Blinded

I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a drink
and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was getting dark, but
I could still see where I was going, even without lights. I was heading
against the general flow of bikes on a shared path, and almost all were
sporting very bright headlights that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet back
streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen light only,
and there was enough ambient light I could still easily see where I was
going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the German
bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people riding bicycles.

--
JS

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a drink
and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was getting dark, but
I could still see where I was going, even without lights. I was heading
against the general flow of bikes on a shared path, and almost all were
sporting very bright headlights that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet back
streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen light only,
and there was enough ambient light I could still easily see where I was
going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the German
bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people riding bicycles.

This is more of a rider issue than a light issue. Most of the handlebar all-in-one lights have multiple settings, including a low beam in the 100-200 lumen range. When I'm using a battery light and not my dyno on a MUP, I put it on the lowest setting and point it down. Many denizens of the MUPs and cycle tracks are idiots and run their lights at full output all the time and point them up the road, regardless of other bicycle traffic. You want to stop and backhand them.

Flashers are another matter because, from what I can tell, they flash at full output or near full output, and even a fairly well aimed light will blind you in a close passing situation. IME, tail lights are either limp and unnoticeable or incredibly distracting. I find myself passing other cyclists in heavy traffic just to get away from retina blasting tail lights. They are an incredible annoyance to other bicyclists.

I have a very strong rear flasher, but it pulses and doesn't flash, and it has output settings. I only run it at the highest output in rain storms.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 03/09/15 11:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a
drink and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was
getting dark, but I could still see where I was going, even without
lights. I was heading against the general flow of bikes on a
shared path, and almost all were sporting very bright headlights
that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet
back streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen
light only, and there was enough ambient light I could still easily
see where I was going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the
German bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people
riding bicycles.

This is more of a rider issue than a light issue. Most of the
handlebar all-in-one lights have multiple settings, including a low
beam in the 100-200 lumen range. When I'm using a battery light and
not my dyno on a MUP, I put it on the lowest setting and point it
down. Many denizens of the MUPs and cycle tracks are idiots and run
their lights at full output all the time and point them up the road,
regardless of other bicycle traffic. You want to stop and backhand
them.

Flashers are another matter because, from what I can tell, they flash
at full output or near full output, and even a fairly well aimed
light will blind you in a close passing situation. IME, tail lights
are either limp and unnoticeable or incredibly distracting. I find
myself passing other cyclists in heavy traffic just to get away from
retina blasting tail lights. They are an incredible annoyance to
other bicyclists.

I have a very strong rear flasher, but it pulses and doesn't flash,
and it has output settings. I only run it at the highest output in
rain storms.


If the lights commonly in use had a low beam *with* a horizontal cut
off, and people forgot to switch from high beam symmetric to low beam
with cut off on shared paths, I would agree that it was a rider issue
rather than a light issue. However, riders want to see the path, so
they aim the light with a symmetric beam to see the path, and end up
blind others because the beam shape is not appropriate. Most people
don't want to keep adjusting where their light is aiming, or even
switching between power levels - therefore it is a light design issue.

To put it another way, if I aimed my dynamo powered light at people's
faces, they would be blinded too, but then I couldn't see the path well
either, so by aiming my light to see the path best, I also don't blind
other people. It's a win-win!

--
JS

On 9/2/2015 6:03 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a drink
and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was getting dark, but
I could still see where I was going, even without lights. I was heading
against the general flow of bikes on a shared path, and almost all were
sporting very bright headlights that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet back
streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen light only,
and there was enough ambient light I could still easily see where I was
going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the German
bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people riding bicycles.

This is more of a rider issue than a light issue. Most of the handlebar all-in-one lights have multiple settings, including a low beam in the 100-200 lumen range. When I'm using a battery light and not my dyno on a MUP, I put it on the lowest setting and point it down. Many denizens of the MUPs and cycle tracks are idiots and run their lights at full output all the time and point them up the road, regardless of other bicycle traffic. You want to stop and backhand them.

Flashers are another matter because, from what I can tell, they flash at full output or near full output, and even a fairly well aimed light will blind you in a close passing situation. IME, tail lights are either limp and unnoticeable or incredibly distracting. I find myself passing other cyclists in heavy traffic just to get away from retina blasting tail lights. They are an incredible annoyance to other bicyclists.

I have a very strong rear flasher, but it pulses and doesn't flash, and it has output settings. I only run it at the highest output in rain storms.

I recall one flasher where the output and flash rate were programmable.
I'm going to look for it at Interbike in two weeks.

On 9/2/2015 9:03 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a drink
and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was getting dark, but
I could still see where I was going, even without lights. I was heading
against the general flow of bikes on a shared path, and almost all were
sporting very bright headlights that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet back
streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen light only,
and there was enough ambient light I could still easily see where I was
going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the German
bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people riding bicycles.

