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#21
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 23/09/18 17:23, JNugent wrote:
On 23/09/2018 16:34, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 11:23, wrote: Road.cc highlights a very salient piece of CCTV evidence in its piece. https://road.cc/content/news/248771-...ed-karla-roman "Northcott’s barrister, Harry Bentley, said the coach driver was "desperately sorry" for Roman's death “and at times he has considered ending his own life because of it."" It's necessary to wonder how much his sentence was reduced by this grovelling. (Compared to 18 months for Charlie Alliston for not grovelling - and the court seeming to accept that it was the victim that hadn't paid attention.) Pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity (that is, once the charges and evidence have been made available and the strength of the prosecution case thereby known) and saving the Crown the expense of a trial is always taken into account as a mitigating factor. When did Alliston plead guilty? By any chance do you put posts you read through an English to Scouse translator, compose your replies in Scouse and translate them back to English before posting? If you came clean it would explain a great deal. a) The question I raised was about grovelling, not about admission of guilt. b) The coach driver pleaded not guilty but was found guilty by a jury. Accord'n ter de Daily Mail. |
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#22
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On Sunday, September 23, 2018 at 7:11:00 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
b) The coach driver pleaded not guilty but was found guilty by a jury. Accord'n ter de Daily Mail. Let's put that straight now, shall we? QUOTE: The coach driver who killed London cyclist Karla Roman when he turned left across her path has been jailed for 15 months for causing her death by careless driving, reports the London Evening Standard (link is external). The court heard that Barry Northcott, who ***denied the charges*** (EMPHASIS MINE), only learnt that he had run her over when a passenger told him what had happened. https://road.cc/content/news/248771-...ed-karla-roman |
#23
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 23/09/2018 19:10, TMS320 wrote:
On 23/09/18 17:23, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 16:34, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 11:23, wrote: Road.cc highlights a very salient piece of CCTV evidence in its piece. https://road.cc/content/news/248771-...ed-karla-roman "Northcott’s barrister, Harry Bentley, said the coach driver was "desperately sorry" for Roman's death “and at times he has considered ending his own life because of it."" It's necessary to wonder how much his sentence was reduced by this Â*grovelling. (Compared to 18 months for Charlie Alliston for not grovelling - and the court seeming to accept that it was the victim Â*that hadn't paid attention.) Pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity (that is, once the charges and evidence have been made available and the strength of the Â*prosecution case thereby known) and saving the Crown the expense of a trial is always taken into account as a mitigating factor. When did Alliston plead guilty? By any chance do you put posts you read through an English to Scouse translator, compose your replies in Scouse and translate them back to English before posting? If you came clean it would explain a great deal. a) The question I raised was about grovelling, not about admission of guilt. The "grovelling" you referred to was as effective an admission of guilt (in the form of a fairly extreme expression of remorse as well as an admission that he broke the rules on stop lines at traffic lights) as anyone could wish for, and certainly not designed as an effective line of defence. But did you think the driver literally prostrated himself in court, with his arms outstretched begging for mercy? b) The coach driver pleaded not guilty but was found guilty by a jury. Accord'n ter de Daily Mail. After he had effectively admitted the offence in his own evidence. By way of contrast, the "young gentleman" on the brakeless bike blamed the victim and completely exonerated himself, praising his own skills to the skies and contrasting them sharply with the lack of skill on the part of the woman he killed. There's the difference, even if you don't want, and will refuse, to see and acknowledge it (which I confidently predict). |
#24
