Durability 11 speed chains

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
:
: Lou

:I think that sometimes a rigourous cleaning regimen actually promotes
:faster wear of some things.

Probably true. It's hard to get lubrication where it matters if
you're not hte manufcturer. heat and solvents remove the lube, and if
you don't put it back, the chain wears very fast.

--
sig 60

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/5/2015 5:05 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

I was really surprized about the wear of the 11 speed Shimano CN6800
chain on my crossbike considering the 'mudwrestling' I did with that
bike. Even after 2340 km the chain has some mileage on. Shimano really
improved their chains. Something TOUR magazine also noticed in their
annual chain tests.

I'm jealous that you have a magazine that does things like annual chain
tests. In the U.S., our magazines are much more prone to things like
"stiff but compliant" and "the bib shorts you have to buy!" and "tips for
great-looking legs."

You probably have better baseball magazines 😊

--
Lou

I buy some cheap oil at Menards that is thicker than than 3 in 1 but cost
about $3 a bottle. I have wipperman connect link but about every 300 miles
wipe the chain on the bike with OMS and then re-lube takes about 5 minutes.
Many about every 1200 miles I take the chain off and drop it in OMS for a
quick bath while I clean the rest of the bike, then re-lube takes maybe 10
minutes since I am cleaning the bike too. So far I get at least 5000 miles
on a 10 speed chain and shows no stretch on the very accurate machinist
ruler. I change the chain usually at that time but have never failed to get
5000 miles on a chain. Too much work if it takes more than 5 minutes and oil
is oil, cheap and use it liberally. I do not ride in the rain normally
unless it just happens and stay on roads. I think cassettes for me are good
for at least 15000 miles but frankly I have changed them just because I
wanted a different set of gears. I do not know what it is but I am great on
chain life. My maintenance is to keep the rear loop smooth for perfect
shifting and so I change the rear derailleur cable and rear loop housing 2
times a year at least. The new Shimano stuff may eliminate that frequency.

BTY, went to the new Shimano coated Polymer cables and housing they use on
the 11 speed stuff, on my 10 speed Wilier and what a difference. It is
pricey but have not missed a shift in 2000 miles no joke.

Deacon Mark Cleary

Epiphany RC Church.

"Lou Holtman" wrote in message
...

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/5/2015 5:05 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

I was really surprized about the wear of the 11 speed Shimano CN6800
chain on my crossbike considering the 'mudwrestling' I did with that
bike. Even after 2340 km the chain has some mileage on. Shimano really
improved their chains. Something TOUR magazine also noticed in their
annual chain tests.

I'm jealous that you have a magazine that does things like annual chain
tests. In the U.S., our magazines are much more prone to things like
"stiff but compliant" and "the bib shorts you have to buy!" and "tips for
great-looking legs."

You probably have better baseball magazines 😊

--
Lou

On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 7:28:53 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 7:04:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 5:48:58 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
I hit the 6000 km mark with my first 11 speed Campagnolo equipped roadbike
today and used the Rohloff caliber to measure the chain wear:

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-E1...376%5B1%5D.JPG

Except for an occasional caught in the rain situation this bike was ridden
in dry conditions. Never removed the chain from the bike for cleaning with
a solvent, only wipped it off with a rag and cleaned it on the bike with
water and soap from time to time. Chain is a Campagnolo Record 11 speed (43
euro).

While I was at it I did the same with my cross bike, also 11 speed but
Shimano in this case. This chain has been used for 2340 km most of the time
off road and often in wet and muddy conditions:

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--c...382%5B1%5D.JPG

Chain is a Ultegra level CN6800 11 speed (23 euro), also never removed from
the bike for cleaning with solvents.
I use a wax based lube for both chains.
So even with a 11 speed drivetrain chain cost is insignificant in my case.
Lou

Well, I'm a lot more active with my cleaning and I use 9-speed parts meaning that the chains are all 10 speed these days. Since I put in between 6,000 and 10,000 miles a year the chain costs are hardly insignificant. Ebay cost for a Campy or DuraAce chain is about $50 and I have four road bikes and an off-road. I always use a master link these days so that I can remove the chain and cassette to clean completely. Since all of the bikes have different wheelbases the lengths of the chains are approximately the same but a link or two difference so you can't change them around and have a spare chain to switch in.

I feel very slow but apparently I'm not judging from the number of people that pass me only to be at the top of the hill with their heads between their legs as I ride past. So perhaps I put more wear on a chain than normal.

I go through a minimum of two chains per bike each year so that's $500. I tried the cheaper chains which were said to be every bit as good as the more expensive only to have them wear MUCH faster. Several of my riding pals have the same experience but most of them only have a single bike and perhaps a back-up for rainy days.

