we should not bother to teach them about operating vehicles
properly in traffic?


Good Lord! Way back in the dim and distant past when I was in High
School the School System opted for a Driver's Training course and even
purchased a "dual control" auto, a Chevy I believe, for the course.

Is it to be supposed that in this high tech present learning how to
drive is no longer necessary?

I think that public school driver's education classes are far less
common than they used to be. I took such a class as a summer option, but
that was over 50 years ago. AFAIK it's not available around here at all.
It's been replaced by for-profit driving schools and/or online classes.

And those ignore interactions with bicyclists. I know a smart and
dedicated bike advocate who has worked a long time trying to influence
them to teach respect for cyclists, care when passing cyclists, etc.
She's also lobbied to get appropriate questions into the official
driver's license exams. She's been repeatedly rebuffed, but she keeps
trying.

I have the feeling that is wrong. Why "respect for bicycles"? Are they
somehow different then other slow moving "vehicles" (note the legal
definition). There are already sufficient highway rules and
regulations. Just enforce them.

I think a large part of the problem is ignorance. I'm just back from a
bike club meeting where one friend was telling me about a motorist
yelling "You're not supposed to be on the road."

Sure, enforcement helps. But cops can intercept only a tiny fraction of
people who violate laws. And it's even worse because a lot of cops are
ignorant about bike laws.

We need education on these issues, delivered in many ways.


Well, it goes without saying that traffic policemen should be familiar
with the traffic regulations :-)

But your friend's comment rather emphasis the lack of knowledge
exhibited by many motorists. For example, In New Hampshire someone
riding a horse has the same rights as someone driving a car. My guess
is that a very large percent of the driving public doesn't know that.

Enforcement doesn't have to catch all the evil doers all it has to do
is catch enough of them that word gets round - "Hey, don't speed on
Downer Road, they'll catch you and the fine is awful."

But "Bike Laws"? As far as I've read there are only one or two
specific bicycle laws as most states simply state that they are
"vehicles" with all the rights of any vehicle.

I can't comment on the U.S. but here I see bicyclists breaking both
the traffic laws and what might be termed the laws of common sense
almost daily. Perhaps cyclists also need to study up on what's right
and what's wrong.


Cyclists over there probably need to study up. Cyclists around here
certainly do. But just saying "You need to study" almost never works.
Almost everyone starts out with the assumption "I already know what I'm
doing." And if someone says "No you don't," the reaction is almost never
"Hmm, I need to study."


I think it is a little deeper then just "study". I'm fairly sure, for
instance, that bicyclists both here and there understand what a red
traffic light or a big sign marked "STOP" mean. Yet I see bicyclists
ignoring them and read here about Usians doing the same thing.

In fact there seems to be a rather laissez-faire attitude exhibited by
many (most?) bicyclists, a sort of "now I'm on my bike I can do
anything I want". After all it must be something that anyone can do.
No requirement for training, licensing or anything else. Just buy a
bike and get on GO!


A few years back, an administrator in a local health department got a
small grant, enough to pay for two billboards. The billboards said
something like "Ride your bike to work" and in somewhat smaller font,
"Ride _with_ traffic, use lights at night, obey all traffic laws" or
something like that. I think that effort was a tiny step in the right
direction.



Traffic laws? Weren't any of them when I started riding a bike. Hows
come we gotta have them now?
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #85  
Old February 23rd 18, 03:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,431
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2018-02-22 19:40, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 12:53:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/22/2018 11:06 AM, Joerg wrote:


When neighbors hear about Green Valley Road and my
suggestion to join me for a ride the reactions are between "No" and
"Hell no!". When it's trucking the bikes to a trail head the answer is
often an enthusiastic "Yes". Trucking is something I personally do not
like, I prefer to ride from the garage and not use a car at all if
possible.

Those are the cold hard facts and sticking the head in the sand about
them isn't helpful. Yet that's what some folks do. Luckily few enough
that smart city leaders aren't influenced much by them.


Yet you try to refute the fact that riding bikes has been found time
after time, by study after study, to have benefits that GREATLY outweigh
its tiny risks. IOW you are literally safer riding a bike than not
riding a bike.

Do you give those facts to your neighbors? Of course not. Instead, you
perpetrate the "Danger! Danger!" myth every chance you get.



Nonsense. I have written many times that I tell them that Green Valley
Road is quite safe because it has a wide enough shoulder along most of
it. However, they won't have any of that. They absolutely refuse to ride
there. Many of them because they remember gruesome accidents on that
road such as a fatal one where a cyclist got rear-ended at full speed.


But Frank, given the dangers of riding a bicycle think how manly and
brave one appears when doing it. Why all the neighbors likely stand on
the edge of the road and applaud "the brave one".



