Friction shifter squeal, fix?

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 8:11:22 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
I also did today, had to. Gravel roads are ok, they have a fine
blueish-gray dust which somehow doesn't get in there as fast. But real
dirt roads turn a chain brown within less than 10 miles out here. Then
after 20 miles or so you start "hearing" the chain. After 40-50 miles it
can be ghastly, to the point where I walked the MTB up the last (paved)
hill to our house in order not to wear the cassette. When I clean it
about half a shotglass worth of "dust turds" comes out of the chain,
mixed with grass pudding, mashed wood, yellow star-thistle mousse and
other delicatessen. Also needs to be scraped out of the cassette and off
the chain rings.

The road bike can go up to 200mi between chain cleanings. However, the
grime on its chain is always black and not brown like on the MTB. Which
makes me wonder what goes into my lungs during road rides. Diesel soot?

Gripe: Why can't they make sturdy side walls anymore? Today I gashed
another 3-4 side wall fibers in the Gatorskin up front. Hurumph! Grumble.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Sounds like your chains are overly lubed with a wet lube which attracts and holds fine dust thereby creating a super efficient grinding compound. I ride hundreds of miles of gravel, dirt ans/or stone-dust trails every year and i never have the problems of premature chain wear or grinding noises that you do. Mayhap, you should try keeping the outside of your chain much dryer?

Cheers

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 07:13:14 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-09-08 4:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/7/2015 2:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-07 12:06 PM, wrote:
On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 11:48:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
Folks,

Lately my old Shimano 600 friction shifter levers let off an
annoying squeal when moving them. Shifting is ok but it's
embarrassing when other road bikers are around.

A drop of oil didn't help. Can I use some sort of lube on
their
inner surfaces? LiquiMoly LM48 maybe? Some other trick?
Wanted to
ask here before I do something where they'll never work
right
anymore and someone will say "Oh, you shouldn't have done
that".

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I've never seen this before but I can imagine after all
these years
that bearing surface is probably dried out with caked dirt
and
grease. Set the levers parallel with the downtube and
rotate the
wheels so that the derailleurs go to their neutral
positions (small
cog and smallest ring). This should give enough slack to
unscrew and
remove the levers. Remember that you can get some slack by
rotating
the derailleurs a little.

Using WD40 or some such to cut through the sludge clean
the bearing
surfaces including inside of the levers. Make sure there
is nothing
remaining of any junk. Inspect closely for any cracks in
the downtube
mounts and in the lever bodies.

Re-lube with a light grease and NOT OIL upon reassembly.
Bearings are
not supposed to have oil on them. They are supposed to be
greased.
Make sure that the cables are in the grooves for them on
the levers.


Thank you. I just tried your recipe with the FD shifter and
ball bearing grease sparingly applied. Now it needs to be
tightened a bit more than usual in order not to gradually
slide back and it makes a slight grinding noise but ... no
more squeal. Next ride is tomorrow and if this works I'll do
the same with the RD shifter.

The inner black steel ring with the two locking notches had
some rust on it.


Grease or machine oil work equally well for that.


I did both now. Works quite well. Long term I'll have to do something
about those steel guide slots underneath the BB. We have a lot of dirt
and bush roads where crud cakes itself in there.

It sounds a bit shoddy but the cheap plastic bolt on BB guides
actually are self lubricating and are more effective then the
carefully formed and brazed metal guides.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 21:09:36 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Phil W Lee" wrote in message
.. .
Joerg considered Tue, 08 Sep 2015
08:02:25 -0700 the perfect time to write:

On 2015-09-08 7:40 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2015 9:13 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-08 4:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/7/2015 2:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-07 12:06 PM, wrote:
On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 11:48:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
Folks,

Lately my old Shimano 600 friction shifter levers let
off an
annoying squeal when moving them. Shifting is ok but it's
embarrassing when other road bikers are around.

A drop of oil didn't help. Can I use some sort of lube on
their
inner surfaces? LiquiMoly LM48 maybe? Some other trick?
Wanted to
ask here before I do something where they'll never work
right
anymore and someone will say "Oh, you shouldn't have done
that".

