Hazards of night cycling

"SMS" wrote in message
...

For around town, you can get some dynamo lights, but they aren't powerful
enough for the type of cycling where you had your little incident, except
for perhaps the new Solidlight 1203D.

(cough) ********.

But we all know that.

Simply type "Bicycle Lighting" into the Google Search box, then click "I'm
Feeling Lucky." You'll be taken to

SMS's website, which although it contains some useful info is severely
tainted by his refusal to admit that what others use successfully can
possibly work.

clive

On Sep 25, 9:11 am, "Greens" wrote:
"Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" wrote in
oglegroups.com...





Greens wrote:
At the risk of sounding obsessed with safety, I will describe an incident
this evening while riding downhill on a road I've only been on once
before.
Please note; I'd rather this didn't turn into a discussion about me or
my
obsessions, rather I'd prefer it if other night riders shared their tales
of
near disaster and disaster not averted. This would be in the interest of
educating the night riding public in avoiding problems.

It was dark, clear night and I was using my Cateye EL 300 headlight with
new
batteries. I was going downhill on the shoulder of a well maintened road.
Cars were few. All of a sudden I noticed something just ahead. It looked
like white rocks. I thought about ten rocks, each a half inch to an inch
in
diameter. It was too late to do anything else. I ran right into them and
to
my surprise I found my front wheel on my mountain bike sliding sideways
about six inches. Just as I was about to go down, I cleared the rocks. A
little shaken, I made note of a house with lights on either side of the
garage door lit so that I might drive back and look the thing over in
better
light. The rider passing before me hadn't noticed anything. I noticed a
colorful barrel marking some recent work in the middle of the shoulder
not
too much further along. There I swerved around the barrel into the
traffic
lanes rather than hit the barrel.

I drove back and found the garage and it's lights. Drove along slowly and
found.... a graveled entrance to... who knows and who cares? The gravel
covered the whole shoulder for about the width of a driveway.

How is it that I didn't spot this sooner? Why didn't the previous rider
have
trouble with this? My guess is a car had been coming and I kept my head
down
to avoid being blinded. This cuts down my visibility to about 25 feet.
Going
downhill at maybe 18 or 20mph that doesn't leave a lot of time to do
evasive
manuvers, but also if the oncoming car was timed just right, he might
have
gone by just before I got to the gravel when I was adjusting to my low
light
LED.

Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for
roads
on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises like pot
holes
and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of crap on them. Much easier
to
see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light or face the
effects
of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your run over.

The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light.
It
gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
disaster.

Absolutely..take NO responsibility for yourself, blame Cateye-Huh???

Look at how bright the light is and ride accordingly...If you take a
road bike with 20mm tires onto a MTB trail and then crash, are ya
gonna blame the tire maker?

If you want a brighter light, buy a brighter light and be prepared to
pay more for it. No such thing as a free lunch.

Have you had a near disaster while riding at night? Post your experience
and
conclusion.

Riding downhill at the speed I was going was a reasonable speed. The cars
were few and 99.999% of the road was smooth. Am I supposed to ride at 10mph
the whole 7 miles just in case there is a patch of gravel?

If the light doesn't allow you to see hazards at the speed you were
riding, slow down.

Seems unlikely
anyone would be that cautious. That's why I blame the light and Cateye for
not testing the light extensively in actual use. A little night use of the
light by responsible evaluators would quickly turn up it's weaknesses and
dangers but cateye and the people selling them are only interested in
capturing the cheapskate market who wants to ride at night.

Really. We sell many and tell the people of it's limitations. It isn't
the brightest thing, but I use it and it is fine for my 2.5 mile ride
home. It is what it is, don't expect it to be as bright as something
that has 100 timnes the battery power.



They know that
most people won't buy a $400 light for a few nights of riding and they know
that those same people will spend $40 towards the same purpose if they're
adequately assured (bull****ted) that it is safe so they put the light on
the market even though they know the light is an inadequate piece of crap.
If someone gets hurt and actually has the ballls to go to court, they know
that cyclists have a reputation for being odd and that bicycles aren't seen
as legitimate road vehicles in court. The light won't be held to the same
standards of safety that a light on a licensed motor vehicle.

Like the weather, it is YOUR responsibility to ride within your own
limitations and those of your equipment. Don't blame Cateye because
you werte going to fast for conditions.

