Shimano headset with hose clamp (for Frank)

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 1:50:58 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jun 2016 14:53:34 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 2:38:09 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-03 00:16, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 12:39:21 AM UTC-4, James wrote:
On 03/06/16 10:24, Joerg wrote:
As promised here is the pic of the hose clamp "solution" for a
Shiomano headset that used to come loose all the time:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Hoseclamp.JPG

Some day I'll re-do it by underlaying something up front so the
whole thing is flush with the bottom ring. Long story short I
rode 60mi with that and this included dirt roads, bush paths and
dilapidated highway surfaces. In the past the headset was
guaranteed to come loose on each of them. No more. So I guess we
can conclude that this redneck fix works.

Ok, it doesn't look great and I'll probably get a new headset
some day but for right now the problem is ... gone.


Ghastly. Fix it properly. I've had one of those headsets. It
didn't come loose all the time, no matter what roads I rode on.

-- JS

I think that Joerg rode it ao often and so far with it being "Finger
Tight" that he's knackered the headset threads and it'll no longer
tighten and stay tight.


I find it amazing how people venture to make a diagnostic statement
across thousands of miles which is then flat wrong.

After this hose clamp fix the headset is adjusted just right, has no
play in either direction and also not the slightest hint of indexing.
The steering turns freely and the bike has good hands-off behavior. So
can you tell me what exactly is knackered?

The only reason why I'd ever replace it is going to be cosmetic and that
is very low on the priority list.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Sure. The threads on either the headset cup or the headset lockring have to be damaged if they don't stay tight when/if the headset is properly adjusted. They should NOT NEED a hose clamp to stay tight. If they do then it's beyond obvious that something somewhere is damaged.

Cheers

The head set he describes has, I believe, an aluminum lock nut and
aluminum being softer then steel will easily either wear or, perhaps
strip, the threads whereupon its ability to "lock" the threads becomes
nil.

I can't remember the price the last time I bought a head set but
Amazon has them for as low as $10 (I'm sure that I've bought them
cheaper) and I wonder that would have been the results of buying a new
headset and using the lock nut from that ?

But, of course, even an "all stainless" hose clamp is a cheaper
solution.
--
cheers,

John B.


that's why you don't ride a finger tightened aluminium alloy headset on rough roads. The threads are very likely to get damaged and then the headset won't stay tight. I think the same thing could happen if one over tightened the top locknut = the threads get damaged.

Shimano says the torque should be 300 - 400 kg cm (260 - 350 in lbs).

Cheers

On 6/5/2016 3:02 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 1:50:58 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

The head set he describes has, I believe, an aluminum lock nut and
aluminum being softer then steel will easily either wear or, perhaps
strip, the threads whereupon its ability to "lock" the threads becomes
nil.

I can't remember the price the last time I bought a head set but
Amazon has them for as low as $10 (I'm sure that I've bought them
cheaper) and I wonder that would have been the results of buying a new
headset and using the lock nut from that ?

But, of course, even an "all stainless" hose clamp is a cheaper
solution.
--
cheers,

John B.


that's why you don't ride a finger tightened aluminium alloy headset on rough roads. The threads are very likely to get damaged and then the headset won't stay tight. I think the same thing could happen if one over tightened the top locknut = the threads get damaged.

Shimano says the torque should be 300 - 400 kg cm (260 - 350 in lbs).

While I'm not enthusiastic about defending Joerg, I'll just mention that
I have that headset on our tandem. That's the only bike on which I had
to install a locking headset nut. That's despite using the odd
scalloped wrenches to tighten it.

This is the tandem that came with track gauge front forks, the ones that
failed. It's possible, I suppose, that the steerer tube was similarly
super-light and flexible; I haven't checked that.

In any case, the Growler headset lock was cheap, easy and has worked
perfectly. It doesn't have the redneck cachet of a hose clamp, but I
can live with that. ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 8:06:19 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2016 3:02 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 1:50:58 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

The head set he describes has, I believe, an aluminum lock nut and
aluminum being softer then steel will easily either wear or, perhaps
strip, the threads whereupon its ability to "lock" the threads becomes
nil.

I can't remember the price the last time I bought a head set but
Amazon has them for as low as $10 (I'm sure that I've bought them
cheaper) and I wonder that would have been the results of buying a new
headset and using the lock nut from that ?

But, of course, even an "all stainless" hose clamp is a cheaper
solution.
--
cheers,

John B.


that's why you don't ride a finger tightened aluminium alloy headset on rough roads. The threads are very likely to get damaged and then the headset won't stay tight. I think the same thing could happen if one over tightened the top locknut = the threads get damaged.

Shimano says the torque should be 300 - 400 kg cm (260 - 350 in lbs).

While I'm not enthusiastic about defending Joerg, I'll just mention that
I have that headset on our tandem. That's the only bike on which I had
to install a locking headset nut. That's despite using the odd
scalloped wrenches to tighten it.

This is the tandem that came with track gauge front forks, the ones that
failed. It's possible, I suppose, that the steerer tube was similarly
super-light and flexible; I haven't checked that.

