click in pedals, and grease vs. anti-sieze

Last fall I replaced the cranks and pedals on my everyday bike (with LX
cranks and bottom bracket, and pedals like
these:http://www.veloplus.ch/AlleProdukte/...vonWellgo.aspx
). The pedals are obviously not the most expensive, but I still expected
them to be O.K. for everyday use. I have always used regular grease when
assembling such things, but this time, at the suggestion of the
salesman, used anti-sieze paste. Recently the pedals began to "click"
when pedaling hard. Loosening and retightening them didn't help. Finally
I applied grease to the threads, and now the clicking has stopped.

This leads me to wonder how much play there could have been in the
connection between crank and pedal axle. There was nothing detectable
"by hand", there was no damage to the threads, and the axle threads
engaged perfectly fine when screwing the pedals onto the cranks. Is it
reasonable that undamaged threads could still have enough play to give a
slight movement (and click)? Is the difference between grease vs.
anti-sieze paste just a matter of how much was applied?

I am reminded of Jobst Brandt's argument that the basic design of the
pedal-crank connection is faulty. He argued for a conical depression on
the crank, and a corresponding conical outcropping on the pedal nut,
similar to what is used for bolting on wheels of cars and trucks.

Ned

On Friday, April 18, 2014 12:31:54 PM UTC-7, Ned Mantei wrote:
Last fall I replaced the cranks and pedals on my everyday bike (with LX

cranks and bottom bracket, and pedals like

these:http://www.veloplus.ch/AlleProdukte/...vonWellgo.aspx

). The pedals are obviously not the most expensive, but I still expected

them to be O.K. for everyday use. I have always used regular grease when

assembling such things, but this time, at the suggestion of the

salesman, used anti-sieze paste. Recently the pedals began to "click"

when pedaling hard. Loosening and retightening them didn't help. Finally

I applied grease to the threads, and now the clicking has stopped.



This leads me to wonder how much play there could have been in the

connection between crank and pedal axle. There was nothing detectable

"by hand", there was no damage to the threads, and the axle threads

engaged perfectly fine when screwing the pedals onto the cranks. Is it

reasonable that undamaged threads could still have enough play to give a

slight movement (and click)? Is the difference between grease vs.

anti-sieze paste just a matter of how much was applied?



I am reminded of Jobst Brandt's argument that the basic design of the

pedal-crank connection is faulty. He argued for a conical depression on

the crank, and a corresponding conical outcropping on the pedal nut,

similar to what is used for bolting on wheels of cars and trucks.

Jobst's approach was driven by the fact that he used Campy NR cranks that were notoriously prone to failure due to cracks propagating from the pedal eye that were either caused or worsened by gouging from the pedal spindle. I have not heard of that problem with modern cranks and pedals. Jobst switched to an 80's DA crank with his special kludge, so he never had the opportunity to determine whether that crank would have broken if it was not modified. I had no problems with the same crank, but I did break four or five NR cranks.

Pedals can creak or click. There is slop in the interface, but not that much. The clicking is usually solved with a little grease and re-tightening. I've used Teflon tape once or twice.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 4/18/2014 2:31 PM, Ned Mantei wrote:
Last fall I replaced the cranks and pedals on my everyday
bike (with LX cranks and bottom bracket, and pedals like
these:http://www.veloplus.ch/AlleProdukte/...vonWellgo.aspx
). The pedals are obviously not the most expensive, but I
still expected them to be O.K. for everyday use. I have
always used regular grease when assembling such things, but
this time, at the suggestion of the salesman, used
anti-sieze paste. Recently the pedals began to "click" when
pedaling hard. Loosening and retightening them didn't help.
Finally I applied grease to the threads, and now the
clicking has stopped.

This leads me to wonder how much play there could have been
in the connection between crank and pedal axle. There was
nothing detectable "by hand", there was no damage to the
threads, and the axle threads engaged perfectly fine when
screwing the pedals onto the cranks. Is it reasonable that
undamaged threads could still have enough play to give a
slight movement (and click)? Is the difference between
grease vs. anti-sieze paste just a matter of how much was
applied?

I am reminded of Jobst Brandt's argument that the basic
design of the pedal-crank connection is faulty. He argued
for a conical depression on the crank, and a corresponding
conical outcropping on the pedal nut, similar to what is
used for bolting on wheels of cars and trucks.

