New B&M Lights with Wide Beam and Daytime Mode Available

sms writes:

On 11/16/2013 4:59 AM, Helmut Springer wrote:
sms wrote:
A flashing red rear tail light long ago became the identifying
characteristic of a bicycle at night, at least in most countries,
and it was made legal where it was illegal

No, but who expected you to know or stay to the truth...

LOL, are you trying to say that a flashing red rear tail light is
_not_ the de-facto identifying characteristic of a bicycle at night?
Or are you trying to say that it was not made legal in places where it
was previously illegal?

You've now narrowed the meaning of "made legal where it was illegal"
simply to make the statement correct in response to a challenge, but
in doing so you've taken all the weight out of it. The fact remains
that it has *not* been made legal in significant jursidictions.


Sorry, but you can't deny the former,

The defacto identifying characterisitic of a bicycle at night is two
wheels with a rider on top. Spoke reflectors are probably the most
identifying characteristic in advance of that. A flashing LED might
indicate a bicycle, but could be almost anything, or almost nothing
(e.g. my commute takes me past a red blinkie on a stick at the end
of someone's driveway).

I think the fact that bicyclists are allowed to use them, despite
laws that prohibit it, illustrates a recognition that bicyclists have
some very different operating parameters than the rules of the road
are geared for.

Using them is a tradeoff: Flashing lights are chaotic and I believe
they may lend to target fixation, but they are more attention-getting
(*not* more visible). It would be nice to have the best of both
(attention and order), but driver states of mind are the issue, and
driver inattention - rather than driver "hypnosis - seems to be what
people are most concerned about, hence the ubiquitous blinkies.

(... which are illegal here, BTW.)

I have to say that I am not altogether comfortable using flashing
mode on my bike. I do it judiciously with the white headlight in
consideration of the tradeoff above, and I do it with the red tail-
light because it's enough trouble already futzing with the headlight
batteries, and the greatly extended battery runtime of flashing mode
is (so far) a decisive factor.

There are some other less obvious things going on, which we've
discussed a bit before - like disorientation of flashing lights
causing drivers to "stop and think" for a moment before acting, but
still it would be better if we didn't have to throw a chaos bomb
everywhere to get their attention and consideration.

... but perhaps I should not have
said "most countries," but instead have said "most large countries."

Perhaps you should have just quit before making it obvious that
you're more interested in winning the argument than its substance.

snip

On Sunday, November 17, 2013 5:22:11 PM UTC, Phil W Lee wrote:

Almost every other vehicle on the road has a choice of two beam

patterns.

Yes, this is what I've been trying to explain since the Cyo first came out. I used almost those very words on RBT a week or three back.

Now that bicycles are able to produce enough light to create a problem

for other road users, it is about time we could simply and easily do

the same.

Of course there will be cobbled together (and therefore bad) solutions

faster than there will be properly designed ones, since proper design

takes time.

Enough time has passed for BUMM to launch the first bad solution, the Luxos "panoramic" lamp, which isn't a high beam, and isn't under the rider's control, and in execution and use fails to do anything right.

I don't believe anyone has done any work on a high-beam pattern

optimised for LEDs (probably pairs) of around the maximum power that a

dynamo can usefully produce at speed. Once that is sorted out, we can

have switchable high/low beams just like every other road vehicle.

Now you see, Phil, when you put your brain in gear, when you stop laughably trying to be a polemicist, when you stop being a doormat for the wretched Krygowski, YOU TALK SENSE. Keep it up!

You're a bit careless with the language still, though. Your phrase "the maximum power that a
dynamo can usefully produce at speed" could mislead the roadies into thinking you mean 25mph. Nope. Dim/bright lights must work at housewife shopping-with-the-kids speed, say the 15kph or just under 10mph built into the old German legislation, just about the only part of it worth carrying forward. In short, these new lamps must be defined and developed to the power available at a minimum speed, not some notional maximum. Otherwise these lamps will become a roadie special, there will be zero development because there aren't enough roadies (yeah, yeah, I know Americans think there are only roadies, but elsewhere there are gazillions of utility cyclists who buy far more lamps) to bring down unit costs, and the vast majority of cyclists will be excluded. It would be an antisocial act to make these new, most desirable lamps dependent on any speed above 15kph. It would in fact be proof positive that the whole Krygowski wing of vehicular cyclists aren't interested in spreading the use of bicycles wider, but instead of creating a little ghetto of roadies, which they will no doubt claim is inhabited by an elite, spelt Schutzstaffel, abbreviated SS.

Andre Jute
Popularizer of elite components

On 11/17/2013 10:08 AM, Dan wrote:n

snip

I think the fact that bicyclists are allowed to use them, despite
laws that prohibit it, illustrates a recognition that bicyclists have
some very different operating parameters than the rules of the road
are geared for.