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I've never seen this before but I can imagine after all
these years
that bearing surface is probably dried out with caked dirt
and
grease. Set the levers parallel with the downtube and
rotate the
wheels so that the derailleurs go to their neutral
positions (small
cog and smallest ring). This should give enough slack to
unscrew and
remove the levers. Remember that you can get some slack by
rotating
the derailleurs a little.

Using WD40 or some such to cut through the sludge clean
the bearing
surfaces including inside of the levers. Make sure there
is nothing
remaining of any junk. Inspect closely for any cracks in
the downtube
mounts and in the lever bodies.

Re-lube with a light grease and NOT OIL upon reassembly.
Bearings are
not supposed to have oil on them. They are supposed to be
greased.
Make sure that the cables are in the grooves for them on
the levers.


Thank you. I just tried your recipe with the FD shifter and
ball bearing grease sparingly applied. Now it needs to be
tightened a bit more than usual in order not to gradually
slide back and it makes a slight grinding noise but ... no
more squeal. Next ride is tomorrow and if this works I'll do
the same with the RD shifter.

The inner black steel ring with the two locking notches had
some rust on it.


Grease or machine oil work equally well for that.


I did both now. Works quite well. Long term I'll have to do
something about those steel guide slots underneath the BB.
We have a lot of dirt and bush roads where crud cakes itself
in there.


Toothbrush, really, followed by a drop of oil on the wire.


But probably not the grimy toothbrush I use on the MTB chain :-)

I did use a toothbrush for this job yesterday but then bearing grease,
hoping it'll stick a little longer in there.

One remarkable cleaning device I discovered recently are disposable
interdental brushes. They look like microscopic bottle brushes and are
excellent in cleaning small crevices on bicycles, most importanly inside
the chain links. So now I use them for my teeth and instead of tossing I
clean the little brushes, let them dry, use them once more on the bikes,
then throw them away. It didn't speed up the MTB chain maintenance a lot
but the chain is cleaner afterwards.

http://sheldonbrown.com/chainclean.html

If your time is worth anything at all - it'd be cheaper to just buy another
chain!


Actually, if your time is worth anything at all - you wouldn't be
blundering around on a bicycle.

--
cheers,

John B.

Cycling is ..


The bb guides ? you have a maintenence interval ? turn the frame on end against wall or flip upside down n maintain...therr's a cut bottle holding brush, a squirter bottle of dilute Palmolive , a can of lube.

On 2015-09-08 5:35 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 4:29:37 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-08 1:09 PM, Ian Field wrote:

"Phil W Lee" wrote in message
...
Joerg considered Tue, 08 Sep 2015
08:02:25 -0700 the perfect time to write:

On 2015-09-08 7:40 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2015 9:13 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-08 4:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/7/2015 2:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-07 12:06 PM, wrote:
On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 11:48:22 AM UTC-7,
Joerg wrote:
Folks,

Lately my old Shimano 600 friction shifter levers
let off an annoying squeal when moving them.
Shifting is ok but it's embarrassing when other
road bikers are around.

A drop of oil didn't help. Can I use some sort of
lube on their inner surfaces? LiquiMoly LM48
maybe? Some other trick? Wanted to ask here
before I do something where they'll never work
right anymore and someone will say "Oh, you
shouldn't have done that".

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I've never seen this before but I can imagine after
all these years that bearing surface is probably
dried out with caked dirt and grease. Set the
levers parallel with the downtube and rotate the
wheels so that the derailleurs go to their neutral
positions (small cog and smallest ring). This
should give enough slack to unscrew and remove the
levers. Remember that you can get some slack by
rotating the derailleurs a little.

Using WD40 or some such to cut through the sludge
clean the bearing surfaces including inside of the
levers. Make sure there is nothing remaining of any
junk. Inspect closely for any cracks in the
downtube mounts and in the lever bodies.