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 23/09/2018 18:48, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 16:44, Simon Jester wrote: On Sunday, September 23, 2018 at 11:23:38 AM UTC+1, wrote: Road.cc highlights a very salient piece of CCTV evidence in its piece. QUOTE: "CCTV footage revealed that Northcott ***illegally*** (emphasis mine+) entered an advanced stop line - also known as a 'bike box' - at a junction. When interviewed by police, he admitted that he did this regularly to avoid being "swarmed by cyclists." END QUOTE. + "Illegally" entering the ASL would, of course, mean that he was caught on CCTV driving into the box while the traffic light was at STOP or red as practically any other situation would be legal. He even ADMITTED regularly driving into the ASLs illegally, in court under oath! https://road.cc/content/news/248771-...ed-karla-roman Motorists are not very bright. There was a case where a Taxi driver admitted to swerving at a cyclist. In his defence he said "I only meant to scare him". Fortunately the jury recognised that deliberately driving a motor vehicle at a primary road user was an admission of guilt and found him guilty of Death by Dangerous Driving. You failed all your attempts at the driving test, then? Jester is a well known pillock and is not worthy of a reply. He's obviously not bright enough to have become a "motorist", or to realise that if he had, he would be describing himself as "not very bright". |
#25
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On Sunday, September 23, 2018 at 6:48:05 PM UTC+1, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 16:44, Simon Jester wrote: On Sunday, September 23, 2018 at 11:23:38 AM UTC+1, wrote: Road.cc highlights a very salient piece of CCTV evidence in its piece. QUOTE: "CCTV footage revealed that Northcott ***illegally*** (emphasis mine+) entered an advanced stop line - also known as a 'bike box' - at a junction. When interviewed by police, he admitted that he did this regularly to avoid being "swarmed by cyclists." END QUOTE. + "Illegally" entering the ASL would, of course, mean that he was caught on CCTV driving into the box while the traffic light was at STOP or red as practically any other situation would be legal. He even ADMITTED regularly driving into the ASLs illegally, in court under oath! https://road.cc/content/news/248771-...ed-karla-roman Motorists are not very bright. There was a case where a Taxi driver admitted to swerving at a cyclist. In his defence he said "I only meant to scare him". Fortunately the jury recognised that deliberately driving a motor vehicle at a primary road user was an admission of guilt and found him guilty of Death by Dangerous Driving. You failed all your attempts at the driving test, then? Jester is a well known pillock and is not worthy of a reply. At least I can find comfort in the fact that I am not you. Is this you? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1R13Kwy57U |
#26
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 23/09/18 23:53, JNugent wrote:
On 23/09/2018 19:10, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 17:23, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 16:34, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 11:23, wrote: Road.cc highlights a very salient piece of CCTV evidence in its piece. https://road.cc/content/news/248771-...ed-karla-roman "Northcott’s barrister, Harry Bentley, said the coach driver was "desperately sorry" for Roman's death “and at times he has considered ending his own life because of it."" It's necessary to wonder how much his sentence was reduced by this Â*grovelling. (Compared to 18 months for Charlie Alliston for not grovelling - and the court seeming to accept that it was the victim Â*that hadn't paid attention.) Pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity (that is, once the charges and evidence have been made available and the strength of the Â*prosecution case thereby known) and saving the Crown the expense of a trial is always taken into account as a mitigating factor. When did Alliston plead guilty? By any chance do you put posts you read through an English to Scouse translator, compose your replies in Scouse and translate them back to English before posting? If you came clean it would explain a great deal. a) The question I raised was about grovelling, not about admission of guilt. The "grovelling" you referred to was as effective an admission of guilt (in the form of a fairly extreme expression of remorse as well as an admission that he broke the rules on stop lines at traffic lights) as anyone could wish for, and certainly not designed as an effective line of defence. But did you think the driver literally prostrated himself in court, with his arms outstretched begging for mercy? Why would I? b) The coach driver pleaded not guilty but was found guilty by a jury. Accord'n ter de Daily Mail. After he had effectively admitted the offence in his own evidence. I assume it was through cross-examination. If there is anything to "admit", is not possible for a defendant to simply change plea during the proceedings? (And how come his legal team failed to anticipate the prosecution line of questioning? Do they lose their fee?) By way of contrast, the "young gentleman" on the brakeless bike blamed the victim and completely exonerated himself, praising his own skills to the skies and contrasting them sharply with the lack of skill on the part of the woman he killed. Some part says he was probably right. Although your precis is bound to be as accurate as the way you always reply to a poster with a question using an unrelated collection of words. There's the difference, even if you don't want, and will refuse, to see and acknowledge it (which I confidently predict). I thought the courts were supposed to punish actions not opinions. |
