Bus racks

On 8/29/2018 8:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 16:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Fixing public transit is fine by me. But I don't think the problem is
the detail design of the bike racks.


That is one of the (many) details. And yes, that does need fixing. Else
people will keep using their pickup trucks.

It's a tiny detail for a microscopic minority or customers: those who
want to take a bike on the bus, have bought a bike that doesn't fit the
racks to their satisfaction, and are incapable of fastening the bike
without whining on newsgroups.


Priority number one is getting a hand on unruly passengers and safety.
Even if it's just perceived safety. I don't get scared by a bum
screaming profanities but most others do.

Most engineers address priority number one before getting lost in the
weeds on priority number 86. Or whatever.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/30/2018 10:23 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 17:41, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 16:39:36 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

I have outlined a few points that can be fixed with a reasonable effort
if there is a willingness to do so. And yes, one of them is to foster
bike transport. Case in point: When I told two other riders that I
carried my bike onto a light rail train they immediately got Connect
Transit Cards like the one I have. It's the snowball effect.

Sorry, it's way too soon to call that a "snowball effect." It's more
like a couple of snowflakes landing together. We don't know whether, or
how often, your buddies may actually use the service. And there's
certainly no proof the concept is going to "snowball" beyond them.

And why would it? The possibility has been there for years, no? There
really aren't that many people who have been waiting for Joerg as a
messiah to be emulated.


And how about the 72 year old accompanying me who cannot hold it at
17-18mph for hours? Just leave him behind on the trail?

But 17 - 18mph? Lets see, that is 27.3 - 28.9kpk... Professional MTB
racers average about 30kph https://bit.ly/2wpdSen you guys must be
racers.


Wrong.

https://www.road-bike.co.uk/articles/average-speed.php

Quote "Reasonable experience, medium (say 40 miles): average around
16-19 mph". Then, quote "Plenty of cyclists can maintain 25+ mph over
long distances".

First, that's ROAD.cc so it doesn't apply to the _trails_ on which you
worried about the 72 year old. (Geez, to people really live to be that
old? ;-)

Second, back in the day I could average 16 - 19 mph for 40 miles. But in
our club's ratings, that would be between a "brisk" and a "fast" pace.
There's never been a time a majority of our club members could do that,
and as the members have aged, the percentage that could has dropped.

Oh, and your quote of the "plenty of cyclists" should have included the
rest of the sentence: "... especially if conditions are flat or they are
cycling in groups." Flat ground in a paceline with strong riders is not
normal riding.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2018-08-30 08:48, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 30, 2018 at 7:43:46 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-30 07:31, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 4:16:40 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 15:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-08-29 09:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 7:22:25 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote: snip

That's what our power company PG&E pulled off.
Instead of fixing fire danger prone overhead wiring
they announced they'll simply cut power if there is
high wind in summer. It is up to the political
leaders to pull the charter if such behavior goes
too far.


I believe that in most, if not all, cases the
generating plants are the property of the electric
company. If the local government were to "cancel
their contract" where would you get electricity
from?

Or do you propose that the local government, in some
manner, perhaps by a tax increase, purchase the
generating plants?


It's about the distribution, not the plant. Utilities
in America run on the cost-plus basis which means
carte blanche. They could let them run the power plants
that way but allow competition in the distribution.
Even Germany did that which, compared to a the US, is
much less capitalist.

Rate-setting is not carte blanche. It is the opposite
of carte blanche. An unregulated industry would mean all
the remote moonscape towns you think are quaint would not
get power because there is no market. The reason we got
the rural electrification program, TVA, Bonneville, etc.
was exactly because private industry wanted no part of it
or the project was simply too big.


It is carte blanche. Cost-plus means the utility can rack
up any amount of cost, knowing they will always get x
percent profit on top of that. I have seen the same
behavior in government work.

Costs must be "prudent," and costs that are excessive or
unnecessary are disallowed. Utilities are entitled to a fair
return but cannot price gouge, cannot gold-plate the power
plant, etc., etc. Well regulated industries produce
reasonable rates and reasonable returns, and around here, the
CUB rides herd on the rate-making process, as do the huge
industrial power users.

Remember Enron? California electricity deregulation? How's
that deregulation thing working for you?