I've tried all of the magic lubricants and the wet lubes such as Rocket work very well and you can actually feel the difference. But they are messy and weep until the next cleaning.

But the best I've found is simply wax lube in a can. You put your can of wax into a flat pan of water and bring it almost to a boil. This will melt the wax. In the meantime you heat your CLEAN chain on a pan with a parchment underlayer in the oven until it is JUST hot enough so that it won't burn your hands. I have fashioned a couple of hooks of heavy wire that I catch the chain ends with and then I hold the chain in a vertical loop and work the chain back and forth through the wax from end to end several times. You then remove it and let it cool and dry - about 5 minutes. Then reassemble the chain on the bike.

Not only does the chain last longer, run smoother and quieter but the wear on the sprockets is reduced.

The negative is that you have to do this procedure more often than simply shooting some Rocket on the chain and leaving it to dry overnight. And it gets a heavy residue on the sprockets that is difficult to clean off.

So because of the extra work I just usually clean the chain and use a wet lube like Rocket and leave it to dry AT LEAST overnight.

To lube you don't spray it on but slowly rotate the chain and deposit one drop on each link until the entire chain is lubed. Most road bikes have 106 links or so. But if you use a master link it's easier to start and finish there.

And it is difficult to get a "drop" out and you have to keep up ending the bottle to allow air in. And then the next three "drops" are three or four so that you use the expensive lubes up much faster than necessary.

Hmmm. You put in between 6-10,000 miles on five bikes, and you're buying ten chains a year? That seems excessive. Lou is getting 3,600 miles out of one chain with no off-bike cleaning and some wax-based bottle lube.

I did serious chain maintenance yesterday on my commuter. I leaned the bike against a bush near my garage door, sprayed the chain with some lube while running it backwards over the cassette and then wiped it down. I'm exhausted. The spray can is super heavy.

-- Jay Beattie.

Part of that is that I live in the San Francisco bay area and every ride is 2000 ft of climbing or more with a lot of 8%+ slopes. One section is a quarter mile of 16%. That other part is that I change out chains early because I have 9 speed components and it's getting REALLY hard to find good cassettes. So you have to be careful with what you have.

On Saturday, September 5, 2015 at 7:24:05 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/5/2015 5:05 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

I was really surprized about the wear of the 11 speed Shimano CN6800
chain on my crossbike considering the 'mudwrestling' I did with that
bike. Even after 2340 km the chain has some mileage on. Shimano really
improved their chains. Something TOUR magazine also noticed in their
annual chain tests.

I'm jealous that you have a magazine that does things like annual chain
tests. In the U.S., our magazines are much more prone to things like
"stiff but compliant" and "the bib shorts you have to buy!" and "tips
for great-looking legs."

--
- Frank Krygowski

What really galls me is "The best bike I've ever ridden" on every single test.

On Saturday, September 5, 2015 at 11:33:23 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/5/2015 5:05 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

I was really surprized about the wear of the 11 speed Shimano CN6800
chain on my crossbike considering the 'mudwrestling' I did with that
bike. Even after 2340 km the chain has some mileage on. Shimano really
improved their chains. Something TOUR magazine also noticed in their
annual chain tests.

I'm jealous that you have a magazine that does things like annual chain
tests. In the U.S., our magazines are much more prone to things like
"stiff but compliant" and "the bib shorts you have to buy!" and "tips for
great-looking legs."

You probably have better baseball magazines 😊

--
Lou

"He's the best player in the history of the sport".

On Sunday, September 6, 2015 at 7:37:08 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 7:28:53 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 7:04:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 5:48:58 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
I hit the 6000 km mark with my first 11 speed Campagnolo equipped roadbike
today and used the Rohloff caliber to measure the chain wear:

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-E1...376%5B1%5D.JPG

Except for an occasional caught in the rain situation this bike was ridden
in dry conditions. Never removed the chain from the bike for cleaning with
a solvent, only wipped it off with a rag and cleaned it on the bike with
water and soap from time to time. Chain is a Campagnolo Record 11 speed (43
euro).

While I was at it I did the same with my cross bike, also 11 speed but
Shimano in this case. This chain has been used for 2340 km most of the time
off road and often in wet and muddy conditions:

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--c...382%5B1%5D.JPG

Chain is a Ultegra level CN6800 11 speed (23 euro), also never removed from
the bike for cleaning with solvents.
I use a wax based lube for both chains.
So even with a 11 speed drivetrain chain cost is insignificant in my case.
Lou

Well, I'm a lot more active with my cleaning and I use 9-speed parts meaning that the chains are all 10 speed these days. Since I put in between 6,000 and 10,000 miles a year the chain costs are hardly insignificant. Ebay cost for a Campy or DuraAce chain is about $50 and I have four road bikes and an off-road. I always use a master link these days so that I can remove the chain and cassette to clean completely. Since all of the bikes have different wheelbases the lengths of the chains are approximately the same but a link or two difference so you can't change them around and have a spare chain to switch in.