As I provided _valid_ cites for, they are explicitly legal in the UK,
Australia, New Zealand, and Canada (I looked at those countries just
because those were some of the countries where John was incorrectly
claiming that they are illegal).

BTW, flashing tail lights are explicitly legal in Sweden, I used Google
Translate and searched for "blinkande cykel ljus," and found the result
he http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Vag/Fordon/fordonsregler/Cykel/

I could not find anything South Korea (searching for this sort of thing
in English doesn't work too well in non-English countries). Next week
I'll ask my niece, who speaks Korean, if she can look it up for me.

In the U.S. it varies by state. Some states make it explicitly legal,
some make it implicitly legal (stating that bicycles are not allowed to
have flashing blue lights but saying nothing about other colors of
flashing lights). In some states it is probably technically illegal
based on motor vehicle laws. Regardless of the differences between
states, it's unlikely that any cyclist in the U.S. has ever been cited
for their tail light flashing (or for their headlight flashing for that
matter).

(... which are illegal here, BTW.)

Where is "here?"

Perhaps you should have just quit before making it obvious that
you're more interested in winning the argument than its substance.

I don't care about winning any argument. It's just annoying when people
don't like the facts so they go out and make up their own, especially
when they use Wikipedia as a source and don't even get that right.
People are entitled to their own opinions. They are not entitled to
their own facts.

It was interesting to find all those laws in various countries, but the
goal was not to "win" it was just to encourage people to at least base
their arguments on facts, however uncomfortable those facts may be.

On 11/17/2013 10:18 AM, Andre Jute wrote:

Dim/bright lights must work at housewife shopping-with-the-kids speed, say the 15kph or just under 10mph built into the old German legislation, just about the only part of it worth carrying forward.

It would not be difficult to design a dynamo and lights that work
acceptably well at those speeds. For commuting, it doesn't really make a
lot of difference if a hub dynamo is a bit larger and heavier than the
present models being sold. But the demand for such a product is so tiny
that it's not going to happen unless legislation requires it.

On Sunday, November 17, 2013 12:28:30 PM UTC-5, Phil W Lee wrote:
sms considered Thu, 14 Nov 2013 14:04:52

A flashing light is what you want for daytime use as a daytime running
light. It's very similar to what motorcycles do with modulated front
lights in the daytime.

You mean those almost non-existent ones, that at least 99% of
motorcyclists don't use?

To prove I'm not writing out of bias, I must report seeing another motorcycle with a modulated headlight about three weeks ago.

That makes two of them this year. And while I haven't kept count of the motorcycles I've seen _without_ modulated headlights, I suspect the number is _well_ over 1000. It may approach 10,000.

- Frank Krygowski

On 11/17/2013 10:18 AM, Andre Jute wrote:

Now you see, Phil, when you put your brain in gear, when you stop laughably trying to be a polemicist, when you stop being a doormat for the wretched Krygowski, YOU TALK SENSE. Keep it up!

There have been, and still are, bicycle lights available with multiple
beam patterns. They use two lamps powered by a single battery, with two
different beams that can be used individually or together. They have an
optimal beam pattern for each side, spot or flood. They've not become
popular. Too expensive, too big, too complex.

It would be extremely difficult, if it's possible at all, to duplicate a
high/low single automobile headlight with LEDs sharing the same optics.

Now what you're seeing is a bunch of lights that are zoomable between
spot and flood. There's several at
http://www.torchythebatteryboy.com/p/bike-light-database.html.

As to aiming high or low, you either get two lights and position one to
aim high and one to aim low, or you swivel your light if you really need
that functionality. The reality is that with a symmetrical beam you just
aim the light slightly down and you're able to illuminate the road
sufficiently far ahead plus you're getting sufficient spill off to the
sides and slightly up.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 17:28:30 +0000, Phil W Lee
wrote:

sms considered Thu, 14 Nov 2013 14:04:52
-0800 the perfect time to write:

On 11/14/2013 10:00 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:55:28 PM UTC, Clive George wrote:

Anecdote from Tuesday evening. Driving along an unlit A-road at night. I

saw the cyclist with a normal headlight. 30 or so seconds later I saw a

brief flash out of the corner of my eye, and realised that was a cyclist

I'd not seen at all coming the other way. His flasher was hidden in the

noise of the cars coming towards me.

It depends on the strength of the flasher. I was out walking last night and on a busy road where with good lamps I don't go in the rush hour I saw a guy on his bike with a front flasher I didn't notice until he was almost past me. As you say, lost in the noise.

On the other hand, coming around the corner of a building at the hospital in broad if overcast daylight, the first thing I saw was a front flasher a hundred paces and then some away. I stood stock still watching it, and a driver would have to be blind, deaf and stupid to miss it. I don't know what it was. The girl's rear flasher was the one I recommend for those who insist on battery lamps, the Cateye LD-TL1100; you can do much better these days by getting a hub dynamo and BUMM's Line Plus and leaving it on 24/7 (it lacks a blink mode but is bright enough to make up for it).