#27
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 24/09/2018 08:54, TMS320 wrote:
On 23/09/18 23:53, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 19:10, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 17:23, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 16:34, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 11:23, wrote: Road.cc highlights a very salient piece of CCTV evidence in its piece. https://road.cc/content/news/248771-...ed-karla-roman "Northcott’s barrister, Harry Bentley, said the coach driver was "desperately sorry" for Roman's death “and at times he has considered ending his own life because of it."" It's necessary to wonder how much his sentence was reduced by this Â*grovelling. (Compared to 18 months for Charlie Alliston for not grovelling - and the court seeming to accept that it was the victim Â*that hadn't paid attention.) Pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity (that is, once the charges and evidence have been made available and the strength of the Â*prosecution case thereby known) and saving the Crown the expense of a trial is always taken into account as a mitigating factor. When did Alliston plead guilty? By any chance do you put posts you read through an English to Scouse translator, compose your replies in Scouse and translate them back to English before posting? If you came clean it would explain a great deal. a) The question I raised was about grovelling, not about admission of guilt. The "grovelling" you referred to was as effective an admission of guilt (in the form of a fairly extreme expression of remorse as well as an admission that he broke the rules on stop lines at traffic lights) as anyone could wish for, and certainly not designed as an effective line of defence. But did you think the driver literally prostrated himself in court, with his arms outstretched begging for mercy? Why would I? Because you used the word "grovelling" as opposed to "expressing remorse" (which is not "grovelling"). Who knows... you might have had more evidence than was reported. b) The coach driver pleaded not guilty but was found guilty by a jury. Accord'n ter de Daily Mail. After he had effectively admitted the offence in his own evidence. I assume it was through cross-examination. If there is anything to "admit", is not possible for a defendant to simply change plea during the proceedings? Some offences are obvious and the defendant knows whether he is guilty (eg, burglary, assault, murder, cycling along a footway). Others (such as "causing death by careless driving" are not so obvious or well-defined and it in the interest of a defendant to at least allow the prosecution to prove the facts and how the law applies to them. This is particularly so with relatively new offences whose meaning is not something with which all members of the public are familiar. The inportant thing is to give truthful evidence and not to behave in court like the accused rider of a defective bicycle. (And how come his legal team failed to anticipate the prosecution line of questioning? Do they lose their fee?) I doubt they did fail to anticipate it. They may well have advised the NG plea and letting the Crown establish a case under relatively new and uncharted law. By way of contrast, the "young gentleman" on the brakeless bike blamed the victim and completely exonerated himself, praising his own skills to the skies and contrasting them sharply with the lack of skill on the part of the woman he killed. Some part says he was probably right. Are you such a part? Although your precis is bound to be as accurate as the way you always reply to a poster with a question using an unrelated collection of words. There's the difference, even if you don't want, and will refuse, to see and acknowledge it (which I confidently predict). I thought the courts were supposed to punish actions not opinions. The judge ran perilously close to judging the driver's opinions i the reported remarks. It was his carelessness (or otherwise) within the meaning of the law which was at issue. |
#28
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 24/09/18 16:52, JNugent wrote:
On 24/09/2018 08:54, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 23:53, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 19:10, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 17:23, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 16:34, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 11:23, wrote: Road.cc highlights a very salient piece of CCTV evidence in its piece. https://road.cc/content/news/248771-...ed-karla-roman "Northcott’s barrister, Harry Bentley, said the coach driver was "desperately sorry" for Roman's death “and at times he has considered ending his own life because of it."" It's necessary to wonder how much his sentence was reduced by this Â*grovelling. (Compared to 18 months for Charlie Alliston for not grovelling - and the court seeming to accept that it was the victim Â*that hadn't paid attention.) Pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity (that is, once the charges