That's what Governor Gray Davis screwed up, creating a big new
bureacracy and not allowing long-term contract. That was
stupid and needless to say, resulted in blackouts. We called
the Gray-Outs in his "honor".


Texas has a species of deregulation, but even it is not free
market.


You have choice there and thus they have WAY better rates than
we do.

https://www.texaselectricityratings....ctricity-rates

Multiply the TX rates by three and you get the CA rates.

Oregon has lower rates than Texas, and some of the Oregon PUDs
have even lower than average rates. That's Peoples' Utility
Districts. The opposite of private, for profit.


You guys get low cost nuclear power and hydro power from your
northern neighbor. Here in CA much must come from renewables, no
matter what the cost or the consequences.

No nuclear in Oregon, not since Trojan was decommissioned. I'm almost
positive that all the power generated at the Richland nuke plant in
Washington goes solely to Washington PUDs. Bonneville hydro goes to
Oregon PUDs and not private utilities.

Portland General Electric is other hydro, coal, NG, wind and
purchased in the market.
https://www.portlandgeneral.com/our-...te-electricity


For a dose of reality see figure 8:

https://www.opb.org/news/blog/ecotro...ewable-energy/


Free market is cable TV, and look how that's working out.


It's not free, it's chartered just like electricity. Out here
only Comcast/Xfinity is allowed to lay cable TV. However, one
is free not to use it. Our family doesn't use it. This is
slightly different with electricity.

Is it not rate regulated.
http://consumerwiki.dca.ca.gov/wiki/...ble_Television
I don't know what they do in California, but often cities will
grant a "franchise" just to reduce the number of right-of-way
users, but you're right, it is not entirely free market. But then
again, many markets have natural entry barriers that produce the
same result. The key point is that it is not rate regulated, and
you can see what happens to rates. I don't have cable TV either,
and it is elective unlike electricity -- which means electrical
rates would skyrocket even more.


When I inquired about cable Internet from another provider I was
told "We aren't permitted to provide that at your location, that's
Comcast turf" (Comcast was what Xfinity was called back then or
maybe they aquired them, don't remember).

[...]


You're changing subjects. Show me one private mass transit
company.


That's easy:

https://www.citylab.com/transportati...k-so-well/389/





Is that enough "mass"?

In Germany I used a lot of private transit buses and trains and
it worked well. They were often cleaner than those of the
munis. Unfortunately I can't find useful stuff in English from
more recent times, just in German:

https://www.handelsblatt.com/unterne...7ufYbSq232-ap5





This kind of sums it up, quote "Die Konkurrenten fahren der Deutschen
Bahn davon. 33 Prozent der Leistung im Nahverkehr auf der
Schiene werden in diesem Jahr durch Züge von Abellio, Keolis &
Co. gefahren" which translates into "The [private] competition
is pulling away from the [government-owned] German Railroad.
33 percent of the passenger load in local rail transit this
year will be handled by Abellio, Keolis & Co". I added comments
in square brackets because most readers here won't know which
is private and which is publicly owned.

This is one of the coolest private transit companies where you
can ride a really classic bus if you get a group together:

https://www.svg-busreisen.de/die-svg/ueber-uns/die-svg/
https://www.svg-busreisen.de/die-svg...ward-oldiebus/

They also run the school buses in that area. Sorry, they also
have no site in English. If you want to decipher something let
me know.

Smaller ones in the US:

https://www.ctpost.com/local/article...r-12627172.php





Long story short we must broaden our horizon and look across the fence,
to other countries. Just like they (and certainly Germany)
could learn a ton from US bike path designers. If they were
willing ...

Sure, throw in the airport shuttle bus, taxis, uber, lyft, etc.
That's not the local bus to Cameron Park, which would cost you
$20 to Sacto (or more) if it were run as a private business. In
fact, it would not even exist because it would not generate
enough revenue to stay in business.


So why does that work in Germany and other countries? Those are
not cherry-picking operations, they run the gamut.

If it could work here, it would work here. There is no prohibition
on running a bus company . . . into bankruptcy. It's been done and
was done in my fair city. Cost structure is more favorable here than
in Germany because of low fuel cost, low minimum wage, low taxes,
absence of unions, low regulation under state DOT and federal MCSA
(ICC is gone). You tell me why it doesn't work here. Could it be
because the returns are too low to interest investors? Gee. I wonder.