"Clive George" wrote in message
...
"SMS" wrote in message
...

For around town, you can get some dynamo lights, but they aren't powerful
enough for the type of cycling where you had your little incident, except
for perhaps the new Solidlight 1203D.

(cough) ********.

But we all know that.

Simply type "Bicycle Lighting" into the Google Search box, then click
"I'm Feeling Lucky." You'll be taken to

SMS's website, which although it contains some useful info is severely
tainted by his refusal to admit that what others use successfully can
possibly work.

clive

I enjoyed his site anyway. I've been reading articles from it for more than
an hour. He seems to have a passion for lights and safety.

On Sep 25, 2:05 am, "Greens" wrote:
At the risk of sounding obsessed with safety, I will describe an incident
this evening while riding downhill on a road I've only been on once before.
Please note; I'd rather this didn't turn into a discussion about me or my
obsessions,

.... although the temptation is immense...

rather I'd prefer it if other night riders shared their tales of
near disaster and disaster not averted.

IOW you want to do your usual job of trying to raise everyone's fear
level. But I see from the discussion that you're not succeeding.

Have you had a near disaster while riding at night?

No, I never have. And I've been riding, and often commuting, at night
since about 1977.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sep 25, 4:46 pm, "Greens" wrote:

As it turns out, the light isn't even that good for being seen. Cars see
something, but they don't know what it is. It looks like a flashlight. It
could be snowmobile or ATV. Mostly I think they're wondering, "What the hell
is he doing on the road at night?

I don't know that it matters much what drivers think it is. If they
see it, they'll avoid it - which is the function of a "be seen" light
like the one you bought.

Personally, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. You made a
series of mistakes, and the fault is not with the light manufacturer
or the government. You need to learn from your mistakes, and learn to
take some responsibility.

Your first mistake was, apparently buying the wrong light for your
purpose. That headlight functions well enough for it's intended
purpose: being seen, in locations where street lighting is adequate
for riding at a reasonably slow speed. If you wanted more, you should
have learned what light was appropriate and bought it.

Your second mistake was not realizing what you'd bought when you put
it on your bike and went out for a ride. Why did you not simply
return it, saying "Sell me something brighter"?

Your third mistake was not riding within the limits of your
visibility. Riding 20 mph when you can see only 25 feet ahead is
really foolish.

Your fourth mistake was not being able to handle your bike. A decent
cyclist shouldn't have problems clearing a tiny bit of gravel,
especially on a mountain bike. If necessary, lift the front wheel a
bit on rough parts. The fact that the cyclist in front of you "didn't
notice anything" speaks volumes.

Your fifth mistake was coming here hoping to have everybody give you
hugs and encouragement, and make those bad people stop selling their
product. Sorry, but there's still some room for personal
responsibility in America, and "caveat emptor" still makes sense.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sep 25, 3:38 pm, SMS wrote:

For around town, you can get some dynamo lights, but they aren't
powerful enough for the type of cycling where you had your little
incident, except for perhaps the new Solidlight 1203D.

FFS Steve, quit making **** up about dynamo lights!

Your bias against them is evident enough to illustrate that you don't
ride with them, so nobody should put much stock in what you have to
say about them. You seem to focus solely on wattage and electronics,
ignoring the FAR more important contribution of quality optics.

You're intellectually dishonest by advertising your site as "http://
bicyclelighting.com" and have your "Experts' opinions" link point to
"http://nordicgroup.us/s78/experts.html" which misleadingly looks like
it's external. But no, it's more cherrypicked crap colored by your own
biases.

If you don't want to ride with dynamos, fine, but just STFU about
them.

Hank Wirtz wrote:
On Sep 25, 3:38 pm, SMS wrote:

For around town, you can get some dynamo lights, but they aren't
powerful enough for the type of cycling where you had your little
incident, except for perhaps the new Solidlight 1203D.

FFS Steve, quit making **** up about dynamo lights!

Your bias against them is evident enough to illustrate that you don't
ride with them,

I most certainly do ride with them sometimes. They definitely have some
advantages in some situations.

say about them. You seem to focus solely on wattage and electronics,
ignoring the FAR more important contribution of quality optics.

Lumens, lux, and optics are all factors, and are all inter-related. What
many people apparently don't understand is that in many cases the optics
are designed based around the available light from the source, and are
often a compromise.

