Blinded

On 9/7/2015 7:12 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 10:48:45 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 20:59, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:53:52 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 09:48, John B. wrote:


She says that my light never became overly bright.

That's good. I doubt many cyclists go to such lengths to test their
lights though. Many just want to be seen at all costs.

Well, actually it wasn't an experiment to see if my lights were o.k. I
was trying to determine why all this excitement about blinding drivers
and I am now firmly convinced that the problem isn't with the lamps it
is with the cyclists.

You've checked one light and you now deduce that all lights ok? Wow.

No I don't mean that. But I believe that I did ascertain that is a
light is aimed slightly downward so that it illuminates the pavement,
which I am assuming is what a bicycle light is for - so you can see
the road - it doesn't shine in automobile drivers eyes and blind them.

Again, I have at least one friend who asserts that "what a bicycle light
is for" is not to light the road. He uses his headlight in daylight,
and he asserts that its proper use is to annoy the **** out of oncoming
motorists, so that they will be sure to notice him.

This is the guy who tilts his light upward about ten to fifteen degrees,
trying to aim for motorists' eyes. I tried to show him that he's
actually shooting above his (foolishly chosen) target and into the
mirrors of cyclists riding ahead of him. But he didn't seem to grasp
the geometry.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 07/09/15 21:12, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 10:48:45 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 20:59, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:53:52 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 09:48, John B. wrote:


She says that my light never became overly bright.

That's good. I doubt many cyclists go to such lengths to test their
lights though. Many just want to be seen at all costs.

Well, actually it wasn't an experiment to see if my lights were o.k. I
was trying to determine why all this excitement about blinding drivers
and I am now firmly convinced that the problem isn't with the lamps it
is with the cyclists.

You've checked one light and you now deduce that all lights ok? Wow.

No I don't mean that. But I believe that I did ascertain that is a
light is aimed slightly downward so that it illuminates the pavement,
which I am assuming is what a bicycle light is for - so you can see
the road - it doesn't shine in automobile drivers eyes and blind them.

I disagree. Some lights may be that way, but others have spill such
that they may still be blinding to others even though the main lobe is
aimed to see the pavement.

--
JS

On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 10:11:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/7/2015 7:12 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 10:48:45 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 20:59, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:53:52 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 09:48, John B. wrote:


She says that my light never became overly bright.

That's good. I doubt many cyclists go to such lengths to test their
lights though. Many just want to be seen at all costs.

Well, actually it wasn't an experiment to see if my lights were o.k. I
was trying to determine why all this excitement about blinding drivers
and I am now firmly convinced that the problem isn't with the lamps it
is with the cyclists.

You've checked one light and you now deduce that all lights ok? Wow.

No I don't mean that. But I believe that I did ascertain that is a
light is aimed slightly downward so that it illuminates the pavement,
which I am assuming is what a bicycle light is for - so you can see
the road - it doesn't shine in automobile drivers eyes and blind them.

Again, I have at least one friend who asserts that "what a bicycle light
is for" is not to light the road. He uses his headlight in daylight,
and he asserts that its proper use is to annoy the **** out of oncoming
motorists, so that they will be sure to notice him.

This is the guy who tilts his light upward about ten to fifteen degrees,
trying to aim for motorists' eyes. I tried to show him that he's
actually shooting above his (foolishly chosen) target and into the
mirrors of cyclists riding ahead of him. But he didn't seem to grasp
the geometry.

Unless the guy is hauling a WW II anti-aircraft light, or its equal,
about it might be informative, to him, to park his bike somewhere,
with the light on, and walk away from it for a distance. It wakes one
up to the fact that in the day time the usual "bike" light" is not
really tremendously bright.

The other day, for example, a fellow a bit faster than my passed me
with, what I thought , was a pretty bright red light on the rear of
the bike. It was a long stretch of highway so I was able to watch him
as he rode off into the distance.

As he passed me, perhaps 4 - 6 feet to my right the light appeared
very bright, indeed. In fact I thought "Wow! Gotta get one of those",
utile I realized that I already had one just like his. Fifty yards
away and it was still noticeable and at 100 yards you could still see
the light and at 200 yards you could see the light if you were aware
that the guy had a light. Automobile tail lights, in contract, were
very noticeable at 200 yards, and auto stop lights were extremely
effective at attention getting at the same distance.

In contrast, a 12 M. boat must have a mast head light that is visible
for 3 miles and side lights visible for 2 miles.

