Bus racks

On 2018-08-31 10:27, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 9:38:46 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 8/31/2018 11:20 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-30 15:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/29/2018 8:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 16:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Fixing public transit is fine by me. But I don't think the
problem is the detail design of the bike racks.


That is one of the (many) details. And yes, that does need
fixing. Else people will keep using their pickup trucks.

It's a tiny detail for a microscopic minority or customers:
those who want to take a bike on the bus, have bought a bike
that doesn't fit the racks to their satisfaction, and are
incapable of fastening the bike without whining on newsgroups.


Priority number one is getting a hand on unruly passengers
and safety. Even if it's just perceived safety. I don't get
scared by a bum screaming profanities but most others do.

Most engineers address priority number one before getting lost
in the weeds on priority number 86. Or whatever.


I could have almost bet your would not understand this.

You're right, I don't understand why changing the bike racks a
little bit will generate hundreds of new bus riders - or whatever
the heck you're now claiming.

But that's OK. A lot of us don't understand your thinking.

There is also the assumption that everyone else has it wrong or has
not thought it through. Excluding some bikes or limiting the number
of bikes is a choice.
https://bikeportland.org/2007/12/18/...for-buses-6213
https://bikeportland.org/2013/07/15/...us-views-90473
Long wheelbase bikes tend to block headlights and turn signals, and
TriMet has excluded bikes with panniers and handlebar baskets or bags
that obstruct the driver's view down.


In El Dorado Transits response they said they were also considering
increasing to three slot racks and had the same concern ablout head
lights and turn signals. My MTB buddy knew the obvious when he built a
dirt bike rack for the back of his small car ... drum roll ... a light
bar! Tada ...


Joerg also tends to think every issue is new because he just
discovered it. In 1991, BTA got racks on TriMet buses, mostly due to
individual efforts from our fearless leaders, Jim Ferner and Rex
Burkholder, who then created an organization and a board (including
me) to pursue bicycling related transportation issues.

There were no Townies or giant 29ers at the time, and TriMet adopted
the national standard for racks, which works for most people who use
them. If Joerg wants to change things in the bustling metropolis of
Cameron Park, he should do like we did 27 years ago and work for
change. But then we'll hear about evil government, incompetence and
intransigence. Unions! Or it will trend to a discussion of
microbrewing or awesome trails and trains not going to trails, etc.,
etc. It always goes sideways.


Nope, out transit agency is now looking into that issue. I guess they
realized that this is not 27 years ago but 2018 where 27-1/2" MTB are
increasing in market share, big time. People in Placerville and Cameron
Park who have only one bike usually have an MTB, and that's the main
operating area of this transit agency.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:36:09 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 08:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:13:51 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: snip


[...]


That's the big question. Union protectionism? Got no operating
permit of the local governments wanted to much money for it? Who
knows.

The answer is obvious: it doesn't pay.


So why does it in Germany?



Hey, maybe its because people would rather drive their cars!


That might have a lot to do with it but then again Germany is also
a car-centric country.


Where there is a market, it does work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoltBu...regon_2014.jpg




Ah, those Texans are conquering your turf as well.

Greyhound (now) has its corporate offices in Texas, but it is a
Delaware corporation and is owned by a company in Aberdeen, Scotland
-- my ancestral homeland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FirstGroup

Globalism! Gaaaak! The evil Scottish conspiracy is trying to take
over the world! Pretty soon we'll all be wearing wool skirts and
throwing telephone poles around. Lord Trump needs to crack down on
those dress-wearing interlopers! We should have a 1,000% tariff on
haggis.


No, no, he can't do that. He owns a golf course in Scotland.


(BTW, in front of my office building. I have to dodge those
things). We also have private buses up to the mountains for
skiing and airport shuttle buses, etc.


Those are what could be construed as cherry-picking. What I meant
was a full blown system that includes not so lucrative routes all
the way to Outer Podunk. A sysme that enables most residents not to
even have a car.

Not going to happen in a market economy. The fares would be too high
for either local users who have to subsidize rural users or for rural
users who have to pay actual cost plus ROI. There might be a way to
do this by selling losses to investors -- running the system as a tax
shelter, but I'll let the tax accountants figure that one out. The
bottom line is that barriers to entry are not that high and certainly
lower than in Germany, and if mass transit could be done profitably
in a large US urban area by private business, it would be. People are
always looking for a way to make a buck. It might work elsewhere in
a dense European city, but it has been tried and failed here in PDX.


The German example I brought was from an area much less densely
populated than Portland. AFAIK they even operate ferries in the system.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Germany is a comparatively small country with a large population. Distances are not so great there compared to many areas of the USA.