I feel very slow but apparently I'm not judging from the number of people that pass me only to be at the top of the hill with their heads between their legs as I ride past. So perhaps I put more wear on a chain than normal.

I go through a minimum of two chains per bike each year so that's $500. I tried the cheaper chains which were said to be every bit as good as the more expensive only to have them wear MUCH faster. Several of my riding pals have the same experience but most of them only have a single bike and perhaps a back-up for rainy days.

I've tried all of the magic lubricants and the wet lubes such as Rocket work very well and you can actually feel the difference. But they are messy and weep until the next cleaning.

But the best I've found is simply wax lube in a can. You put your can of wax into a flat pan of water and bring it almost to a boil. This will melt the wax. In the meantime you heat your CLEAN chain on a pan with a parchment underlayer in the oven until it is JUST hot enough so that it won't burn your hands. I have fashioned a couple of hooks of heavy wire that I catch the chain ends with and then I hold the chain in a vertical loop and work the chain back and forth through the wax from end to end several times. You then remove it and let it cool and dry - about 5 minutes. Then reassemble the chain on the bike.

Not only does the chain last longer, run smoother and quieter but the wear on the sprockets is reduced.

The negative is that you have to do this procedure more often than simply shooting some Rocket on the chain and leaving it to dry overnight. And it gets a heavy residue on the sprockets that is difficult to clean off.

So because of the extra work I just usually clean the chain and use a wet lube like Rocket and leave it to dry AT LEAST overnight.

To lube you don't spray it on but slowly rotate the chain and deposit one drop on each link until the entire chain is lubed. Most road bikes have 106 links or so. But if you use a master link it's easier to start and finish there.

And it is difficult to get a "drop" out and you have to keep up ending the bottle to allow air in. And then the next three "drops" are three or four so that you use the expensive lubes up much faster than necessary.

Hmmm. You put in between 6-10,000 miles on five bikes, and you're buying ten chains a year? That seems excessive. Lou is getting 3,600 miles out of one chain with no off-bike cleaning and some wax-based bottle lube.

I did serious chain maintenance yesterday on my commuter. I leaned the bike against a bush near my garage door, sprayed the chain with some lube while running it backwards over the cassette and then wiped it down. I'm exhausted. The spray can is super heavy.

-- Jay Beattie.

Part of that is that I live in the San Francisco bay area and every ride is 2000 ft of climbing or more with a lot of 8%+ slopes. One section is a quarter mile of 16%. That other part is that I change out chains early because I have 9 speed components and it's getting REALLY hard to find good cassettes. So you have to be careful with what you have.

My commuter is nine speed, and it's really easy to find cassettes. https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...hp?category=41 I just bought a bunch of KMC chains and two cassettes from Nashbar.

Chain load is not that important in chain wear -- it's more an issue of grit and lubrication. Salt air and rain in SF are more damaging than the hills -- assuming you are in SF proper. Are you measuring elongation or just changing chains on a schedule?

BTW, every ride is 2,000 feet -- like to the grocery store? To work? That would get exhausting.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 17:06:26 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, September 6, 2015 at 7:37:08 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 7:28:53 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 7:04:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 5:48:58 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
I hit the 6000 km mark with my first 11 speed Campagnolo equipped roadbike
today and used the Rohloff caliber to measure the chain wear:

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-E1...376%5B1%5D.JPG

Except for an occasional caught in the rain situation this bike was ridden
in dry conditions. Never removed the chain from the bike for cleaning with
a solvent, only wipped it off with a rag and cleaned it on the bike with
water and soap from time to time. Chain is a Campagnolo Record 11 speed (43
euro).

While I was at it I did the same with my cross bike, also 11 speed but
Shimano in this case. This chain has been used for 2340 km most of the time
off road and often in wet and muddy conditions:

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--c...382%5B1%5D.JPG

Chain is a Ultegra level CN6800 11 speed (23 euro), also never removed from
the bike for cleaning with solvents.
I use a wax based lube for both chains.
So even with a 11 speed drivetrain chain cost is insignificant in my case.
Lou

Well, I'm a lot more active with my cleaning and I use 9-speed parts meaning that the chains are all 10 speed these days. Since I put in between 6,000 and 10,000 miles a year the chain costs are hardly insignificant. Ebay cost for a Campy or DuraAce chain is about $50 and I have four road bikes and an off-road. I always use a master link these days so that I can remove the chain and cassette to clean completely. Since all of the bikes have different wheelbases the lengths of the chains are approximately the same but a link or two difference so you can't change them around and have a spare chain to switch in.