and evidence have been made available and the strength of the Â*prosecution case thereby known) and saving the Crown the expense of a trial is always taken into account as a mitigating factor. When did Alliston plead guilty? By any chance do you put posts you read through an English to Scouse translator, compose your replies in Scouse and translate them back to English before posting? If you came clean it would explain a great deal. a) The question I raised was about grovelling, not about admission of guilt. The "grovelling" you referred to was as effective an admission of guilt (in the form of a fairly extreme expression of remorse as well as an admission that he broke the rules on stop lines at traffic lights) as anyone could wish for, and certainly not designed as an effective line of defence. But did you think the driver literally prostrated himself in court, with his arms outstretched begging for mercy? Why would I? Because you used the word "grovelling" as opposed to "expressing remorse" (which is not "grovelling"). Grovelling does not require prostration. It is an adequate word for the purpose. Who knows... you might have had more evidence than was reported. b) The coach driver pleaded not guilty but was found guilty by a jury. Accord'n ter de Daily Mail. After he had effectively admitted the offence in his own evidence. I assume it was through cross-examination. If there is anything to "admit", is not possible for a defendant to simply change plea during the proceedings? Some offences are obvious and the defendant knows whether he is guilty (eg, burglary, assault, murder, cycling along a footway). Others (such as "causing death by careless driving" are not so obvious or well-defined and it in the interest of a defendant to at least allow the prosecution to prove the facts and how the law applies to them. This is particularly so with relatively new offences whose meaning is not something with which all members of the public are familiar. The inportant thing is to give truthful evidence and not to behave in court like the accused rider of a defective bicycle. (And how come his legal team failed to anticipate the prosecution line of questioning? Do they lose their fee?) I doubt they did fail to anticipate it. They may well have advised the NG plea and letting the Crown establish a case under relatively new and uncharted law. If running someone over that was visible ahead for 16 seconds isn't a clear case of dangerous driving then the law needs more than a bit of testing. By way of contrast, the "young gentleman" on the brakeless bike blamed the victim and completely exonerated himself, praising his own skills to the skies and contrasting them sharply with the lack of skill on the part of the woman he killed. Some part says he was probably right. Are you such a part? Yes. Although your precis is bound to be as accurate as the way you always reply to a poster with a question using an unrelated collection of words. There's the difference, even if you don't want, and will refuse, to see and acknowledge it (which I confidently predict). I thought the courts were supposed to punish actions not opinions. The judge ran perilously close to judging the driver's opinions i the reported remarks. It was his carelessness (or otherwise) within the meaning of the law which was at issue. You're not agreeing with me. Let's hope the judge in Charlie Alliston's case was more concerned about technical (as in science) matters than you obsess about his personality. |
#29
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 24/09/2018 20:14, TMS320 wrote:
On 24/09/18 16:52, JNugent wrote: On 24/09/2018 08:54, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 23:53, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 19:10, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 17:23, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 16:34, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 11:23, wrote: Road.cc highlights a very salient piece of CCTV evidence in its piece. https://road.cc/content/news/248771-...ed-karla-roman "Northcott’s barrister, Harry Bentley, said the coach driver was "desperately sorry" for Roman's death “and at times he has considered ending his own life because of it."" Expressing sympathy and remorse. That's what TMS320 calls "grovelling" (and treats it as an admission). If that view is widely shared, it can be little wonder that insurance companies instruct their polcyholders never to admit responsibility for collisions. It's necessary to wonder how much his sentence was reduced by this grovelling. (Compared to 18 months for Charlie Alliston for not grovelling - and the court seeming to accept that it was the victim Â*that hadn't paid attention.) Alliston didn't express any remorse or sorrow. He even protested his own "innocence" and thw victim's "guilt" on the internet. Pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity (that is, once the charges and evidence have been made available and the strength of the Â*prosecution case thereby known) and saving the Crown the expense of a trial is always taken into account as a mitigating factor. When did Alliston plead