Again, if Germany is so gosh darn great, then why have so many Germans emigrated?

Cheers

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:43:38 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 10:27, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 9:38:46 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 8/31/2018 11:20 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-30 15:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/29/2018 8:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 16:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Fixing public transit is fine by me. But I don't think the
problem is the detail design of the bike racks.


That is one of the (many) details. And yes, that does need
fixing. Else people will keep using their pickup trucks.

It's a tiny detail for a microscopic minority or customers:
those who want to take a bike on the bus, have bought a bike
that doesn't fit the racks to their satisfaction, and are
incapable of fastening the bike without whining on newsgroups.


Priority number one is getting a hand on unruly passengers
and safety. Even if it's just perceived safety. I don't get
scared by a bum screaming profanities but most others do.

Most engineers address priority number one before getting lost
in the weeds on priority number 86. Or whatever.


I could have almost bet your would not understand this.

You're right, I don't understand why changing the bike racks a
little bit will generate hundreds of new bus riders - or whatever
the heck you're now claiming.

But that's OK. A lot of us don't understand your thinking.

There is also the assumption that everyone else has it wrong or has
not thought it through. Excluding some bikes or limiting the number
of bikes is a choice.
https://bikeportland.org/2007/12/18/...for-buses-6213
https://bikeportland.org/2013/07/15/...us-views-90473
Long wheelbase bikes tend to block headlights and turn signals, and
TriMet has excluded bikes with panniers and handlebar baskets or bags
that obstruct the driver's view down.


In El Dorado Transits response they said they were also considering
increasing to three slot racks and had the same concern ablout head
lights and turn signals. My MTB buddy knew the obvious when he built a
dirt bike rack for the back of his small car ... drum roll ... a light
bar! Tada ...


Joerg also tends to think every issue is new because he just
discovered it. In 1991, BTA got racks on TriMet buses, mostly due to
individual efforts from our fearless leaders, Jim Ferner and Rex
Burkholder, who then created an organization and a board (including
me) to pursue bicycling related transportation issues.

There were no Townies or giant 29ers at the time, and TriMet adopted
the national standard for racks, which works for most people who use
them. If Joerg wants to change things in the bustling metropolis of
Cameron Park, he should do like we did 27 years ago and work for
change. But then we'll hear about evil government, incompetence and
intransigence. Unions! Or it will trend to a discussion of
microbrewing or awesome trails and trains not going to trails, etc.,
etc. It always goes sideways.


Nope, out transit agency is now looking into that issue. I guess they
realized that this is not 27 years ago but 2018 where 27-1/2" MTB are
increasing in market share, big time. People in Placerville and Cameron
Park who have only one bike usually have an MTB, and that's the main
operating area of this transit agency.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Yet the videos you post only show 26" wheeled MTBs. Where are those 27.5 and 29 MTBs?

Cheers

On 2018-08-31 11:06, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:36:09 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 08:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:13:51 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
snip


[...]


[...]


(BTW, in front of my office building. I have to dodge those
things). We also have private buses up to the mountains for
skiing and airport shuttle buses, etc.


Those are what could be construed as cherry-picking. What I
meant was a full blown system that includes not so lucrative
routes all the way to Outer Podunk. A sysme that enables most
residents not to even have a car.

Not going to happen in a market economy. The fares would be too
high for either local users who have to subsidize rural users or
for rural users who have to pay actual cost plus ROI. There might
be a way to do this by selling losses to investors -- running the
system as a tax shelter, but I'll let the tax accountants figure
that one out. The bottom line is that barriers to entry are not
that high and certainly lower than in Germany, and if mass
transit could be done profitably in a large US urban area by
private business, it would be. People are always looking for a
way to make a buck. It might work elsewhere in a dense European
city, but it has been tried and failed here in PDX.


The German example I brought was from an area much less densely
populated than Portland. AFAIK they even operate ferries in the
system.


Germany is a comparatively small country with a large population.
Distances are not so great there compared to many areas of the USA.


As I wrote, I picked an example (on purpose) from an area that is less
densely populated than where I live now.


Again, if Germany is so gosh darn great, then why have so many
Germans emigrated?


Because it wasn't always great and still isn't in many aspects. One
cannot generalize. For example, public transportation is clearly better
there but bike paths and even more so MTB trails are definitely not.
Before moving to the US I would have never dreamed that bicycle
infrastructure could become better here than in Germany but it has.
Agencies in the various contries could learn from each other but there
is often a lack of willingness.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:03:16 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 11:06, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:36:09 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 08:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:13:51 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
snip


[...]