Also, I recently came across a paper done in cooperating with the
highway department in Australia, either Victoria or N.S.W. which
determined to be effective flashing warning lights must be visible at
a minimum of 600 M.

So, in reality, whether a bicycle is carrying an Hllies-Licht, made by
Black Forest Gnomes, or a Cheap Chinese Light, in terms of the real
world it is pretty ineffective.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 06:50:53 +1000, James
wrote:

On 07/09/15 21:12, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 10:48:45 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 20:59, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:53:52 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 09:48, John B. wrote:


She says that my light never became overly bright.

That's good. I doubt many cyclists go to such lengths to test their
lights though. Many just want to be seen at all costs.

Well, actually it wasn't an experiment to see if my lights were o.k. I
was trying to determine why all this excitement about blinding drivers
and I am now firmly convinced that the problem isn't with the lamps it
is with the cyclists.

You've checked one light and you now deduce that all lights ok? Wow.

No I don't mean that. But I believe that I did ascertain that is a
light is aimed slightly downward so that it illuminates the pavement,
which I am assuming is what a bicycle light is for - so you can see
the road - it doesn't shine in automobile drivers eyes and blind them.

I disagree. Some lights may be that way, but others have spill such
that they may still be blinding to others even though the main lobe is
aimed to see the pavement.

I was thinking specifically of a flashlight with its essentially round
beam, but given the inverse-square law, how bright a light does one
require that the fringe lighting is blinding at any reasonable
distance? Can a bicycle generate that much power?
--
cheers,

John B.

On 9/7/2015 9:37 PM, John B. wrote:


So, in reality, whether a bicycle is carrying an Hllies-Licht, made by
Black Forest Gnomes, or a Cheap Chinese Light, in terms of the real
world it is pretty ineffective.

Driving to a family gathering today (Labor Day), I noticed two roadie
cyclists far ahead of me on a country road. As a guess, I'd say I
spotted them from half a mile back.

When I got to within about 200 feet of them, I noticed that both had
blinking taillights. IOW, the effect of the taillights was completely
negligible.

BTW, both were gutter bunnies, riding in the one-foot strip of shoulder
to the right of the fog line, next to a lane too narrow to safely share.
Of course, I crossed the center line to pass them. But I wonder how
many other motorists accepted their invitation to pass with minimal
clearance.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 08/09/15 11:40, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 06:50:53 +1000, James
wrote:

On 07/09/15 21:12, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 10:48:45 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 20:59, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:53:52 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 09:48, John B. wrote:


She says that my light never became overly bright.

That's good. I doubt many cyclists go to such lengths to test their
lights though. Many just want to be seen at all costs.

Well, actually it wasn't an experiment to see if my lights were o.k. I
was trying to determine why all this excitement about blinding drivers
and I am now firmly convinced that the problem isn't with the lamps it
is with the cyclists.

You've checked one light and you now deduce that all lights ok? Wow.

No I don't mean that. But I believe that I did ascertain that is a
light is aimed slightly downward so that it illuminates the pavement,
which I am assuming is what a bicycle light is for - so you can see
the road - it doesn't shine in automobile drivers eyes and blind them.

I disagree. Some lights may be that way, but others have spill such
that they may still be blinding to others even though the main lobe is
aimed to see the pavement.

I was thinking specifically of a flashlight with its essentially round
beam, but given the inverse-square law, how bright a light does one
require that the fringe lighting is blinding at any reasonable
distance? Can a bicycle generate that much power?

Among flashlights the radiation pattern can vary wildly between designs
of symmetrical beams.

Why ask about generating power? The original assertion was about what
most people in this country (Australia) use on their bicycle, which is a
battery powered torch strapped to the handlebars or mounted on their helmet.

--
JS

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 17:29:01 +1000, James
wrote:

On 08/09/15 11:40, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 06:50:53 +1000, James
wrote:

On 07/09/15 21:12, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 10:48:45 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 20:59, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:53:52 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 09:48, John B. wrote:


She says that my light never became overly bright.

That's good. I doubt many cyclists go to such lengths to test their
lights though. Many just want to be seen at all costs.

Well, actually it wasn't an experiment to see if my lights were o.k. I
was trying to determine why all this excitement about blinding drivers
and I am now firmly convinced that the problem isn't with the lamps it
is with the cyclists.

You've checked one light and you now deduce that all lights ok? Wow.

No I don't mean that. But I believe that I did ascertain that is a
light is aimed slightly downward so that it illuminates the pavement,
which I am assuming is what a bicycle light is for - so you can see
the road - it doesn't shine in automobile drivers eyes and blind them.

