Cartridge bearings

On 5/23/2016 5:25 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2016 22:54:56 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Mon, 23 May 2016 08:48:32 +0700, John B
wrote:

I used to read Brandt's posts, but sometimes I thought he got carried
away with nomenclature. The "chain stretch" is an example. No, the
chain does not stretch, as in elastic band, but it does get longer, so
what do we say?

We say what it is: chain wear. It's simple enough, why obfuscate it?

Of course it is chain wear. But frankly few people actually are
completely descriptive in speaking. We say "bike" for bicycles and
motorcycles. Some people say "cool" meaning "calm self-control
(especially in trying circumstances) or unemotional" and others mean
it isn't warm. We say "post" meaning a stake in the ground or the
mail. And, and, and...

I think that issues arise when such shortcut verbiage leads to
misunderstanding of the phenomena, and to weird proposals for
"improvements."

Someone who really believes chains stretch (in the sense of metal
yielding and elongating) may propose chains with thicker side plates to
resist the "stretch" that comes from climbing mountains. That would, of
course, be ineffective.

And IIRC, there have been posters in the past who were firmly convinced
that their manly quads were capable of literally and permanently
stretching chain. There are still, I believe, people who think their
grip on the brake lever permanently stretch their brake cables.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/23/2016 9:16 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
"Ian Field" considered Sun, 22 May
2016 20:17:08 +0100 the perfect time to write:


Around the 80s or 90s, aftermarket taper roller headset bearings were all
the rage for motorcycles.

At the time, they were heavily advertised as the must have accesory.

And they were a good, inexpensive and long lasting improvement, too -
so much so that most production motorcycles now use them from the
factory.

It's been my contention for a long time that a properly designed
bicycle fork should have the flexibility in it's legs, not the
steerer, and that if this is the case (as it used to be on the
delicately curved and tapered fork legs of yore) taper rollers are
equally valuable on pedal cycles.

Interesting. Our 1986 Cannondale touring bikes came with Stronglite A-9
roller bearing headsets. Those bikes are not light by today's
standards. They have massively rigid frame tubes, and ours has fairly
thin-looking steel forks. I doubt they tried to make the steerer tube
very thin, so perhaps the fork flex is largely confined to the blades.

The A-9 on my bike lasted for decades before I had to replace the lower
roller bearing's races. The replacement races are still fine. My
wife's (with far fewer miles) still has the original parts, IIRC.
Perhaps the long life is due in part to the rigidity of the frame and
steerer tube.

I guess the A-9 is out of production now. Maybe I should search out
some NOS repair bits before they vanish.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2016-05-22 19:26, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2016 08:35:56 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-21 23:14, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:26:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-21 16:13, John B. wrote:

I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description said
"HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing".

I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings. Is
there such a thing and can anyone point me to one?


Voila:

http://www.amazon.com/Origin8-Pro-Th.../dp/B002J97EGS

Interesting. I had never seen one.


I was thinking about replacing my miserable Shimano 600 contraption with
one of these. Mine always shakes loose on rough roads.

I believe if I had that problem I would (1) buy a new quality head
set, and (2) have the top and bottom of the head tube reamed and faced
to ensure that the ends were exactly at right angle to the tube and
flat. And, that the head set races were properly installed using a
press of some sort. Not a BFH. (BFH's work but require more skill to
achieve a perfect installation)


I don't mind a little slack in the steerer as long as the thing doesn't
come all the way loose on a rough stretch.


Another thing, there is play in the steer tube threads and after the
threaded race is adjusted perfectly tightening lock nut will likely
change things.


Yes, but by know I just jam it all down. I don't want to fuss around
with it but ride :-)


I might comment that I have a Shimano 600 head set on one of my bikes
that has never come loose :-)


It it this type with the knurled nuts?

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/coronade...Headset_02.JPG

How hard do you torque down the top nut? Mine works ok on regular roads
but it does come loose on gravel roads and dilapidated old highways.
Also during even the shortest offroad stretch if sufficiently gnarly. I
use thick leather plus vise grips to tighten it and give it a lot of
muscle. Maybe I should add a pipe extension for even more torque.

I've even thought about filing down the nuts to get rid of this
nonsensical knurl so I can use regular wrenches.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-05-22 17:17, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/22/2016 6:18 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-05-22 14:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/22/2016 11:40 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-05-22 07:26, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 11:15:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:47:01 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:13:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description
said "HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing".

I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings.
Is there such a thing and can anyone point me to one?


Basically every 1" Shimano road headset after what, about 1990?
Sir should know.

-- Jay Beattie

Oh! Modern Bikes? I've never owned one :-) -- cheers,

John B.

Jobst noted that Shimano licensed its angular-contact cartridge
bearing from Wilderness Trail, which I guess was a tribute to that
company. http://yarchive.net/bike/head_bearing.html


Interesting. I wonder why Jobst dismissed the notion of "my chain
stretched from climbing steep hills". It's something I clearly
experienced in Europe. When riding flatlands a chain could easily last
3000mi. When I rode in the hills of East Belgium I was lucky if I got
2000mi. Lots of mashing.