That's the big question. Union protectionism? Got no operating permit of
the local governments wanted to much money for it? Who knows.


Hey, maybe its because people would rather drive their cars!


That might have a lot to do with it but then again Germany is also a
car-centric country.


Where there is a market, it does work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoltBu...regon_2014.jpg


Ah, those Texans are conquering your turf as well.


(BTW, in front of my office building. I have to dodge those things).
We also have private buses up to the mountains for skiing and airport
shuttle buses, etc.


Those are what could be construed as cherry-picking. What I meant was a
full blown system that includes not so lucrative routes all the way to
Outer Podunk. A sysme that enables most residents not to even have a car.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-08-30 08:36, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/30/2018 9:43 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-30 07:31, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 4:16:40 PM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-08-29 15:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-7,
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 09:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 7:22:25 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote: snip
-snips continue along-

You guys get low cost nuclear power and hydro power from
your northern neighbor. Here in CA much must come from
renewables, no matter what the cost or the consequences.


Why ever would Oregon import power from WA or BC?
https://www.oregon.gov/energy/energy...ydropower.aspx

"Oregon is the second highest hydropower-producing state in the nation,
behind only Washington. (U.S. Energy Information Administration,
February 2016)"


Yet they do import, including nuclear-generation electricity.

https://www.opb.org/news/blog/ecotro...ewable-energy/

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-08-30 15:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/29/2018 8:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 16:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Fixing public transit is fine by me. But I don't think the problem is
the detail design of the bike racks.


That is one of the (many) details. And yes, that does need fixing.
Else people will keep using their pickup trucks.

It's a tiny detail for a microscopic minority or customers: those who
want to take a bike on the bus, have bought a bike that doesn't fit the
racks to their satisfaction, and are incapable of fastening the bike
without whining on newsgroups.


Priority number one is getting a hand on unruly passengers and safety.
Even if it's just perceived safety. I don't get scared by a bum
screaming profanities but most others do.

Most engineers address priority number one before getting lost in the
weeds on priority number 86. Or whatever.


I could have almost bet your would not understand this.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-08-30 16:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/30/2018 10:23 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 17:41, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 16:39:36 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

I have outlined a few points that can be fixed with a reasonable
effort if there is a willingness to do so. And yes, one of them is to
foster bike transport. Case in point: When I told two other riders
that I carried my bike onto a light rail train they immediately got
Connect Transit Cards like the one I have. It's the snowball effect.

Sorry, it's way too soon to call that a "snowball effect." It's more
like a couple of snowflakes landing together. We don't know whether, or
how often, your buddies may actually use the service.


On already does. The other has the same issue I and many other riders
do, bike does not fit in rack. Actually that's the case for all three of
us. Because of our Martian super-exotic bikes with the big flux
capacitors and all.


... And there's
certainly no proof the concept is going to "snowball" beyond them.


Think about how snowballs start. Now this time think in detail before
letting off a fast knee-jerk post.


And why would it? The possibility has been there for years, no? There
really aren't that many people who have been waiting for Joerg as a
messiah to be emulated.


That s the case with just about everything. The fact that your
outstretched hand goes up if you angle it and turn around fast was
always obvious. So why didn't the Romans have airlines?


And how about the 72 year old accompanying me who cannot hold it at
17-18mph for hours? Just leave him behind on the trail?

But 17 - 18mph? Lets see, that is 27.3 - 28.9kpk... Professional MTB
racers average about 30kph https://bit.ly/2wpdSen you guys must be
racers.


Wrong.

https://www.road-bike.co.uk/articles/average-speed.php

Quote "Reasonable experience, medium (say 40 miles): average around
16-19 mph". Then, quote "Plenty of cyclists can maintain 25+ mph over
long distances".

First, that's ROAD.cc so it doesn't apply to the _trails_ on which you
worried about the 72 year old.


And again you didn't read carefully. I was talking about light rail in
this sub-thread. Light rail obviously isn't possible near MTB trails. It
goes to Sacramentro and we used the American River Bike Path, as usual.


... (Geez, to people really live to be that
old? ;-)


Roberta McCain is 106 and will attend her son's funeral. One of my great
grandpas died peacefully in his sleep shortly before his 103rd birthday.
At 95 he rode a motorcycle.