[...]


(BTW, in front of my office building. I have to dodge those
things). We also have private buses up to the mountains for
skiing and airport shuttle buses, etc.


Those are what could be construed as cherry-picking. What I
meant was a full blown system that includes not so lucrative
routes all the way to Outer Podunk. A sysme that enables most
residents not to even have a car.

Not going to happen in a market economy. The fares would be too
high for either local users who have to subsidize rural users or
for rural users who have to pay actual cost plus ROI. There might
be a way to do this by selling losses to investors -- running the
system as a tax shelter, but I'll let the tax accountants figure
that one out. The bottom line is that barriers to entry are not
that high and certainly lower than in Germany, and if mass
transit could be done profitably in a large US urban area by
private business, it would be. People are always looking for a
way to make a buck. It might work elsewhere in a dense European
city, but it has been tried and failed here in PDX.


The German example I brought was from an area much less densely
populated than Portland. AFAIK they even operate ferries in the
system.


Germany is a comparatively small country with a large population.
Distances are not so great there compared to many areas of the USA.


As I wrote, I picked an example (on purpose) from an area that is less
densely populated than where I live now.


Again, if Germany is so gosh darn great, then why have so many
Germans emigrated?


Because it wasn't always great and still isn't in many aspects. One
cannot generalize. For example, public transportation is clearly better
there but bike paths and even more so MTB trails are definitely not.
Before moving to the US I would have never dreamed that bicycle
infrastructure could become better here than in Germany but it has.
Agencies in the various contries could learn from each other but there
is often a lack of willingness.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I wonder what would happen if to create a new bicycling infrastructure or bus/rail link that would benefit mainly bicyclists, if bicyclists were told they alone would have to pay for it?

Cheers

On 2018-08-31 11:08, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:43:38 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 10:27, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


Joerg also tends to think every issue is new because he just
discovered it. In 1991, BTA got racks on TriMet buses, mostly due to
individual efforts from our fearless leaders, Jim Ferner and Rex
Burkholder, who then created an organization and a board (including
me) to pursue bicycling related transportation issues.

There were no Townies or giant 29ers at the time, and TriMet adopted
the national standard for racks, which works for most people who use
them. If Joerg wants to change things in the bustling metropolis of
Cameron Park, he should do like we did 27 years ago and work for
change. But then we'll hear about evil government, incompetence and
intransigence. Unions! Or it will trend to a discussion of
microbrewing or awesome trails and trains not going to trails, etc.,
etc. It always goes sideways.


Nope, out transit agency is now looking into that issue. I guess they
realized that this is not 27 years ago but 2018 where 27-1/2" MTB are
increasing in market share, big time. People in Placerville and Cameron
Park who have only one bike usually have an MTB, and that's the main
operating area of this transit agency.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Yet the videos you post only show 26" wheeled MTBs. Where are those 27.5 and 29 MTBs?


Everywhere. Yesterday on the singletrack Folsom-Lotus the only 26" MTBs
were those of my two friends. Bikes that are more than 10 years old. One
has a double-crown fork and also does not fit into the bus racks. All
other riders had 27-1/2" and 29" MTBs despite the fact that part of that
route is downhiller-turf.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-08-31 12:08, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:03:16 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 11:06, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

[...]


Again, if Germany is so gosh darn great, then why have so many
Germans emigrated?


Because it wasn't always great and still isn't in many aspects.
One cannot generalize. For example, public transportation is
clearly better there but bike paths and even more so MTB trails are
definitely not. Before moving to the US I would have never dreamed
that bicycle infrastructure could become better here than in
Germany but it has. Agencies in the various contries could learn
from each other but there is often a lack of willingness.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I wonder what would happen if to create a new bicycling
infrastructure or bus/rail link that would benefit mainly bicyclists,
if bicyclists were told they alone would have to pay for it?


Me and my friends would tell them not to build any infrastructure, which
means they shall also not obstruct us by roads, of course (else there is
an obligation to accommodate). For a real cyclist nature provides
sufficient infrastructure. This is right here in town and I use it often:

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/CoachLane1.JPG

Oh, and add a beer garden 30 miles later, with salty pretzels and all :-)

Case in point: The El Dorado Trail, one of my frequent routes. There
isn't much infrastructure or maintenance other than by volunteers yet
this is the only truly bikeable connection to Placerville. One needs to
have an MTB and at least basic trail riding skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_T2c4AXaCY

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:08:32 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 11:08, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:43:38 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 10:27, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


Joerg also tends to think every issue is new because he just
discovered it. In 1991, BTA got racks on TriMet buses, mostly due to
individual efforts from our fearless leaders, Jim Ferner and Rex
Burkholder, who then created an organization and a board (including
me) to pursue bicycling related transportation issues.