I disagree. Some lights may be that way, but others have spill such
that they may still be blinding to others even though the main lobe is
aimed to see the pavement.

I was thinking specifically of a flashlight with its essentially round
beam, but given the inverse-square law, how bright a light does one
require that the fringe lighting is blinding at any reasonable
distance? Can a bicycle generate that much power?

Among flashlights the radiation pattern can vary wildly between designs
of symmetrical beams.

Why ask about generating power? The original assertion was about what
most people in this country (Australia) use on their bicycle, which is a
battery powered torch strapped to the handlebars or mounted on their helmet.


The question was: "how bright a light does one
require that the fringe lighting is blinding at any reasonable
distance?"

Followed by a possible response:
"Can a bicycle generate that much power?"

If one is talking about something equal to say, a Honda auto head
light than it is about 40/50 watts per lamp or 80 - 100 watts total.

--
cheers,

John B.

On 9/4/2015 9:20 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a drink
and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was getting dark, but
I could still see where I was going, even without lights. I was heading
against the general flow of bikes on a shared path, and almost all were
sporting very bright headlights that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet back
streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen light only,
and there was enough ambient light I could still easily see where I was
going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the German
bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people riding bicycles.
--
JS

Headlights are not only to be seen but also to see with. That makes bright headlights advantageous.

The problem is that unlike cars which have their headlights set at the factory, bicycle lighting systems are self installed. And most people set them to look too far ahead with an egotistical idea of their own speed. This has the bad effects of NOT showing the road directly in front of your wheel and of being so high that they blind on-coming traffic.

On a ride last night I had to twist the rear-view mirror off-line to keep from being blinded by bicycle headlights.

So get the brightest headlight you can get but point in down.

Shared multi-use paths are where mis-aimed headlights are an actual
issue. I ran into this on Sunday down in Corona CA, though only one
rider had a flashing front light that was mis-aimed.

A nice path but much of it next to a 65MPH divided highway.

Did some good Bromping down there.

On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 6:46:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/7/2015 9:37 PM, John B. wrote:


So, in reality, whether a bicycle is carrying an Hllies-Licht, made by
Black Forest Gnomes, or a Cheap Chinese Light, in terms of the real
world it is pretty ineffective.

Driving to a family gathering today (Labor Day), I noticed two roadie
cyclists far ahead of me on a country road. As a guess, I'd say I
spotted them from half a mile back.

When I got to within about 200 feet of them, I noticed that both had
blinking taillights. IOW, the effect of the taillights was completely
negligible.

BTW, both were gutter bunnies, riding in the one-foot strip of shoulder
to the right of the fog line, next to a lane too narrow to safely share.
Of course, I crossed the center line to pass them. But I wonder how
many other motorists accepted their invitation to pass with minimal
clearance.

I rode to work this morning in low light. There were two cyclists 150 yards or so up the road, both with weak flashers. I noticed the guy in the fluorescent green jersey long before I notice his flasher. The other guy was visible most of the time but faded into the background in some places -- including a rather dangerous place where he took the road. His clothes were too dark (the all-brown hipster lumber-jack cyclist look that is so popular these days). http://www.primalunleashed.com/blog/...872464_n.j pg

I didn't notice his poorly aimed flasher until I was practically on top of him.

IMO, in daylight or low light (e.g. fall cloud-cover), bright clothes are far more effective than limp flashers -- and flashers that really grab your attention are annoying to other cyclists.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/9/2015 9:05 AM, jbeattie wrote:

I rode to work this morning in low light. There were two cyclists 150 yards or so up the road, both with weak flashers. I noticed the guy in the fluorescent green jersey long before I notice his flasher. The other guy was visible most of the time but faded into the background in some places -- including a rather dangerous place where he took the road. His clothes were too dark (the all-brown hipster lumber-jack cyclist look that is so popular these days). http://www.primalunleashed.com/blog/...872464_n.j pg

I didn't notice his poorly aimed flasher until I was practically on top of him.

IMO, in daylight or low light (e.g. fall cloud-cover), bright clothes are far more effective than limp flashers -- and flashers that really grab your attention are annoying to other cyclists.

Yes, weak flashers are ineffective. Good flashers are highly effective.
And not everyone wants to ride in fluorescent jerseys.

Think about what equipment you can use as a transportational cyclist to
make yourself conspicuous without special clothing.