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Old Bicycle re-hab
I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications , convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work - adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake cable. I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of chroming part of the frame before I paint it. I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has, over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am a bit concerned about. Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of the tubes. Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"? Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment? -- cheers, John B. |
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#2
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Old Bicycle re-hab
On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote:
I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications , convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work - adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake cable. I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of chroming part of the frame before I paint it. I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has, over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am a bit concerned about. Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of the tubes. Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"? Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment? -- cheers, John B. We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA, including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts. As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is furniture and classic car bumpers. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#3
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Old Bicycle re-hab
On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 19:46:31 +0700, John B.
wrote: I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications , convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work - adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake cable. I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of chroming part of the frame before I paint it. I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has, over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am a bit concerned about. Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of the tubes. Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"? Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment? That's what "triple chrome plating" is for. Instead of just a "flash coat" of copper, you plate the copper on good and thick, then polish away the copper to get a perfectly smooth finish, then nickel plate, and finally a thin coat of chrome. |
#4
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Old Bicycle re-hab
On 9/6/2015 12:05 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
AMuzi considered Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500 the perfect time to write: On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote: I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications , convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work - adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake cable. I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of chroming part of the frame before I paint it. I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has, over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am a bit concerned about. Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of the tubes. Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"? Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment? -- cheers, John B. We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA, including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts. As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is furniture and classic car bumpers. I'd also impress on the chrome shop the necessity of ensuring that none of the acid cleaning baths get inside any tubes. It would be almost impossible to adequately rinse, and will eat the tube from the inside out. Other way around. One must ensure that there are vent holes and that they are adequately sized (2mm+) and not occluded. Acid, water, winter road salt, whatever always gets in. You need to know that you can flush it clean afterwards. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#5
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Old Bicycle re-hab
On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote: I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications , convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work - adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake cable. I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of chroming part of the frame before I paint it. I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has, over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am a bit concerned about. Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of the tubes. Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"? Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment? -- cheers, John B. We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA, including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts. Everything is "giveaway rates" compared to USA" :-} But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying to describe the Sahara to a fish. But having said that years ago I worked in a Gunsmith shop in Shreveport LA, where we did a considerable amount of hot tank blueing and plating and the old fellow - probably 60+, who had been a plater all his life and who managed the plating and blueing end of the business, had no septum in his nose. Apparently it is a known result of working with acids and hot solutions of corrosive "stuff". He was, and had been, aware, since being an apprentice boy, of what caused the problem and had simply made the decision to ignore it. Had there been such a thing as OSHA in those days the shop owner would have had to abandoned that portion of the business and the old fellow would have been out of a job. As it was he set all prices and estimates for the blueing/plating side of things and literally paid the Shop a commission on each job that he did and apparently was doing right well. He drove a new car, his wife drove a new car, he lived a bit out in the country on a very nice, and well kept farm. Far better than having your business shut down or priced out of the market by the Government :-) As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is furniture and classic car bumpers. Yes, in any event I will explain exactly what I want and how and as I mentioned he did all the hardware for a banjo that I rebuilt and did it exactly as I requested. Another shop had looked at the bag of bits and pieces I had immediately said that they were so busy at the moment that it might be "next month". -- cheers, John B. |
#6
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Old Bicycle re-hab
On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 18:05:02 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote: AMuzi considered Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500 the perfect time to write: On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote: I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications , convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work - adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake cable. I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of chroming part of the frame before I paint it. I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has, over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am a bit concerned about. Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of the tubes. Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"? Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment? -- cheers, John B. We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA, including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts. As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is furniture and classic car bumpers. I'd also impress on the chrome shop the necessity of ensuring that none of the acid cleaning baths get inside any tubes. It would be almost impossible to adequately rinse, and will eat the tube from the inside out. Yes. I have looked at the bike closely and there are no holes in the fork and rear triangle that, for some reason, seems to be "normal practice" with many makers. Incidentally the holes are said to allow air expansion during braze/welding, which is certainly true, but there is no reason not to braze them closed when the "heavy work" finished and things cool off. -- cheers, John B. |
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Old Bicycle re-hab
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#8
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Old Bicycle re-hab
On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 12:52:51 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2015 12:05 PM, Phil W Lee wrote: AMuzi considered Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500 the perfect time to write: On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote: I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications , convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work - adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake cable. I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of chroming part of the frame before I paint it. I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has, over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am a bit concerned about. Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of the tubes. Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"? Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment? -- cheers, John B. We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA, including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts. As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is furniture and classic car bumpers. I'd also impress on the chrome shop the necessity of ensuring that none of the acid cleaning baths get inside any tubes. It would be almost impossible to adequately rinse, and will eat the tube from the inside out. Other way around. One must ensure that there are vent holes and that they are adequately sized (2mm+) and not occluded. Acid, water, winter road salt, whatever always gets in. You need to know that you can flush it clean afterwards. The old method, when building a tubular airplane frame was to drill connecting holes at each weld joint. When finished, one drilled a sing;e hole into a tube at one end of the frame. Then with the frame vertically (with the hole up) you injected linseed oil into the tube system until it was full. Than hand the frame the other side up until "all" the oil drains out and close the hole with a sheet metal screw. This is essentially the method that the Frame Saver guy came up with, except he doesn't use linseed oil :-} -- cheers, John B. |
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Old Bicycle re-hab
chrome plating a fine Japanese frame is a feudal bourgeoisie Italian desecration of Asian culture, tradition and pride in workmanship
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#10
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Old Bicycle re-hab
On 9/6/2015 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote: I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications , convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work - adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake cable. I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of chroming part of the frame before I paint it. I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has, over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am a bit concerned about. Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of the tubes. Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"? Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment? -- cheers, John B. We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA, including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts. Everything is "giveaway rates" compared to USA" :-} But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying to describe the Sahara to a fish. But having said that years ago I worked in a Gunsmith shop in Shreveport LA, where we did a considerable amount of hot tank blueing and plating and the old fellow - probably 60+, who had been a plater all his life and who managed the plating and blueing end of the business, had no septum in his nose. Apparently it is a known result of working with acids and hot solutions of corrosive "stuff". He was, and had been, aware, since being an apprentice boy, of what caused the problem and had simply made the decision to ignore it. Had there been such a thing as OSHA in those days the shop owner would have had to abandoned that portion of the business and the old fellow would have been out of a job. As it was he set all prices and estimates for the blueing/plating side of things and literally paid the Shop a commission on each job that he did and apparently was doing right well. He drove a new car, his wife drove a new car, he lived a bit out in the country on a very nice, and well kept farm. Far better than having your business shut down or priced out of the market by the Government :-) As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is furniture and classic car bumpers. Yes, in any event I will explain exactly what I want and how and as I mentioned he did all the hardware for a banjo that I rebuilt and did it exactly as I requested. Another shop had looked at the bag of bits and pieces I had immediately said that they were so busy at the moment that it might be "next month". "But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying to describe the Sahara to a fish." Examples abound. Stalin accused the landed farmers of not producing enough wheat so he killed nearly all of them. The more they killed, the less wheat was produced. The net effect was to strengthen the Party and the NKVD. Several millions in Russia and Ukraine starved to death but from the Party viewpoint that's minor collateral damage. Regulators care about regulation and the power of the martinets, not jobs, not GDP, not actual citizens' lives. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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