I have noticed that bike shops here are carrying fewer and fewer
choices in 9 speed stuff. Almost as though they are simply selling of
existing inventory. The Trek dealer here now seems to sell only 10 or
maybe 11 speed in new road bikes.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 20:47:55 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

John B. considered Tue, 08 Sep 2015 08:45:38
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 17:06:26 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, September 6, 2015 at 7:37:08 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 7:28:53 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 7:04:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 5:48:58 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
I hit the 6000 km mark with my first 11 speed Campagnolo equipped roadbike
today and used the Rohloff caliber to measure the chain wear:

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-E1...376%5B1%5D.JPG

Except for an occasional caught in the rain situation this bike was ridden
in dry conditions. Never removed the chain from the bike for cleaning with
a solvent, only wipped it off with a rag and cleaned it on the bike with
water and soap from time to time. Chain is a Campagnolo Record 11 speed (43
euro).

While I was at it I did the same with my cross bike, also 11 speed but
Shimano in this case. This chain has been used for 2340 km most of the time
off road and often in wet and muddy conditions:

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--c...382%5B1%5D.JPG

Chain is a Ultegra level CN6800 11 speed (23 euro), also never removed from
the bike for cleaning with solvents.
I use a wax based lube for both chains.
So even with a 11 speed drivetrain chain cost is insignificant in my case.
Lou

Well, I'm a lot more active with my cleaning and I use 9-speed parts meaning that the chains are all 10 speed these days. Since I put in between 6,000 and 10,000 miles a year the chain costs are hardly insignificant. Ebay cost for a Campy or DuraAce chain is about $50 and I have four road bikes and an off-road. I always use a master link these days so that I can remove the chain and cassette to clean completely. Since all of the bikes have different wheelbases the lengths of the chains are approximately the same but a link or two difference so you can't change them around and have a spare chain to switch in.

I have noticed that bike shops here are carrying fewer and fewer
choices in 9 speed stuff. Almost as though they are simply selling of
existing inventory. The Trek dealer here now seems to sell only 10 or
maybe 11 speed in new road bikes.

Then they complain about losing business to the online retailers.
I can get anything from 5 to 11 online, at the click of a mouse, and
at least from 7 speed up, in a range of qualities.

But, face facts. No single commercial operation can match the Amazon
concept where Amazon has no physical presence and holds zero
inventory. You read the small print and it says "shipped from Tibet in
about 1 month from confirmation of order" and you either bite the
bullet or you don't order the item.

But the guy that drops into his local bike shop and wants to buy the
bits and pieces to repair the coaster brake on his 1930's Schwinn
bitches all around the neighborhood when the shop doesn't stock it.

Which, of course why Amazon is making a very large bundle of money
while local shops are going broke.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 9/8/2015 2:47 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
John B. considered Tue, 08 Sep 2015 08:45:38
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 17:06:26 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, September 6, 2015 at 7:37:08 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 7:28:53 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 7:04:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 5:48:58 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
I hit the 6000 km mark with my first 11 speed Campagnolo equipped roadbike
today and used the Rohloff caliber to measure the chain wear:

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-E1...376%5B1%5D.JPG

Except for an occasional caught in the rain situation this bike was ridden
in dry conditions. Never removed the chain from the bike for cleaning with
a solvent, only wipped it off with a rag and cleaned it on the bike with
water and soap from time to time. Chain is a Campagnolo Record 11 speed (43
euro).

While I was at it I did the same with my cross bike, also 11 speed but
Shimano in this case. This chain has been used for 2340 km most of the time
off road and often in wet and muddy conditions:

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--c...382%5B1%5D.JPG

Chain is a Ultegra level CN6800 11 speed (23 euro), also never removed from
the bike for cleaning with solvents.
I use a wax based lube for both chains.
So even with a 11 speed drivetrain chain cost is insignificant in my case.
Lou

Well, I'm a lot more active with my cleaning and I use 9-speed parts meaning that the chains are all 10 speed these days. Since I put in between 6,000 and 10,000 miles a year the chain costs are hardly insignificant. Ebay cost for a Campy or DuraAce chain is about $50 and I have four road bikes and an off-road. I always use a master link these days so that I can remove the chain and cassette to clean completely. Since all of the bikes have different wheelbases the lengths of the chains are approximately the same but a link or two difference so you can't change them around and have a spare chain to switch in.

I have noticed that bike shops here are carrying fewer and fewer
choices in 9 speed stuff. Almost as though they are simply selling of
existing inventory. The Trek dealer here now seems to sell only 10 or
maybe 11 speed in new road bikes.

Then they complain about losing business to the online retailers.
I can get anything from 5 to 11 online, at the click of a mouse, and
at least from 7 speed up, in a range of qualities.


I'm surprised that any shop which regularly services
bicycles would not have cassettes and chains in stock.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971