In any case, the Growler headset lock was cheap, easy and has worked
perfectly. It doesn't have the redneck cachet of a hose clamp, but I
can live with that. ;-)

The Growler or Gorilla Headlock that I had on my T1000 are reasonable options. I used the Gorilla Headlock not as a kludge but as a precaution. If the headset loosened on a tour, I wouldn't have to find a bike shop -- or carry one of those cut-down headset wrenches. That was another reason I used Phil BBs on my old touring bikes -- it used a single splined tool. Looking back, I carried a freakish amount of tools across the US -- most of which never got used. On a modern touring bike, you could get by with a pocket tool.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2016-06-05 10:57, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 8:06:19 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2016 3:02 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 1:50:58 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

The head set he describes has, I believe, an aluminum lock nut
and aluminum being softer then steel will easily either wear
or, perhaps strip, the threads whereupon its ability to "lock"
the threads becomes nil.


There is nothing stripped in this headset, or even worn. As evidenced by
the fact that it remains in perfect alignment with the hose clamp fix.


I can't remember the price the last time I bought a head set
but Amazon has them for as low as $10 (I'm sure that I've
bought them cheaper) and I wonder that would have been the
results of buying a new headset and using the lock nut from
that ?

But, of course, even an "all stainless" hose clamp is a
cheaper solution. -- cheers,

John B.


that's why you don't ride a finger tightened aluminium alloy
headset on rough roads. The threads are very likely to get
damaged and then the headset won't stay tight. I think the same
thing could happen if one over tightened the top locknut = the
threads get damaged.

Shimano says the torque should be 300 - 400 kg cm (260 - 350 in
lbs).

While I'm not enthusiastic about defending Joerg, I'll just mention
that I have that headset on our tandem. That's the only bike on
which I had to install a locking headset nut. That's despite using
the odd scalloped wrenches to tighten it.

This is the tandem that came with track gauge front forks, the ones
that failed. It's possible, I suppose, that the steerer tube was
similarly super-light and flexible; I haven't checked that.


Back when I started riding in Belgium I frequently heard from other
riders that their 600EX headsets also kept coming loose. The roads there
were worse than in the Netherlands (where I lived at that time). Cracked
or missing asphalt and potholes galore. Much of it unavoidable and you
just had to barrel across. Just like now on some Californian roads.


In any case, the Growler headset lock was cheap, easy and has
worked perfectly. It doesn't have the redneck cachet of a hose
clamp, but I can live with that. ;-)

The Growler or Gorilla Headlock that I had on my T1000 are reasonable
options. I used the Gorilla Headlock not as a kludge but as a
precaution. If the headset loosened on a tour, I wouldn't have to
find a bike shop -- or carry one of those cut-down headset wrenches.
That was another reason I used Phil BBs on my old touring bikes -- it
used a single splined tool. Looking back, I carried a freakish amount
of tools across the US -- most of which never got used. On a modern
touring bike, you could get by with a pocket tool.


On a road bike, yes. On an MTB, different story. I have the same
panniers on both and out of convenience I just grab the tool kit and
lock, then stuff these into the other bike as a whole when I switch.
Only the tubes stay, of course. This makes changing a matter of seconds.
One might think that the first aid kit in there isn't such a necessity
outside of bush trails but I have used it the most (for others) while
road biking. Even the heavy duty tire levers were, for example, when
people rode Gatorskins and had a flat. I still believe these tires are a
tad undersized in diameter.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg wrote:
:On 2016-06-05 10:57, jbeattie wrote:
: On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 8:06:19 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
: On 6/5/2016 3:02 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
: On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 1:50:58 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
:
: The head set he describes has, I believe, an aluminum lock nut
: and aluminum being softer then steel will easily either wear
: or, perhaps strip, the threads whereupon its ability to "lock"
: the threads becomes nil.
:

:There is nothing stripped in this headset, or even worn. As evidenced by
:the fact that it remains in perfect alignment with the hose clamp fix.

that proves no such thing. If it doesn't stay tight, it's either
broken, worn out, or defective to start with. In any case, replacing
it is a reasonable action, especially since it's not some whacky
French piece of garbage that's impossible to find.

--
sig 61

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 02:14:58 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

Joerg wrote:
:On 2016-06-05 10:57, jbeattie wrote:
: On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 8:06:19 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
: On 6/5/2016 3:02 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
: On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 1:50:58 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
:
: The head set he describes has, I believe, an aluminum lock nut
: and aluminum being softer then steel will easily either wear
: or, perhaps strip, the threads whereupon its ability to "lock"
: the threads becomes nil.
:

:There is nothing stripped in this headset, or even worn. As evidenced by
:the fact that it remains in perfect alignment with the hose clamp fix.

that proves no such thing. If it doesn't stay tight, it's either
broken, worn out, or defective to start with. In any case, replacing
it is a reasonable action, especially since it's not some whacky
French piece of garbage that's impossible to find.