I follow your analysis and yes, we also clean then grease
pedal threads.

That said, when you unscrewed them, were they properly
torqued? I agree most of the antisieze paste products out
there would be OK in this application so I'm doubtful that's
the cause.

When out of the crank, did the spindles turn freely? A
dirty or tight bearing would loosen even more readily than
the usual effects of precession.

Are you using steel pedal washers? Those are amazingly
effective with damaged or chronically troublesome pedal
threads. Gives the spindle a bigger seat against the crank.
Not as ideally as Jobst's conical interface but better.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, April 18, 2014 8:31:54 PM UTC+1, Ned Mantei wrote:
Last fall I replaced the cranks and pedals on my everyday bike (with LX

cranks and bottom bracket, and pedals like

these:http://www.veloplus.ch/AlleProdukte/...vonWellgo.aspx

). The pedals are obviously not the most expensive, but I still expected

them to be O.K. for everyday use. I have always used regular grease when

assembling such things, but this time, at the suggestion of the

salesman, used anti-sieze paste. Recently the pedals began to "click"

when pedaling hard. Loosening and retightening them didn't help. Finally

I applied grease to the threads, and now the clicking has stopped.



This leads me to wonder how much play there could have been in the

connection between crank and pedal axle. There was nothing detectable

"by hand", there was no damage to the threads, and the axle threads

engaged perfectly fine when screwing the pedals onto the cranks. Is it

reasonable that undamaged threads could still have enough play to give a

slight movement (and click)? Is the difference between grease vs.

anti-sieze paste just a matter of how much was applied?



I am reminded of Jobst Brandt's argument that the basic design of the

pedal-crank connection is faulty. He argued for a conical depression on

the crank, and a corresponding conical outcropping on the pedal nut,

similar to what is used for bolting on wheels of cars and trucks.



Ned

Many pedal axles will click in use if not fully torqued up. It seems possible that the anti seize, being a bit less compressible than grease, prevented proper fastening, and when you substituted the grease, the pedals were properly fastened in.

Andre Jute

new pedals are inspected for grease...repacked if possible...maybe disassembled n repacked with silicone grease after cleaning the perto off.

retorques to factory specs...new pedals are prob torqued too tight.

pedal and crank threads are cleaned with CHOH then assembled with RED LOCTITE thin on the pedal shaft. The washer 's a fine idea but grease is no no nowhere. Grease absolves or evaporates or worser carries water straight from the refinery....auto greases are suspension bound where water is always present anyway or into hi temp applications where water is borne away from operating temps.

Not so with cycle components. RED LOCTITE. torqued tight Once for torque then squeeze again for surenesss. Cover the butt end inside crank with a thin coat of boiled linseed. Careful when you boil it.

How to disassemble ? heat with propane torch both sides with an open end wrench gripped by a large vise grips on the non contact end. heat place wrench, step down on pedal.

If I hear a click I order new pedals then find time to disassemble the clickers for damage.

On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 21:31:54 +0200, Ned Mantei
wrote:

Last fall I replaced the cranks and pedals on my everyday bike (with LX
cranks and bottom bracket, and pedals like
these:http://www.veloplus.ch/AlleProdukte/...vonWellgo.aspx
). The pedals are obviously not the most expensive, but I still expected
them to be O.K. for everyday use. I have always used regular grease when
assembling such things, but this time, at the suggestion of the
salesman, used anti-sieze paste. Recently the pedals began to "click"
when pedaling hard. Loosening and retightening them didn't help. Finally
I applied grease to the threads, and now the clicking has stopped.

This leads me to wonder how much play there could have been in the
connection between crank and pedal axle. There was nothing detectable
"by hand", there was no damage to the threads, and the axle threads
engaged perfectly fine when screwing the pedals onto the cranks. Is it
reasonable that undamaged threads could still have enough play to give a
slight movement (and click)? Is the difference between grease vs.
anti-sieze paste just a matter of how much was applied?

I am reminded of Jobst Brandt's argument that the basic design of the
pedal-crank connection is faulty. He argued for a conical depression on
the crank, and a corresponding conical outcropping on the pedal nut,
similar to what is used for bolting on wheels of cars and trucks.

Ned

Firstly, look at the surface of the crank around the hole that the
pedals screw into. If there is a fretted circle showing actual wear on
the crank, then it is probably that the pedal axle did move.
But if only a discolored circle showing that the pedal was tightened
well, then not.