There were no Townies or giant 29ers at the time, and TriMet adopted
the national standard for racks, which works for most people who use
them. If Joerg wants to change things in the bustling metropolis of
Cameron Park, he should do like we did 27 years ago and work for
change. But then we'll hear about evil government, incompetence and
intransigence. Unions! Or it will trend to a discussion of
microbrewing or awesome trails and trains not going to trails, etc.,
etc. It always goes sideways.


Nope, out transit agency is now looking into that issue. I guess they
realized that this is not 27 years ago but 2018 where 27-1/2" MTB are
increasing in market share, big time. People in Placerville and Cameron
Park who have only one bike usually have an MTB, and that's the main
operating area of this transit agency.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Yet the videos you post only show 26" wheeled MTBs. Where are those 27.5 and 29 MTBs?


Everywhere. Yesterday on the singletrack Folsom-Lotus the only 26" MTBs
were those of my two friends. Bikes that are more than 10 years old. One
has a double-crown fork and also does not fit into the bus racks. All
other riders had 27-1/2" and 29" MTBs despite the fact that part of that
route is downhiller-turf.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If 27.5 and 29ers were so common we'd expect you to post a video of them.

Cheers

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 4:17:42 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 12:08, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:03:16 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 11:06, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

[...]


Again, if Germany is so gosh darn great, then why have so many
Germans emigrated?


Because it wasn't always great and still isn't in many aspects.
One cannot generalize. For example, public transportation is
clearly better there but bike paths and even more so MTB trails are
definitely not. Before moving to the US I would have never dreamed
that bicycle infrastructure could become better here than in
Germany but it has. Agencies in the various contries could learn
from each other but there is often a lack of willingness.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I wonder what would happen if to create a new bicycling
infrastructure or bus/rail link that would benefit mainly bicyclists,
if bicyclists were told they alone would have to pay for it?


Me and my friends would tell them not to build any infrastructure, which
means they shall also not obstruct us by roads, of course (else there is
an obligation to accommodate). For a real cyclist nature provides
sufficient infrastructure. This is right here in town and I use it often:

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/CoachLane1.JPG

Oh, and add a beer garden 30 miles later, with salty pretzels and all :-)

Case in point: The El Dorado Trail, one of my frequent routes. There
isn't much infrastructure or maintenance other than by volunteers yet
this is the only truly bikeable connection to Placerville. One needs to
have an MTB and at least basic trail riding skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_T2c4AXaCY

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Then why in blazes do you want bigger bike racks on buses?

Cheers

On 2018-08-31 13:57, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 4:17:42 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 12:08, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:03:16 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-31 11:06, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

[...]


Again, if Germany is so gosh darn great, then why have so many
Germans emigrated?


Because it wasn't always great and still isn't in many aspects.
One cannot generalize. For example, public transportation is
clearly better there but bike paths and even more so MTB trails are
definitely not. Before moving to the US I would have never dreamed
that bicycle infrastructure could become better here than in
Germany but it has. Agencies in the various contries could learn
from each other but there is often a lack of willingness.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I wonder what would happen if to create a new bicycling
infrastructure or bus/rail link that would benefit mainly bicyclists,
if bicyclists were told they alone would have to pay for it?


Me and my friends would tell them not to build any infrastructure, which
means they shall also not obstruct us by roads, of course (else there is
an obligation to accommodate). For a real cyclist nature provides
sufficient infrastructure. This is right here in town and I use it often:

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/CoachLane1.JPG

Oh, and add a beer garden 30 miles later, with salty pretzels and all :-)

Case in point: The El Dorado Trail, one of my frequent routes. There
isn't much infrastructure or maintenance other than by volunteers yet
this is the only truly bikeable connection to Placerville. One needs to
have an MTB and at least basic trail riding skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_T2c4AXaCY

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Then why in blazes do you want bigger bike racks on buses?


As I wrote several times now, because there are people who'd like to
come along on a ride but who do not have the endurance or trail skills
to finish such a ride in time. Often I cannot leave before 11:30am but
need to be back by 4:30pm. Which I can do but they can't.

It is a good thing if we as more seasoned cyclists convince others to
ride along. However, if their first experience is a total bonk and utter
exhaustion or, worse, a nasty crash they will throw in the towel. I
recently had that happen. Got carried away for a minute, the rider
behind me tried to keep up and took a bad spill. Turned around to look
for him and helped fix his bike. He said he is done trail-riding.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/