Flashing lights are more conspicuous than solid lights, but I can't
imagine using one at night, at least not as the only light.

Now I see a lot of cyclists with both a solid and a flashing light at
night and I guess that's okay if you're willing to deal with multiple
front lights.

A flashing light is what you want for daytime use as a daytime running
light. It's very similar to what motorcycles do with modulated front
lights in the daytime.

You mean those almost non-existent ones, that at least 99% of
motorcyclists don't use?

What you want to avoid at all costs is riding in the daytime without a
flashing light in the front.

Bull****.

I'm not a bit sure that "daytime running lights" are necessary. I had
a lovely 4 hour ride in Bangkok traffic on Sunday. I got a late start
and thus forgot to turn on either a rear or front light. It seemed to
make no difference at all from my other rides with lights on.

And for those oppressed minority riders in the rich, dynamic, vibrant
nations, nobody tried to "right hook" (over here, left hook) me,
Nobody threatened to door me. Even at bus stops I had at least 3 ft.
of passing clearance. Not a single one of the disastrous event
occurred that I see mentioned so frequently here :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 12:36:17 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Sunday, November 17, 2013 12:28:30 PM UTC-5, Phil W Lee wrote:
sms considered Thu, 14 Nov 2013 14:04:52

A flashing light is what you want for daytime use as a daytime running
light. It's very similar to what motorcycles do with modulated front
lights in the daytime.

You mean those almost non-existent ones, that at least 99% of
motorcyclists don't use?

To prove I'm not writing out of bias, I must report seeing another motorcycle with a modulated headlight about three weeks ago.

That makes two of them this year. And while I haven't kept count of the motorcycles I've seen _without_ modulated headlights, I suspect the number is _well_ over 1000. It may approach 10,000.

- Frank Krygowski

Naw Frank. You just don't know how to make a survey. You saw a
modulated head light and then you saw another... probably a lot of
guys have them. The other 1,00 or 10,000 didn't so you can safely
ignore them. they don't count. :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:12:14 PM UTC, sms wrote:
On 11/17/2013 10:18 AM, Andre Jute wrote:



Dim/bright lights must work at housewife shopping-with-the-kids speed, say the 15kph or just under 10mph built into the old German legislation, just about the only part of it worth carrying forward.



It would not be difficult to design a dynamo and lights that work

acceptably well at those speeds. For commuting, it doesn't really make a

lot of difference if a hub dynamo is a bit larger and heavier than the

present models being sold. But the demand for such a product is so tiny

that it's not going to happen unless legislation requires it.

Forget the demand in the States, Scharfie. The demand that drives upmarket lamp manufacture is Dutch and German and Taiwanese (for their European markets) manufacturers fitting high quality lamps on mass-produced commuter bikes as standard equipment. What Americans want, or will buy, or not, is utterly irrelevant.

Your point about legislation is valid. The market for high quality lamps was created by that German legislation we excoriate for other reasons, and by other nations for a long time following it de facto with the exception of not necessarily outlawing flashing lamps. If lamps of a certain standard were compulsory on bicycles in the States, lamps of that standard would become available, and be developed to be both cheap and relatively good, because there would be a market. Until then... As I say, the States is an irrelevance, if one that the lamp manufacturers eye hungrily because a goodly number of bikes are sold there. The best legislation would be on the German pattern, requiring lamps to be fitted as OEM equipment before a bike is sold.

Andre Jute

On 11/17/2013 4:55 PM, Andre Jute wrote:

Your point about legislation is valid. The market for high quality lamps was created by that German legislation we excoriate for other reasons, and by other nations for a long time following it de facto with the exception of not necessarily outlawing flashing lamps. If lamps of a certain standard were compulsory on bicycles in the States, lamps of that standard would become available, and be developed to be both cheap and relatively good, because there would be a market. Until then... As I say, the States is an irrelevance, if one that the lamp manufacturers eye hungrily because a goodly number of bikes are sold there. The best legislation would be on the German pattern, requiring lamps to be fitted as OEM equipment before a bike is sold.

There are many legally required vehicle safety features that the auto
manufacturers moaned about, but they drove the cost down and since every
manufacturer had to comply no one was at a competitive disadvantage.
Safety glass, seat belts, collapsible steering columns, padded dash
boards, air bags, TPMS, and VSC come to mind.

I don't like the idea of passing more laws to make everything safe for
everyone but by the same token unless bicycles are manufactured to a
standard that encourages their use as a vehicle alternative there's
little chance of getting people to consider bicycling as a commute
method. I actually like the motive behind what Germany has done in terms
of required equipment, they just haven't kept up.