This is more of a rider issue than a light issue. Most of the handlebar
all-in-one lights have multiple settings, including a low beam in the
100-200
lumen range. When I'm using a battery light and not my dyno on a MUP, I
put
it on the lowest setting and point it down. Many denizens of the MUPs and
cycle tracks are idiots and run their lights at full output all the time
and
point them up the road, regardless of other bicycle traffic. You want to
stop
and backhand them.

I know a very nice guy who is convinced he needs a really obnoxious
headlight for "safety" in anything but bright sunlight conditions. He
says "I want to annoy those drivers. I want to make sure they see me
coming."

But it's hell to ride in _front_ of him, because he angles his headlight
about 15 degrees above horizontal! I've tried to show him that the
brightest part of his headlight beam is shooting above the eyes of any
motorist, and is shining right into the eyeglass mirrors of the cyclists
riding in front of him. When I'm leading a ride, it makes it impossible
for me to check on the riders behind me, unless I get someone positioned
to block his beam. Unfortunately, such simple geometry seems to be
beyond his understanding.

This is the problem we face. Some people are simply incapable of
understanding this stuff, and they're completely deluded by the "Danger!
Danger!" types pushing crude mega-lumen lights for both day and night use.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 11:38:44 PM UTC+1, James wrote:

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the German
bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people riding bicycles.

They'd make even better sense if they treated bicycles as vehicles and not as inferior motor cars. Basically that bicycle standard is the dim lights of a 1956 6V circuit Volkswagen Beetle.

I'm experimenting with one of those torches that Scharfie recommends. Mine has a Cree Q5 in it, and by golly I'm glad I didn't buy a T6, which would be quite unusable. As it is, even in daytime I keep the thing turned down to the ground right on the front wheel because otherwise it would be a nuisance, far too strong. All the same, I'm thinking of buying a red one for the back of my bike to experiment with. Years and years ago I lusted after a Dinotte, but couldn't quite bring myself to pay Safari Rally Cibie money for a bicycle lamp; what motivated me so was a video of someone with a Dinotte lamp pointing at the ground and flashing away, with the cylist running along in the bubble of flashing reflected red light, totally unmissable but not strong enough to irritate anyone.

Andre Jute

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 13:08:27 +1000, James
wrote:

On 03/09/15 11:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a
drink and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was
getting dark, but I could still see where I was going, even without
lights. I was heading against the general flow of bikes on a
shared path, and almost all were sporting very bright headlights
that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet
back streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen
light only, and there was enough ambient light I could still easily
see where I was going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the
German bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people
riding bicycles.

This is more of a rider issue than a light issue. Most of the
handlebar all-in-one lights have multiple settings, including a low
beam in the 100-200 lumen range. When I'm using a battery light and
not my dyno on a MUP, I put it on the lowest setting and point it
down. Many denizens of the MUPs and cycle tracks are idiots and run
their lights at full output all the time and point them up the road,
regardless of other bicycle traffic. You want to stop and backhand
them.

Flashers are another matter because, from what I can tell, they flash
at full output or near full output, and even a fairly well aimed
light will blind you in a close passing situation. IME, tail lights
are either limp and unnoticeable or incredibly distracting. I find
myself passing other cyclists in heavy traffic just to get away from
retina blasting tail lights. They are an incredible annoyance to
other bicyclists.

I have a very strong rear flasher, but it pulses and doesn't flash,
and it has output settings. I only run it at the highest output in
rain storms.


If the lights commonly in use had a low beam *with* a horizontal cut
off, and people forgot to switch from high beam symmetric to low beam
with cut off on shared paths, I would agree that it was a rider issue
rather than a light issue. However, riders want to see the path, so
they aim the light with a symmetric beam to see the path, and end up
blind others because the beam shape is not appropriate. Most people
don't want to keep adjusting where their light is aiming, or even
switching between power levels - therefore it is a light design issue.

To put it another way, if I aimed my dynamo powered light at people's
faces, they would be blinded too, but then I couldn't see the path well
either, so by aiming my light to see the path best, I also don't blind
other people. It's a win-win!

I've asked the question before. If I aim my cheap Chinese handlebar
mounted light so that I can see the road it is substantially below the
sight line of any auto driver. On the other hand if I aimed it to
blind auto drivers I wouldn't be able to see the road.