guilty? By any chance do you put posts you read through an English to Scouse translator, compose your replies in Scouse and translate them back to English before posting? If you came clean it would explain a great deal. a) The question I raised was about grovelling, not about admission of guilt. The "grovelling" you referred to was as effective an admission of guilt (in the form of a fairly extreme expression of remorse as well as an admission that he broke the rules on stop lines at traffic lights) as anyone could wish for, and certainly not designed as an effective line of defence. But did you think the driver literally prostrated himself in court, with his arms outstretched begging for mercy? Why would I? Because you used the word "grovelling" as opposed to "expressing remorse" (which is not "grovelling"). Grovelling does not require prostration. It is an adequate word for the purpose. But not for the expression of remorse. Who knows... you might have had more evidence than was reported. b) The coach driver pleaded not guilty but was found guilty by a jury. Accord'n ter de Daily Mail. After he had effectively admitted the offence in his own evidence. I assume it was through cross-examination. If there is anything to "admit", is not possible for a defendant to simply change plea during the proceedings? Some offences are obvious and the defendant knows whether he is guilty (eg, burglary, assault, murder, cycling along a footway). Others (such as "causing death by careless driving" are not so obvious or well-defined and it in the interest of a defendant to at least allow the prosecution to prove the facts and how the law applies to them. This is particularly so with relatively new offences whose meaning is not something with which all members of the public are familiar. The inportant thing is to give truthful evidence and not to behave in court like the accused rider of a defective bicycle. (And how come his legal team failed to anticipate the prosecution line of questioning? Do they lose their fee?) I doubt they did fail to anticipate it. They may well have advised the NG plea and letting the Crown establish a case under relatively new and uncharted law. If running someone over that was visible ahead for 16 seconds isn't a clear case of dangerous driving then the law needs more than a bit of testing. You obviously know the case far better than do the police, the CPS, the trial judge and the jury. Why don't you run round and tell them that they got it all wrong? I'll wait here for your report of how you get on. By way of contrast, the "young gentleman" on the brakeless bike blamed the victim and completely exonerated himself, praising his own skills to the skies and contrasting them sharply with the lack of skill on the part of the woman he killed. Some part says he was probably right. Are you such a part? Yes. Not quite the right word, I suspect, though getting there... Although your precis is bound to be as accurate as the way you always reply to a poster with a question using an unrelated collection of words. There's the difference, even if you don't want, and will refuse, to see and acknowledge it (which I confidently predict). I thought the courts were supposed to punish actions not opinions. The judge ran perilously close to judging the driver's opinions i the reported remarks. It was his carelessness (or otherwise) within the meaning of the law which was at issue. You're not agreeing with me. Let's hope the judge in Charlie Alliston's case was more concerned about technical (as in science) matters than you obsess about his personality. The central focus in the Alliston trial was the innocent victim. That and his deliberately dangerous behaviour (despite his assuarances to the court that it wasn't dangerous at all to cycle without brakes). |
#30
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 26/09/18 16:12, JNugent wrote:
On 24/09/2018 20:14, TMS320 wrote: On 24/09/18 16:52, JNugent wrote: On 24/09/2018 08:54, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 23:53, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 19:10, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 17:23, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 16:34, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 11:23, wrote: Road.cc highlights a very salient piece of CCTV evidence in its piece. https://road.cc/content/news/248771-...ed-karla-roman "Northcott’s barrister, Harry Bentley, said the coach driver was "desperately sorry" for Roman's death “and at times he has considered ending his own life because of it."" Expressing sympathy and remorse. That's what TMS320 calls "grovelling" (and treats it as an admission). If that view is widely shared, it can be little wonder that insurance companies instruct their polcyholders never to admit responsibility for collisions. It's necessary to wonder how much his sentence was reduced by this grovelling. (Compared to 18 months for Charlie Alliston for not grovelling - and the court seeming to accept that it was the victim that hadn't paid attention.) Alliston didn't express any remorse or sorrow. He even protested his own "innocence" and