Second, back in the day I could average 16 - 19 mph for 40 miles. But in
our club's ratings, that would be between a "brisk" and a "fast" pace.
There's never been a time a majority of our club members could do that,
and as the members have aged, the percentage that could has dropped.


You guys need to train up. Seriously. When I am going that speed on the
Folsom South Canal Bike Path I have to stay to the right because once in
a while ... WHOOSH ... some young whippersnapper zooms by on his carbon
racer. They can keep it above 20mph, something I no longer can do for
the whole 31mi trip. The 16-19mph speed result in me being quite tired
in the evening but its a healthy tiredness.


Oh, and your quote of the "plenty of cyclists" should have included the
rest of the sentence: "... especially if conditions are flat or they are
cycling in groups." Flat ground in a paceline with strong riders is not
normal riding.


I never ride paceline and none of my cycling friends does. We consider
that risky like tailgating is in cars. As for flat, yesterday I rode
this with two friends:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvI1W7kmc4o

Nothing flat here. Guess what, we met other cyclists! About the "not
many spectacular features" this rider is wrong. One just has to take the
time to look and use offshoot trails:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork1.JPG
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork2.JPG

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:13:51 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
snip

No nuclear in Oregon, not since Trojan was decommissioned. I'm almost
positive that all the power generated at the Richland nuke plant in
Washington goes solely to Washington PUDs. Bonneville hydro goes to
Oregon PUDs and not private utilities.

Portland General Electric is other hydro, coal, NG, wind and
purchased in the market.
https://www.portlandgeneral.com/our-...te-electricity


For a dose of reality see figure 8:

https://www.opb.org/news/blog/ecotro...ewable-energy/

No surprises. The coal mix is somewhat unknown because of purchasing contracts. The Oregon PUDs are mostly hydro from Bonneville. The private companies like PGE use a mix, including from coal plants in Oregon or purchased from out of state. Bonneville has always exported. All my hydro comes from dams owned by PGE and not DOE.

snip

That's the big question. Union protectionism? Got no operating permit of
the local governments wanted to much money for it? Who knows.

The answer is obvious: it doesn't pay.

Hey, maybe its because people would rather drive their cars!


That might have a lot to do with it but then again Germany is also a
car-centric country.


Where there is a market, it does work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoltBu...regon_2014.jpg


Ah, those Texans are conquering your turf as well.

Greyhound (now) has its corporate offices in Texas, but it is a Delaware corporation and is owned by a company in Aberdeen, Scotland -- my ancestral homeland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FirstGroup

Globalism! Gaaaak! The evil Scottish conspiracy is trying to take over the world! Pretty soon we'll all be wearing wool skirts and throwing telephone poles around. Lord Trump needs to crack down on those dress-wearing interlopers! We should have a 1,000% tariff on haggis.



(BTW, in front of my office building. I have to dodge those things).
We also have private buses up to the mountains for skiing and airport
shuttle buses, etc.


Those are what could be construed as cherry-picking. What I meant was a
full blown system that includes not so lucrative routes all the way to
Outer Podunk. A sysme that enables most residents not to even have a car.

Not going to happen in a market economy. The fares would be too high for either local users who have to subsidize rural users or for rural users who have to pay actual cost plus ROI. There might be a way to do this by selling losses to investors -- running the system as a tax shelter, but I'll let the tax accountants figure that one out. The bottom line is that barriers to entry are not that high and certainly lower than in Germany, and if mass transit could be done profitably in a large US urban area by private business, it would be. People are always looking for a way to make a buck. It might work elsewhere in a dense European city, but it has been tried and failed here in PDX.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 8/31/2018 11:20 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-30 15:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/29/2018 8:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 16:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Fixing public transit is fine by me. But I don't think the problem is
the detail design of the bike racks.


That is one of the (many) details. And yes, that does need fixing.
Else people will keep using their pickup trucks.

It's a tiny detail for a microscopic minority or customers: those who
want to take a bike on the bus, have bought a bike that doesn't fit the
racks to their satisfaction, and are incapable of fastening the bike
without whining on newsgroups.


Priority number one is getting a hand on unruly passengers and safety.
Even if it's just perceived safety. I don't get scared by a bum
screaming profanities but most others do.