No kidding, that is indeed the case. Not along the road though. A few
weeks ago I stopped at my usual pub. This time it was unusually crowded.
Someone asked "Who rides that vintage bike out there?" ... "That's me"
.... "So how far do you still have to go?" ... "Cameron Park, only about
7mi" ... "But not on Green Valley Road, right?" ... "Sure, otherwise I
would be late" ... Almost everyone turned around and looked at me in
disbelief. Then came comments like that I must be a fearless dude and so
on. I told them it's not so bad, except it's almost all uphill. They
insisted that I must be a tough, no matter how much I emphasized that
it's not a big deal.

I have personally met hardcore mountain bikers who do serious jumps that
I'd never attempt yet they said they'd never ever ride Green Valley
Road. They truck their bikes to the trail head.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #86  
Old February 23rd 18, 05:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 3,310
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 7:44:39 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-22 19:40, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 12:53:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/22/2018 11:06 AM, Joerg wrote:


When neighbors hear about Green Valley Road and my
suggestion to join me for a ride the reactions are between "No" and
"Hell no!". When it's trucking the bikes to a trail head the answer is
often an enthusiastic "Yes". Trucking is something I personally do not
like, I prefer to ride from the garage and not use a car at all if
possible.

Those are the cold hard facts and sticking the head in the sand about
them isn't helpful. Yet that's what some folks do. Luckily few enough
that smart city leaders aren't influenced much by them.

Yet you try to refute the fact that riding bikes has been found time
after time, by study after study, to have benefits that GREATLY outweigh
its tiny risks. IOW you are literally safer riding a bike than not
riding a bike.

Do you give those facts to your neighbors? Of course not. Instead, you
perpetrate the "Danger! Danger!" myth every chance you get.



Nonsense. I have written many times that I tell them that Green Valley
Road is quite safe because it has a wide enough shoulder along most of
it. However, they won't have any of that. They absolutely refuse to ride
there. Many of them because they remember gruesome accidents on that
road such as a fatal one where a cyclist got rear-ended at full speed.


But Frank, given the dangers of riding a bicycle think how manly and
brave one appears when doing it. Why all the neighbors likely stand on
the edge of the road and applaud "the brave one".



No kidding, that is indeed the case. Not along the road though. A few
weeks ago I stopped at my usual pub. This time it was unusually crowded.
Someone asked "Who rides that vintage bike out there?" ... "That's me"
... "So how far do you still have to go?" ... "Cameron Park, only about
7mi" ... "But not on Green Valley Road, right?" ... "Sure, otherwise I
would be late" ... Almost everyone turned around and looked at me in
disbelief. Then came comments like that I must be a fearless dude and so


You drink with a bunch of rubes. Go to a real bike bar, and they won't give a sh** where you ride. https://companyweek.com/media/HUB_interior.jpg

Someone has died on my commute route every year for the last six years -- motorist, pedestrian or cyclist or some combination thereof. Even a frozen bum. Riding in this morning over ice-flows and errant left-over snow-heaps, I thought I was going to die (because I switched back to my usual commuter semi-slicks), but I turned on my flasher and DRL, and thereby avoided all issues with traction, traffic and weather. It was like a warm breeze blowing through my hair. I got to work, and everyone said, "oh my God, you rode in! You are such an awesome individual!" Actually, nobody said anything -- maybe some yawns.

Your life is so vivid with all the mountain lions and dangerous roads. You should get a reality TV show like Bear Grylls. "Death Road Cyclist!" On this episode, Joerg rides down the road and gets some beer. Patrons of the tavern are amazed. Roll credits.

-- Jay Beattie.




  #87  
Old February 23rd 18, 06:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Posts: 6,823
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:21:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html

(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery
turned in. They replaced his bike.)


How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision!

In the U.S. it would have been mirror image, so a right hook. Over
there, it's a left hook. Either way, it's a common collision.

And this illustrates the weirdness of the bike lane concept. Under
what circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring lane be placed
between the curb and a lane where turns are permitted? And when would
a motorist think it's safe to "undertake" like that when a vehicle has
its turn signal blinking?


It's an interesting question. The legalities of course hinge on the
specifics of the UK traffic laws and I have no idea what they are. For
that matter, I don't know what the law says about this in Minnesota. As
a cyclist, if I was in that situation I would stop and give way to the
car- even if it was my right of way, in a collision the car would win.
Sometimes drivers will signal to me that they have seen me and
to proceed, but I never assume they've seen me otherwise.