thw victim's "guilt" on the internet. I have no idea what he said on the internet (do you know his precise words?) but it is worth a reminder that the victim created the conditions that demanded avoiding action. In normal circumstances, that wouldn't require remorse. Pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity (that is, once the charges and evidence have been made available and the strength of the prosecution case thereby known) and saving the Crown the expense of a trial is always taken into account as a mitigating factor. When did Alliston plead guilty? By any chance do you put posts you read through an English to Scouse translator, compose your replies in Scouse and translate them back to English before posting? If you came clean it would explain a great deal. a) The question I raised was about grovelling, not about admission of guilt. The "grovelling" you referred to was as effective an admission of guilt (in the form of a fairly extreme expression of remorse as well as an admission that he broke the rules on stop lines at traffic lights) as anyone could wish for, and certainly not designed as an effective line of defence. But did you think the driver literally prostrated himself in court, with his arms outstretched begging for mercy? Why would I? Because you used the word "grovelling" as opposed to "expressing remorse" (which is not "grovelling"). Grovelling does not require prostration. It is an adequate word for the purpose. But not for the expression of remorse. So you prefer the word legal people use. Whatever. A road traffic collision is caused by behaviour before the collision, so it is hard to see how behaviour afterwards should have any bearing on the case. Who knows... you might have had more evidence than was reported. b) The coach driver pleaded not guilty but was found guilty by a jury. Accord'n ter de Daily Mail. After he had effectively admitted the offence in his own evidence. I assume it was through cross-examination. If there is anything to "admit", is not possible for a defendant to simply change plea during the proceedings? Some offences are obvious and the defendant knows whether he is guilty (eg, burglary, assault, murder, cycling along a footway). Others (such as "causing death by careless driving" are not so obvious or well-defined and it in the interest of a defendant to at least allow the prosecution to prove the facts and how the law applies to them. This is particularly so with relatively new offences whose meaning is not something with which all members of the public are familiar. The inportant thing is to give truthful evidence and not to behave in court like the accused rider of a defective bicycle. (And how come his legal team failed to anticipate the prosecution line of questioning? Do they lose their fee?) I doubt they did fail to anticipate it. They may well have advised the NG plea and letting the Crown establish a case under relatively new and uncharted law. If running someone over that was visible ahead for 16 seconds isn't a clear case of dangerous driving then the law needs more than a bit of testing. You obviously know the case far better than do the police, the CPS, the trial judge and the jury. What are you suggesting I know that nobody else knows? You can read the press report containing the 16 second figure because it was linked on this newsgroup. Oh, and about your suggestion that they might have wanted to test the law. If so, do you think they would have told the defendant what their game was? Plead guilty and get it over with; plead not guilty and sit through the whole trial go through cross-examination. Why don't you run round and tell them that they got it all wrong? I'll wait here for your report of how you get on. By way of contrast, the "young gentleman" on the brakeless bike blamed the victim and completely exonerated himself, praising his own skills to the skies and contrasting them sharply with the lack of skill on the part of the woman he killed. Some part says he was probably right. Are you such a part? Yes. Not quite the right word, I suspect, though getting there... Although your precis is bound to be as accurate as the way you always reply to a poster with a question using an unrelated collection of words. There's the difference, even if you don't want, and will refuse, to see and acknowledge it (which I confidently predict). I thought the courts were supposed to punish actions not opinions. The judge ran perilously close to judging the driver's opinions i the reported remarks. It was his carelessness (or otherwise) within the meaning of the law which was at issue. You're not agreeing with me. Let's hope the judge in Charlie Alliston's case was more concerned about technical (as in science) matters than you obsess about his personality. The central focus in the Alliston trial was the innocent victim. That and his deliberately dangerous behaviour (despite his assuarances to the court that it wasn't dangerous at all to cycle without brakes). Greasing up and slipping into reporting mode doesn't change your long stated obsession about his personality. |
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