Replacement was suggested but he didn't want to spend the money, if I
remember correctly.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 2016-06-06 19:56, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 02:14:58 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

Joerg wrote:
:On 2016-06-05 10:57, jbeattie wrote:
: On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 8:06:19 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
: On 6/5/2016 3:02 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
: On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 1:50:58 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
:
: The head set he describes has, I believe, an aluminum lock nut
: and aluminum being softer then steel will easily either wear
: or, perhaps strip, the threads whereupon its ability to "lock"
: the threads becomes nil.
:

:There is nothing stripped in this headset, or even worn. As evidenced by
:the fact that it remains in perfect alignment with the hose clamp fix.

that proves no such thing. If it doesn't stay tight, it's either
broken, worn out, or defective to start with. In any case, replacing
it is a reasonable action, especially since it's not some whacky
French piece of garbage that's impossible to find.

Replacement was suggested but he didn't want to spend the money, if I
remember correctly.


I have other priorities. Much higher is one that I hope ain't true. On a
rough ride yesterday I might have busted the rear axle of my MTB or
(worse) something in the linkage for the rear suspension. There is now
some sideways slack in the rear that wasn't there at lunch :-(

As I said the headset work just fine right now. Yeah, the hose clamp
looks a bit odd but it is mostly hidden from sight by the addition of an
MP3 player with speaker which is attached to the steerer tube.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 8:05:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-06 19:56, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 02:14:58 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

Joerg wrote:
:On 2016-06-05 10:57, jbeattie wrote:
: On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 8:06:19 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
: On 6/5/2016 3:02 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
: On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 1:50:58 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
:
: The head set he describes has, I believe, an aluminum lock nut
: and aluminum being softer then steel will easily either wear
: or, perhaps strip, the threads whereupon its ability to "lock"
: the threads becomes nil.
:

:There is nothing stripped in this headset, or even worn. As evidenced by
:the fact that it remains in perfect alignment with the hose clamp fix.

that proves no such thing. If it doesn't stay tight, it's either
broken, worn out, or defective to start with. In any case, replacing
it is a reasonable action, especially since it's not some whacky
French piece of garbage that's impossible to find.

Replacement was suggested but he didn't want to spend the money, if I
remember correctly.


I have other priorities. Much higher is one that I hope ain't true. On a
rough ride yesterday I might have busted the rear axle of my MTB or
(worse) something in the linkage for the rear suspension. There is now
some sideways slack in the rear that wasn't there at lunch :-(

As I said the headset work just fine right now. Yeah, the hose clamp
looks a bit odd but it is mostly hidden from sight by the addition of an
MP3 player with speaker which is attached to the steerer tube.

Are you f****** kidding? An MP3 player and SPEAKERS? That is trashier than the hose clamp. I hope the mountain lions do eat you.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 07/06/2016 11:35 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 8:05:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

snip

As I said the headset work just fine right now. Yeah, the hose clamp
looks a bit odd but it is mostly hidden from sight by the addition of an
MP3 player with speaker which is attached to the steerer tube.

Are you f****** kidding? An MP3 player and SPEAKERS? That is trashier than the hose clamp. I hope the mountain lions do eat you.


Well now you know why they chase him anyway...

On 2016-06-07 08:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 8:05:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-06 19:56, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 02:14:58 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

Joerg wrote: :On 2016-06-05 10:57,
jbeattie wrote: : On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 8:06:19 AM UTC-7,
Frank Krygowski wrote: : On 6/5/2016 3:02 AM, Sir Ridesalot
wrote: : On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 1:50:58 AM UTC-4, John
B. wrote: : : The head set he describes has, I believe,
an aluminum lock nut : and aluminum being softer then steel
will easily either wear : or, perhaps strip, the threads
whereupon its ability to "lock" : the threads becomes nil.
:

:There is nothing stripped in this headset, or even worn. As
evidenced by :the fact that it remains in perfect alignment
with the hose clamp fix.

that proves no such thing. If it doesn't stay tight, it's
either broken, worn out, or defective to start with. In any
case, replacing it is a reasonable action, especially since
it's not some whacky French piece of garbage that's impossible
to find.

Replacement was suggested but he didn't want to spend the money,
if I remember correctly.


I have other priorities. Much higher is one that I hope ain't true.
On a rough ride yesterday I might have busted the rear axle of my
MTB or (worse) something in the linkage for the rear suspension.
There is now some sideways slack in the rear that wasn't there at
lunch :-(

As I said the headset work just fine right now. Yeah, the hose
clamp looks a bit odd but it is mostly hidden from sight by the
addition of an MP3 player with speaker which is attached to the
steerer tube.

Are you f****** kidding? An MP3 player and SPEAKERS? That is
trashier than the hose clamp. I hope the mountain lions do eat you.


It is one with an integrated speaker. I only use it on long boring
uphill slogs, especially when a heavier load slows me down. Above 15mph
on regular stretches it wouldn't make much sense anyhow because of the
wind noise. The speaker is pointed directly at me in order to minimize
bothering others (there usually aren't any others).

This is on the road bike. Still debating whether to get another one for
the MTB for long prairie sections of trail. But probably not.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/