Re-lube with a light grease and NOT OIL upon
reassembly. Bearings are not supposed to have oil
on them. They are supposed to be greased. Make sure
that the cables are in the grooves for them on the
levers.


Thank you. I just tried your recipe with the FD
shifter and ball bearing grease sparingly applied.
Now it needs to be tightened a bit more than usual in
order not to gradually slide back and it makes a
slight grinding noise but ... no more squeal. Next
ride is tomorrow and if this works I'll do the same
with the RD shifter.

The inner black steel ring with the two locking
notches had some rust on it.


Grease or machine oil work equally well for that.


I did both now. Works quite well. Long term I'll have to
do something about those steel guide slots underneath the
BB. We have a lot of dirt and bush roads where crud cakes
itself in there.


Toothbrush, really, followed by a drop of oil on the wire.


But probably not the grimy toothbrush I use on the MTB chain
:-)

I did use a toothbrush for this job yesterday but then
bearing grease, hoping it'll stick a little longer in there.

One remarkable cleaning device I discovered recently are
disposable interdental brushes. They look like microscopic
bottle brushes and are excellent in cleaning small crevices
on bicycles, most importanly inside the chain links. So now I
use them for my teeth and instead of tossing I clean the
little brushes, let them dry, use them once more on the
bikes, then throw them away. It didn't speed up the MTB chain
maintenance a lot but the chain is cleaner afterwards.

http://sheldonbrown.com/chainclean.html

If your time is worth anything at all - it'd be cheaper to just
buy another chain!


I've met mountain bikers whose chains don't last 500 miles. The
reason was rather obvious. This does not only ruin the chain in no
time but also chain rings and cassettes.

Ok, a lawyer or dentist might make so much money that they can
just regularly plop down $200-300 at the bike dealer to have that
whole enchilada replaced all the time. Even if I were that wealthy
I do not subscribe to such a throw-away mentality.


When I can't be bothered taking the chain off and washing it in
kerosene, I just lubricate it regularly with motor oil - that
contains anti-sludging detergents that emulsify easily. A few
journeys in rain and the chain is clean as a whistle.


Very few miles on a dusty trails and such a chain will start
grinding away at the cassette and chain rings. Then those start
aging, fast.


With new or freshly cleaned chains, I start off with molybdenum
lubricants to treat the bearing surfaces, then carry on with
Teflon lubricants.


You probably don't mountain bike a lot :-)

After cleaning my MTB chain it purrs nicely for 20 miles or so.
After 40-50 miles it grinds and it's back onto the work bench. Just
a normal day in paradise.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You and you MTB friends must be doing something very wrong (or
you're using the cheapest chains) if your MTB chain is only lasting
500 miles. Dito for a grinding chain after only 20 miles. Even the
very heavy dust on the trails I ride don't cause that kind of wear
and I'm talking dust so thick I wear a dust mask to protect my
lungs.


I prefer the KMC X10.93, mostly because it can be opened in the field in
an emergency without needing any tools other than what nature provides.
The lube is White Lighting Epic Ride and is gently applied onto each
link via a Q-Tip. I baby the chain a bit but that way mine lasts around
1500mi which at least in this areas is unusual per what other MTB riders
say.

At one of my watering holes I met a group of mountain bikers that were
just leaving and we chatted for a few minutes. They were way more
professional than I will ever be, competition riders with really
expensive gear. One guy said "You get 40-50mi per lube out here? Lucky
you! I hardly get more than 30mi". I bet they are riding a more
aggressive style. Depends on the trail, too. For example, one from
Folsom Lake to Lotus (Caifornia) doesn't dirty the chain much and it'll
be good for another ride later. But mostly it's only one ride and then
cleaning.

As for keeping chains dry that can be an issue as well depending on
season. One trail out here is so full of vegetation that your feet and
lower legs are smeared with black gooey streaks. Requires a hard brush
under the shower and almost some chemicals instead of soap. Too dry a
chain can stick to the palm of your hand if you pick it up after such a
ride. Not wiping off the excess lube much can result in the goo coming
off the chain easier. Luckily this will ease up soon as the bloom phase
of this stuff is mostly over.