"Curiouser and curiouser!" cried Alice.
--
cheers,

John B.

having bought, installed lights, read the instructions ( there's a clue) the majority stop there failing to learn violin playing only fiddle....2nd

Beattie, Slocum and Muzi are excellent examples herein where their skills and thought processes go beyond fiddle to violin.

you cannot expect that of drones so the light problem is best resolved at the border in the manual....what's the manual say ? I dunno...is there an attempt at explaining light use age ?

try the yellow shooter's clip-ons with baseball cap

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 9:22:26 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/2/2015 9:03 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a drink
and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was getting dark, but
I could still see where I was going, even without lights. I was heading
against the general flow of bikes on a shared path, and almost all were
sporting very bright headlights that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet back
streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen light only,
and there was enough ambient light I could still easily see where I was
going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the German
bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people riding bicycles.

This is more of a rider issue than a light issue. Most of the handlebar
all-in-one lights have multiple settings, including a low beam in the
100-200
lumen range. When I'm using a battery light and not my dyno on a MUP, I
put
it on the lowest setting and point it down. Many denizens of the MUPs and
cycle tracks are idiots and run their lights at full output all the time
and
point them up the road, regardless of other bicycle traffic. You want to
stop
and backhand them.

I know a very nice guy who is convinced he needs a really obnoxious
headlight for "safety" in anything but bright sunlight conditions. He
says "I want to annoy those drivers. I want to make sure they see me
coming."

But it's hell to ride in _front_ of him, because he angles his headlight
about 15 degrees above horizontal! I've tried to show him that the
brightest part of his headlight beam is shooting above the eyes of any
motorist, and is shining right into the eyeglass mirrors of the cyclists
riding in front of him. When I'm leading a ride, it makes it impossible
for me to check on the riders behind me, unless I get someone positioned
to block his beam. Unfortunately, such simple geometry seems to be
beyond his understanding.

This is the problem we face. Some people are simply incapable of
understanding this stuff, and they're completely deluded by the "Danger!
Danger!" types pushing crude mega-lumen lights for both day and night use..

You should just make it a condition of his riding in your group that he turn his light down. Unless the guy is deranged, the message should get through. Give me his number. I'll talk to him. "Turn the f****** light down, you idiot."

James has a point, but I still think that a decent, well-aimed LED with a maximum output in the range of 700 lumen can be used on its lowest setting (150 lumen or thereabouts) without annoying other cyclists, even on MUPs and cycle tracks. Now that daylight is waning, I'm going to pay more attention -- maybe **** myself off and take the cycle track home just to see what lights are blinding. For true urban riding with lots of other cyclists, beam cut off does make sense, but so few people in the U.S. ride in that type of setting.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 03/09/15 21:38, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 13:08:27 +1000, James
wrote:

On 03/09/15 11:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a
drink and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was
getting dark, but I could still see where I was going, even without
lights. I was heading against the general flow of bikes on a
shared path, and almost all were sporting very bright headlights
that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet
back streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen
light only, and there was enough ambient light I could still easily
see where I was going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the
German bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people
riding bicycles.

This is more of a rider issue than a light issue. Most of the
handlebar all-in-one lights have multiple settings, including a low
beam in the 100-200 lumen range. When I'm using a battery light and
not my dyno on a MUP, I put it on the lowest setting and point it
down. Many denizens of the MUPs and cycle tracks are idiots and run
their lights at full output all the time and point them up the road,
regardless of other bicycle traffic. You want to stop and backhand
them.

Flashers are another matter because, from what I can tell, they flash
at full output or near full output, and even a fairly well aimed
light will blind you in a close passing situation. IME, tail lights
are either limp and unnoticeable or incredibly distracting. I find
myself passing other cyclists in heavy traffic just to get away from
retina blasting tail lights. They are an incredible annoyance to
other bicyclists.

I have a very strong rear flasher, but it pulses and doesn't flash,
and it has output settings. I only run it at the highest output in
rain storms.


If the lights commonly in use had a low beam *with* a horizontal cut
off, and people forgot to switch from high beam symmetric to low beam
with cut off on shared paths, I would agree that it was a rider issue
rather than a light issue. However, riders want to see the path, so
they aim the light with a symmetric beam to see the path, and end up
blind others because the beam shape is not appropriate. Most people
don't want to keep adjusting where their light is aiming, or even
switching between power levels - therefore it is a light design issue.

To put it another way, if I aimed my dynamo powered light at people's
faces, they would be blinded too, but then I couldn't see the path well
either, so by aiming my light to see the path best, I also don't blind
other people. It's a win-win!

I've asked the question before. If I aim my cheap Chinese handlebar
mounted light so that I can see the road it is substantially below the
sight line of any auto driver. On the other hand if I aimed it to
blind auto drivers I wouldn't be able to see the road.

"Curiouser and curiouser!" cried Alice.

It depends on how crisp the edges of the beam are, or in other words how
much spill there is outside the central lobe.

I have mates with symmetrical beam lights who have them aimed at the
road, yet road signs are illuminated half a kilometre down the road.

--
JS