Jobst was an engineer who clearly understood thing like forces,
stresses, yield strength, etc. Even a dim understanding of those
principles allows one to understand you're not stretching the metal of
the chain.


Where did I say that?


Jobst was also excellent at understanding detailed interactions of
various mechanical components, and he was better than most engineers at
tribology. That allowed him to understand what many people call chain
"stretch."


So how do you explain the differences noticed above? Voodoo?
Extraterrestrial influence? Belgian beer?

Hint: These were always the same chains. I bought a large stack of them
in a bulk deal.

No voodoo necessary. Look into the effect of normal load on friction
and wear. Perhaps you could start with a physics book, then progress to
a book on the design of machine elements.


Ah, you are beginning to find out the answer yourself. Ask yourself
this: Why is it that the chain on a one-cylinder offroad motorcycle
ridden on paved roads wears faster if the motorcycle isn't fitted with a
rubber-buffered sprocket assembly?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-05-22 19:35, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2016 08:40:26 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-22 07:26, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 11:15:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:47:01 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:13:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description
said "HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing".

I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings.
Is there such a thing and can anyone point me to one?


Basically every 1" Shimano road headset after what, about 1990?
Sir should know.

-- Jay Beattie

Oh! Modern Bikes? I've never owned one :-) -- cheers,

John B.

Jobst noted that Shimano licensed its angular-contact cartridge
bearing from Wilderness Trail, which I guess was a tribute to that
company. http://yarchive.net/bike/head_bearing.html


Interesting. I wonder why Jobst dismissed the notion of "my chain
stretched from climbing steep hills". It's something I clearly
experienced in Europe. When riding flatlands a chain could easily last
3000mi. When I rode in the hills of East Belgium I was lucky if I got
2000mi. Lots of mashing.

It is a matter of nomenclature. A chain doesn't stretch the way a
rubber band stretches. A chain elongates due to wear. But in
colloquial English the terms stretch and elongate are frequently used
interchangeably.

It might be said that when something stretches it does elongate but
when something elongates it doesn't necessarily stretch.


The effect is elongation but, of course, the "stretch" is all in the
pins. They seem to wear down faster when there is regular uphill mashing
versus rides where one applies constant power most of the time.

It's the same with cars. Front wheel drive cars suffer in their
universal joints worse if drivers "step on it" in curves versus gentle
riders. At least it used to be like that. Those joints were kind of
smallish compared to the big one in the drive shaft on a rear wheel
driven car. I am a gentle rider but still had to replace a worn joint in
my Citroen 2CV when I was young.


(Rather like, "a Beetle is always a bug, but a bug is not always a
beetle :-)


At Volkswagen it is :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 8:15:12 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/23/2016 9:16 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
"Ian Field" considered Sun, 22 May
2016 20:17:08 +0100 the perfect time to write:


Around the 80s or 90s, aftermarket taper roller headset bearings were all
the rage for motorcycles.

At the time, they were heavily advertised as the must have accesory.

And they were a good, inexpensive and long lasting improvement, too -
so much so that most production motorcycles now use them from the
factory.

It's been my contention for a long time that a properly designed
bicycle fork should have the flexibility in it's legs, not the
steerer, and that if this is the case (as it used to be on the
delicately curved and tapered fork legs of yore) taper rollers are
equally valuable on pedal cycles.

Interesting. Our 1986 Cannondale touring bikes came with Stronglite A-9
roller bearing headsets. Those bikes are not light by today's
standards. They have massively rigid frame tubes, and ours has fairly
thin-looking steel forks. I doubt they tried to make the steerer tube
very thin, so perhaps the fork flex is largely confined to the blades.

The A-9 on my bike lasted for decades before I had to replace the lower
roller bearing's races. The replacement races are still fine. My
wife's (with far fewer miles) still has the original parts, IIRC.
Perhaps the long life is due in part to the rigidity of the frame and
steerer tube.

I guess the A-9 is out of production now. Maybe I should search out
some NOS repair bits before they vanish.

The A-9 on my T1000 died for reasons I don't recall. I threw in a Deore of the day, and it lasted until I went to a 1" threadless (changed the fork) and then gave the frame away.

The current angle contact bearings on my fleet are just fine, and I can't remember the last time I replaced a failed bearing or race. I put in a new headset on my commuter, but that's because the OE headset was cheap (caged open bearing hybrid integrated design) and poorly sealed and prone to creaking with lots of wet weather riding -- and 15 or more years old. A simple angle contact bearing headset like the threaded Ultegra (and the many, many other similar headsets) seems to be more than adequate for the job.

-- Jay Beattie.

"jbeattie" wrote in message
...
On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 8:15:12 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/23/2016 9:16 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
"Ian Field" considered Sun, 22 May
2016 20:17:08 +0100 the perfect time to write:


Around the 80s or 90s, aftermarket taper roller headset bearings were
all
the rage for motorcycles.