As I said, the chain on my road bike gets the same treatment but easily
lasts 200mi between lubes and even then doesn't make so much noise. The
road bike sees some dirt road use as well because that is almost
unavoidable in our region.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2015-09-08 10:51 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 07:13:14 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-09-08 4:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/7/2015 2:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-07 12:06 PM, wrote:
On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 11:48:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
Folks,

Lately my old Shimano 600 friction shifter levers let off an
annoying squeal when moving them. Shifting is ok but it's
embarrassing when other road bikers are around.

A drop of oil didn't help. Can I use some sort of lube on
their
inner surfaces? LiquiMoly LM48 maybe? Some other trick?
Wanted to
ask here before I do something where they'll never work
right
anymore and someone will say "Oh, you shouldn't have done
that".

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I've never seen this before but I can imagine after all
these years
that bearing surface is probably dried out with caked dirt
and
grease. Set the levers parallel with the downtube and
rotate the
wheels so that the derailleurs go to their neutral
positions (small
cog and smallest ring). This should give enough slack to
unscrew and
remove the levers. Remember that you can get some slack by
rotating
the derailleurs a little.

Using WD40 or some such to cut through the sludge clean
the bearing
surfaces including inside of the levers. Make sure there
is nothing
remaining of any junk. Inspect closely for any cracks in
the downtube
mounts and in the lever bodies.

Re-lube with a light grease and NOT OIL upon reassembly.
Bearings are
not supposed to have oil on them. They are supposed to be
greased.
Make sure that the cables are in the grooves for them on
the levers.


Thank you. I just tried your recipe with the FD shifter and
ball bearing grease sparingly applied. Now it needs to be
tightened a bit more than usual in order not to gradually
slide back and it makes a slight grinding noise but ... no
more squeal. Next ride is tomorrow and if this works I'll do
the same with the RD shifter.

The inner black steel ring with the two locking notches had
some rust on it.


Grease or machine oil work equally well for that.


I did both now. Works quite well. Long term I'll have to do something
about those steel guide slots underneath the BB. We have a lot of dirt
and bush roads where crud cakes itself in there.

It sounds a bit shoddy but the cheap plastic bolt on BB guides
actually are self lubricating and are more effective then the
carefully formed and brazed metal guides.


Yeah, I am not worried if these brazed on guides ever wear through
because then I'll just put something made with Teflon down there. Like a
block of Teflon with two slots and rounded on the BB side. The redneck
solution would be to extend a piece of cable jacket a little past the BB
and duct tape that to the frame.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 9/9/2015 1:51 AM, John B. wrote:


It sounds a bit shoddy but the cheap plastic bolt on BB guides
actually are self lubricating and are more effective then the
carefully formed and brazed metal guides.

I'm not sure about the "self lubricating" bit. After our discussions
the last few days, I inverted my bike and lubricated those guides again.
It caused a noticeable reduction in shift lever effort.

--
- Frank Krygowski

"Joerg" wrote in message
...
On 2015-09-08 1:35 PM, Ian Field wrote:

"Joerg" wrote in message
...
On 2015-09-08 1:09 PM, Ian Field wrote:

[...]

When I can't be bothered taking the chain off and washing it in
kerosene, I just lubricate it regularly with motor oil - that contains
anti-sludging detergents that emulsify easily. A few journeys in rain
and the chain is clean as a whistle.


Very few miles on a dusty trails and such a chain will start grinding
away at the cassette and chain rings. Then those start aging, fast.


With new or freshly cleaned chains, I start off with molybdenum
lubricants to treat the bearing surfaces, then carry on with Teflon
lubricants.


You probably don't mountain bike a lot :-)

Someone recently asked if I'd been trialling on it.

Actually no - but I use a few unpaved cycle tracks.