There is a discussion locally about pedestrian safety. So far this
year, some 30 pedestrians have been hit by vehicles in St. Paul. A few
years ago a law was passed giving pedestrians the right of way at all
intersections except where controlled by a stoplight and walk signal as
that governs right of way in those intersections. However, drivers and
pedestrians are getting worse at it rather than better over time!
between 1/1 - 2/11/16 there were 19 car-ped collisions and 2 car-bike
collisions in St. Paul; the same period in 2017 it was 25 and 0; this
year it as been 30 and 2. One pedestrian fatality and 27 injured this
year, no bicyclist fatalities and two with injuries.

https://www.stpaul.gov/departments/p...a-city-st-paul

  #88  
Old February 23rd 18, 06:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Posts: 6,823
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:42:11 -0800, Joerg
wrote:
Maybe the guy didn't think a MTB could be doing north of 20mph.


I think many drivers assume cyclists are going slowly and don't bother
to actually look and judge the speed. Unless they are in the lycra
clown suit, head down and obviously working hard.
  #89  
Old February 23rd 18, 07:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,179
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2/23/2018 1:29 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:21:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html

(I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery
turned in. They replaced his bike.)


How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision!

In the U.S. it would have been mirror image, so a right hook. Over
there, it's a left hook. Either way, it's a common collision.

And this illustrates the weirdness of the bike lane concept. Under
what circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring lane be placed
between the curb and a lane where turns are permitted? And when would
a motorist think it's safe to "undertake" like that when a vehicle has
its turn signal blinking?


It's an interesting question. The legalities of course hinge on the
specifics of the UK traffic laws and I have no idea what they are. For
that matter, I don't know what the law says about this in Minnesota. As
a cyclist, if I was in that situation I would stop and give way to the
car- even if it was my right of way, in a collision the car would win.
Sometimes drivers will signal to me that they have seen me and
to proceed, but I never assume they've seen me otherwise.

There is a discussion locally about pedestrian safety. So far this
year, some 30 pedestrians have been hit by vehicles in St. Paul. A few
years ago a law was passed giving pedestrians the right of way at all
intersections except where controlled by a stoplight and walk signal as
that governs right of way in those intersections. However, drivers and
pedestrians are getting worse at it rather than better over time!
between 1/1 - 2/11/16 there were 19 car-ped collisions and 2 car-bike
collisions in St. Paul; the same period in 2017 it was 25 and 0; this
year it as been 30 and 2. One pedestrian fatality and 27 injured this
year, no bicyclist fatalities and two with injuries.

https://www.stpaul.gov/departments/p...a-city-st-paul


Yes, that's how the numbers usually trend. But somehow people fixate on
bicycling as being dangerous. Go figure.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #90  
Old February 23rd 18, 08:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,431
Default Ouch. This happened to me once

On 2018-02-23 09:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 7:44:39 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-22 19:40, John B. wrote:


[...]

But Frank, given the dangers of riding a bicycle think how manly
and brave one appears when doing it. Why all the neighbors likely
stand on the edge of the road and applaud "the brave one".



No kidding, that is indeed the case. Not along the road though. A
few weeks ago I stopped at my usual pub. This time it was unusually
crowded. Someone asked "Who rides that vintage bike out there?" ...
"That's me" ... "So how far do you still have to go?" ... "Cameron
Park, only about 7mi" ... "But not on Green Valley Road, right?"
... "Sure, otherwise I would be late" ... Almost everyone turned
around and looked at me in disbelief. Then came comments like that
I must be a fearless dude and so


You drink with a bunch of rubes. Go to a real bike bar, and they
won't give a sh** where you ride.
https://companyweek.com/media/HUB_interior.jpg


That pub _is_ a hangout for MTB riders. On dirt they ride hard, much
harder than I do. Yet most won't ride on Green Valley Road.

It's unusual that riders congregate there at times and it might be
because the owner is a serious MTB rider. Plus two nice singletrack
routes start there. The other pubs in El Dorado Hills and in our village
have only few cyclists visiting them. As I mentioned before cyclists
around here prefer bike infrastructure which is why cyclists rather hang
out at pubs in Folsom and elsewhere along the American River bike path.

I don't think that or similar roads are particularly dangerous as long
as they have a reasonable shoulder most of the way. Unfortunately most
people interested in cycling do not think that way and that's what I
wanted to convey here. A tree stump coming at them at 25mph is something
they think they can stomach, a huge Diesel truck at 60mph from behind isn't.

The cyclist traffic on that road has increased probably ten-fold since
they widened the shoulders and put in a bike lane in some segments.
Build it and they come? Yes, they do. That was nice to see but compared
to your area the number is miniscule. Also, those are mostly the more
hardcore sports riders who tend not to drink alcohol and sometimes not
even coffee. The more casual riders and the more utilitarian riders shun
such roads. That's the vast majority.

All I am doing here is relaying what other cylists and potential
cyclists told me, not what I think.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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