At the time, they were heavily advertised as the must have accesory.

And they were a good, inexpensive and long lasting improvement, too -
so much so that most production motorcycles now use them from the
factory.

It's been my contention for a long time that a properly designed
bicycle fork should have the flexibility in it's legs, not the
steerer, and that if this is the case (as it used to be on the
delicately curved and tapered fork legs of yore) taper rollers are
equally valuable on pedal cycles.

Interesting. Our 1986 Cannondale touring bikes came with Stronglite A-9
roller bearing headsets. Those bikes are not light by today's
standards. They have massively rigid frame tubes, and ours has fairly
thin-looking steel forks. I doubt they tried to make the steerer tube
very thin, so perhaps the fork flex is largely confined to the blades.

The A-9 on my bike lasted for decades before I had to replace the lower
roller bearing's races. The replacement races are still fine. My
wife's (with far fewer miles) still has the original parts, IIRC.
Perhaps the long life is due in part to the rigidity of the frame and
steerer tube.

I guess the A-9 is out of production now. Maybe I should search out
some NOS repair bits before they vanish.

The A-9 on my T1000 died for reasons I don't recall. I threw in a Deore
of the day, and it lasted until I went to a 1" threadless (changed the
fork) and then gave the frame away.

The current angle contact bearings on my fleet are just fine, and I can't
remember the last time I replaced a failed bearing or race.

The only headset bearings I ever had trouble with were on very old salvaged
bikes that had been left in the weather long enough to wash the grease out.

Those usually had so much else wrong that I was too busy patching it up
until something less derelict came along.

On 24/05/16 02:05, Joerg wrote:


The effect is elongation but, of course, the "stretch" is all in the
pins. They seem to wear down faster when there is regular uphill mashing
versus rides where one applies constant power most of the time.


If you change to a smaller chain ring to ride up a steep hill, the
leverage you have over the chain is significantly increased, hence chain
tension is significantly increased, and wear.

--
JS

On 2016-05-23 15:10, James wrote:
On 24/05/16 02:05, Joerg wrote:


The effect is elongation but, of course, the "stretch" is all in the
pins. They seem to wear down faster when there is regular uphill mashing
versus rides where one applies constant power most of the time.


If you change to a smaller chain ring to ride up a steep hill, the
leverage you have over the chain is significantly increased, hence chain
tension is significantly increased, and wear.


I know. Similar when standing in the pedals a lot which is what I had to
do on account of 42T being the smallest chain ring. I've recently eased
that by fitting 11-32T instead of the old 11-21T in back which is the
max the old Shimano 600 derailer could take. In consequence I rarely
have to stand in the pedals and got a hundreds of extra miles out of my
last Wippermann chain. The routes on my road bike are almost the same
week to week and no matter where I go I always have to slog back up to
1450ft where I live.

Now you only have to explain that to Frank :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 11:50:05 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-05-22 19:26, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2016 08:35:56 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-21 23:14, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:26:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-21 16:13, John B. wrote:

I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description said
"HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing".

I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings. Is
there such a thing and can anyone point me to one?


Voila:

http://www.amazon.com/Origin8-Pro-Th.../dp/B002J97EGS

Interesting. I had never seen one.


I was thinking about replacing my miserable Shimano 600 contraption with
one of these. Mine always shakes loose on rough roads.

I believe if I had that problem I would (1) buy a new quality head
set, and (2) have the top and bottom of the head tube reamed and faced
to ensure that the ends were exactly at right angle to the tube and
flat. And, that the head set races were properly installed using a
press of some sort. Not a BFH. (BFH's work but require more skill to
achieve a perfect installation)


I don't mind a little slack in the steerer as long as the thing doesn't
come all the way loose on a rough stretch.


Another thing, there is play in the steer tube threads and after the
threaded race is adjusted perfectly tightening lock nut will likely
change things.


Yes, but by know I just jam it all down. I don't want to fuss around
with it but ride :-)


I might comment that I have a Shimano 600 head set on one of my bikes
that has never come loose :-)


It it this type with the knurled nuts?

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/coronade...Headset_02.JPG

How hard do you torque down the top nut? Mine works ok on regular roads
but it does come loose on gravel roads and dilapidated old highways.
Also during even the shortest offroad stretch if sufficiently gnarly. I
use thick leather plus vise grips to tighten it and give it a lot of
muscle. Maybe I should add a pipe extension for even more torque.

I've even thought about filing down the nuts to get rid of this
nonsensical knurl so I can use regular wrenches.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Is the 600 headset you're using the one with the scalloped nuts?

You need to use TWO wrenches to adjust a headset. You snug the cup to the proper tighteness and then you hod that nut in position with one wrench and then you use the second wrench to tighten the locknut. If you don't adjst the headset properly or tighten the locknut properly then it's no surprise thatt he headset comes loose. That's not a problem with the headset but with the user.

Cheers