I also did today, had to. Gravel roads are ok, they have a fine
blueish-gray dust which somehow doesn't get in there as fast. But real
dirt roads turn a chain brown within less than 10 miles out here. Then
after 20 miles or so you start "hearing" the chain. After 40-50 miles it
can be ghastly, to the point where I walked the MTB up the last (paved)
hill to our house in order not to wear the cassette. When I clean it about
half a shotglass worth of "dust turds" comes out of the chain, mixed with
grass pudding, mashed wood, yellow star-thistle mousse and other
delicatessen. Also needs to be scraped out of the cassette and off the
chain rings.

The road bike can go up to 200mi between chain cleanings. However, the
grime on its chain is always black and not brown like on the MTB. Which
makes me wonder what goes into my lungs during road rides. Diesel soot?

Certainly in places like China - vehicle pollution is a greater threat to
health than smoking.

When I worked as a motorcycle courier most deliveries were to London.
Sometimes late on in the day after several runs, when I stopped to ask
directions - I got remarks about being a "blackie".

On 2015-09-09 10:16 AM, Ian Field wrote:

"Joerg" wrote in message
...
On 2015-09-08 1:35 PM, Ian Field wrote:

"Joerg" wrote in message
...
On 2015-09-08 1:09 PM, Ian Field wrote:

[...]

When I can't be bothered taking the chain off and washing it in
kerosene, I just lubricate it regularly with motor oil - that contains
anti-sludging detergents that emulsify easily. A few journeys in rain
and the chain is clean as a whistle.


Very few miles on a dusty trails and such a chain will start grinding
away at the cassette and chain rings. Then those start aging, fast.


With new or freshly cleaned chains, I start off with molybdenum
lubricants to treat the bearing surfaces, then carry on with Teflon
lubricants.


You probably don't mountain bike a lot :-)

Someone recently asked if I'd been trialling on it.

Actually no - but I use a few unpaved cycle tracks.


I also did today, had to. Gravel roads are ok, they have a fine
blueish-gray dust which somehow doesn't get in there as fast. But real
dirt roads turn a chain brown within less than 10 miles out here. Then
after 20 miles or so you start "hearing" the chain. After 40-50 miles
it can be ghastly, to the point where I walked the MTB up the last
(paved) hill to our house in order not to wear the cassette. When I
clean it about half a shotglass worth of "dust turds" comes out of the
chain, mixed with grass pudding, mashed wood, yellow star-thistle
mousse and other delicatessen. Also needs to be scraped out of the
cassette and off the chain rings.

The road bike can go up to 200mi between chain cleanings. However, the
grime on its chain is always black and not brown like on the MTB.
Which makes me wonder what goes into my lungs during road rides.
Diesel soot?

Certainly in places like China - vehicle pollution is a greater threat
to health than smoking.

When I worked as a motorcycle courier most deliveries were to London.
Sometimes late on in the day after several runs, when I stopped to ask
directions - I got remarks about being a "blackie".


A pilot on a business jet had to abort two landing attempts at Beijing.
Neither he nor the co-pilot could see the runway at decision height
because of fog. After the 3rd attempt and landing they found out it
wasn't fog, it was smog.

If I see a school bus or almost any other Diesel vehicle at a traffic
light I stop 200ft beforehand and wait. After it turns green a plume of
soot comes out and this way most of it has wafted off when I get there.
Often I take the MTB instead of the road bike not just because roads are
more dangerous for cyclists than trails but because I am afforded fresh
air almost all the time. Except when I pass Ivan the horse and he lets
one rip :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2015-09-09 9:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/9/2015 1:51 AM, John B. wrote:


It sounds a bit shoddy but the cheap plastic bolt on BB guides
actually are self lubricating and are more effective then the
carefully formed and brazed metal guides.

I'm not sure about the "self lubricating" bit. After our discussions
the last few days, I inverted my bike and lubricated those guides again.
It caused a noticeable reduction in shift lever effort.


I saw a lot of road bikers but over the course of this year and I can
only remember seeing one guy with friction shifters on the down tube
like what I have. He was a retro bike fan and had a 30+ year old Italian
road bike. Mine is of similar vintage but looked embarrassingly worn
compared to his.

Seems everyone has brifters nowadays.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/