By the way, the most frequent problem with the one piece steel
"Ashtabula" crank is the pedal axle rusts solidly into the crank and
resisting nobly any efforts to remove it :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

if I remember, Jobst would not address the Loctite solution. He may have considered Shimano's adoption of cone machining a gran cooo...

On 18/04/14 23:25, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/18/2014 2:31 PM, Ned Mantei wrote:
Last fall I replaced the cranks and pedals on my everyday
bike (with LX cranks and bottom bracket, and pedals like
these:http://www.veloplus.ch/AlleProdukte/...vonWellgo.aspx

). The pedals are obviously not the most expensive, but I
still expected them to be O.K. for everyday use. I have
always used regular grease when assembling such things, but
this time, at the suggestion of the salesman, used
anti-sieze paste. Recently the pedals began to "click" when
pedaling hard. Loosening and retightening them didn't help.
Finally I applied grease to the threads, and now the
clicking has stopped.

This leads me to wonder how much play there could have been
in the connection between crank and pedal axle. There was
nothing detectable "by hand", there was no damage to the
threads, and the axle threads engaged perfectly fine when
screwing the pedals onto the cranks. Is it reasonable that
undamaged threads could still have enough play to give a
slight movement (and click)? Is the difference between
grease vs. anti-sieze paste just a matter of how much was
applied?

I am reminded of Jobst Brandt's argument that the basic
design of the pedal-crank connection is faulty. He argued
for a conical depression on the crank, and a corresponding
conical outcropping on the pedal nut, similar to what is
used for bolting on wheels of cars and trucks.

I follow your analysis and yes, we also clean then grease pedal threads.

That said, when you unscrewed them, were they properly torqued? I agree
most of the antisieze paste products out there would be OK in this
application so I'm doubtful that's the cause.

When out of the crank, did the spindles turn freely? A dirty or tight
bearing would loosen even more readily than the usual effects of
precession.

Are you using steel pedal washers? Those are amazingly effective with
damaged or chronically troublesome pedal threads. Gives the spindle a
bigger seat against the crank. Not as ideally as Jobst's conical
interface but better.



The pedals were properly torqued (in the sense that it took quite an
effort to begin unscrewing them), and the pedals turn freely. I didn't
use pedal washers, but now that the noise is gone I plan to leave things
as they are.

From other comments my guess is that maybe I didn't use enough
antisieze, so that smearing on lots of grease was more effective.

Thanks to you and to others who answered.

Ned

On 4/18/2014 10:45 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 21:31:54 +0200, Ned Mantei
wrote:

Last fall I replaced the cranks and pedals on my everyday bike (with LX
cranks and bottom bracket, and pedals like
these:http://www.veloplus.ch/AlleProdukte/...vonWellgo.aspx
). The pedals are obviously not the most expensive, but I still expected
them to be O.K. for everyday use. I have always used regular grease when
assembling such things, but this time, at the suggestion of the
salesman, used anti-sieze paste. Recently the pedals began to "click"
when pedaling hard. Loosening and retightening them didn't help. Finally
I applied grease to the threads, and now the clicking has stopped.

This leads me to wonder how much play there could have been in the
connection between crank and pedal axle. There was nothing detectable
"by hand", there was no damage to the threads, and the axle threads
engaged perfectly fine when screwing the pedals onto the cranks. Is it
reasonable that undamaged threads could still have enough play to give a
slight movement (and click)? Is the difference between grease vs.
anti-sieze paste just a matter of how much was applied?

I am reminded of Jobst Brandt's argument that the basic design of the
pedal-crank connection is faulty. He argued for a conical depression on
the crank, and a corresponding conical outcropping on the pedal nut,
similar to what is used for bolting on wheels of cars and trucks.

Ned

Firstly, look at the surface of the crank around the hole that the
pedals screw into. If there is a fretted circle showing actual wear on
the crank, then it is probably that the pedal axle did move.
But if only a discolored circle showing that the pedal was tightened
well, then not.

By the way, the most frequent problem with the one piece steel
"Ashtabula" crank is the pedal axle rusts solidly into the crank and
resisting nobly any efforts to remove it :-)



Heat the very end of the crank (thinnest section) which will
expand faster than the spindle. Unscrew while red hot, works
every time.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

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