Most engineers address priority number one before getting lost in the
weeds on priority number 86. Or whatever.


I could have almost bet your would not understand this.

You're right, I don't understand why changing the bike racks a little
bit will generate hundreds of new bus riders - or whatever the heck
you're now claiming.

But that's OK. A lot of us don't understand your thinking.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 9:38:46 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/31/2018 11:20 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-30 15:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/29/2018 8:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 16:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Fixing public transit is fine by me. But I don't think the problem is
the detail design of the bike racks.


That is one of the (many) details. And yes, that does need fixing.
Else people will keep using their pickup trucks.

It's a tiny detail for a microscopic minority or customers: those who
want to take a bike on the bus, have bought a bike that doesn't fit the
racks to their satisfaction, and are incapable of fastening the bike
without whining on newsgroups.


Priority number one is getting a hand on unruly passengers and safety..
Even if it's just perceived safety. I don't get scared by a bum
screaming profanities but most others do.

Most engineers address priority number one before getting lost in the
weeds on priority number 86. Or whatever.


I could have almost bet your would not understand this.

You're right, I don't understand why changing the bike racks a little
bit will generate hundreds of new bus riders - or whatever the heck
you're now claiming.

But that's OK. A lot of us don't understand your thinking.

There is also the assumption that everyone else has it wrong or has not thought it through. Excluding some bikes or limiting the number of bikes is a choice. https://bikeportland.org/2007/12/18/...for-buses-6213 https://bikeportland.org/2013/07/15/...us-views-90473 Long wheelbase bikes tend to block headlights and turn signals, and TriMet has excluded bikes with panniers and handlebar baskets or bags that obstruct the driver's view down.

Joerg also tends to think every issue is new because he just discovered it. In 1991, BTA got racks on TriMet buses, mostly due to individual efforts from our fearless leaders, Jim Ferner and Rex Burkholder, who then created an organization and a board (including me) to pursue bicycling related transportation issues.

There were no Townies or giant 29ers at the time, and TriMet adopted the national standard for racks, which works for most people who use them. If Joerg wants to change things in the bustling metropolis of Cameron Park, he should do like we did 27 years ago and work for change. But then we'll hear about evil government, incompetence and intransigence. Unions! Or it will trend to a discussion of microbrewing or awesome trails and trains not going to trails, etc., etc. It always goes sideways.


-- Jay Beattie.

On 2018-08-31 08:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:13:51 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: snip


[...]


That's the big question. Union protectionism? Got no operating
permit of the local governments wanted to much money for it? Who
knows.

The answer is obvious: it doesn't pay.


So why does it in Germany?



Hey, maybe its because people would rather drive their cars!


That might have a lot to do with it but then again Germany is also
a car-centric country.


Where there is a market, it does work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoltBu...regon_2014.jpg




Ah, those Texans are conquering your turf as well.

Greyhound (now) has its corporate offices in Texas, but it is a
Delaware corporation and is owned by a company in Aberdeen, Scotland
-- my ancestral homeland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FirstGroup

Globalism! Gaaaak! The evil Scottish conspiracy is trying to take
over the world! Pretty soon we'll all be wearing wool skirts and
throwing telephone poles around. Lord Trump needs to crack down on
those dress-wearing interlopers! We should have a 1,000% tariff on
haggis.


No, no, he can't do that. He owns a golf course in Scotland.


(BTW, in front of my office building. I have to dodge those
things). We also have private buses up to the mountains for
skiing and airport shuttle buses, etc.


Those are what could be construed as cherry-picking. What I meant
was a full blown system that includes not so lucrative routes all
the way to Outer Podunk. A sysme that enables most residents not to
even have a car.

Not going to happen in a market economy. The fares would be too high
for either local users who have to subsidize rural users or for rural
users who have to pay actual cost plus ROI. There might be a way to
do this by selling losses to investors -- running the system as a tax
shelter, but I'll let the tax accountants figure that one out. The
bottom line is that barriers to entry are not that high and certainly
lower than in Germany, and if mass transit could be done profitably
in a large US urban area by private business, it would be. People are
always looking for a way to make a buck. It might work elsewhere in
a dense European city, but it has been tried and failed here in PDX.


The German example I brought was from an area much less densely
populated than Portland. AFAIK they even operate ferries in the system.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/