You're intellectually dishonest by advertising your site as "http://
bicyclelighting.com" and have your "Experts' opinions" link point to
"http://nordicgroup.us/s78/experts.html" which misleadingly looks like
it's external. But no, it's more cherrypicked crap colored by your own
biases.

The reason for the URL pointing to my home domain is because it's much
cheaper to have different domains sharing the same web host this way.
There was no attempt at trying to make people think the sub-page is a
different site. I can point this out explicitly on the next update.

If there are any other expert opinions, from unbiased sources, on dynamo
lights that are different, then I'm happy to add them, as long as they
are not just anecdotes and stories by people pushing their own agenda.

If you don't want to ride with dynamos, fine, but just STFU about
them.

I think it's important that the facts be promulgated, so sorry, I can't
comply with your request.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:59:08 -0700, wrote:

On Sep 25, 4:46 pm, "Greens" wrote:

As it turns out, the light isn't even that good for being seen. Cars see
something, but they don't know what it is. It looks like a flashlight. It
could be snowmobile or ATV. Mostly I think they're wondering, "What the hell
is he doing on the road at night?

I don't know that it matters much what drivers think it is. If they
see it, they'll avoid it - which is the function of a "be seen" light
like the one you bought.

Personally, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. You made a
series of mistakes, and the fault is not with the light manufacturer
or the government. You need to learn from your mistakes, and learn to
take some responsibility.

Your first mistake was, apparently buying the wrong light for your
purpose. That headlight functions well enough for it's intended
purpose: being seen, in locations where street lighting is adequate
for riding at a reasonably slow speed. If you wanted more, you should
have learned what light was appropriate and bought it.

Your second mistake was not realizing what you'd bought when you put
it on your bike and went out for a ride. Why did you not simply
return it, saying "Sell me something brighter"?

Your third mistake was not riding within the limits of your
visibility. Riding 20 mph when you can see only 25 feet ahead is
really foolish.

Your fourth mistake was not being able to handle your bike. A decent
cyclist shouldn't have problems clearing a tiny bit of gravel,
especially on a mountain bike. If necessary, lift the front wheel a
bit on rough parts. The fact that the cyclist in front of you "didn't
notice anything" speaks volumes.

Your fifth mistake was coming here hoping to have everybody give you
hugs and encouragement, and make those bad people stop selling their
product. Sorry, but there's still some room for personal
responsibility in America, and "caveat emptor" still makes sense.

- Frank Krygowski

Dear Frank,

By sad coincidence, the Denver Boast featured this article today:

Bicyclist killed in pre-dawn accident
By Mike McPhee
Denver Post Staff Writer
Article Last Updated: 09/24/2007 03:07:57 PM MDT

A bicyclist was struck by a car and killed early this morning on a
frontage road in Adams County.

The Colorado State Patrol said the bicyclist was hit just after 6
a.m., while it was still dark, on the Interstate 76 frontage road
between 88th and 96th avenues in Adams County. Master Trooper Ron
Watkins said the rider did not have lights or reflective gear on his
bike or on his clothing.

He was pronounced dead at the scene, and his identity has not been
released.

He was struck in a traffic lane, not on the shoulder, by a 2004
Chevrolet Malibu driven by Charles Polich, 61, of Aurora.

Watkins said the investigation in continuing but that Polich never saw
the bike before hitting it. Drugs and alcohol are not considered
factors in the accident, Watkins said.

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_6985822

The same paper lists sunrise as 6:50 a.m., 6:23 a.m. for civil
twilight.

The map and my memory suggest that the speed limit on the frontage
road would be at least 50 mph, but I could be wrong:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...2841&z=15&om=1

It sounds as if the dead bicyclist was riding in the dark in the
traffic lane with no lights and no reflectors at 6 a.m. with his back
to the car that hit him.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Sep 25, 10:37 pm, SMS wrote:
Hank Wirtz wrote:
On Sep 25, 3:38 pm, SMS wrote:

For around town, you can get some dynamo lights, but they aren't
powerful enough for the type of cycling where you had your little
incident, except for perhaps the new Solidlight 1203D.

FFS Steve, quit making **** up about dynamo lights!

Your bias against them is evident enough to illustrate that you don't
ride with them,

I most certainly do ride with them sometimes. They definitely have some
advantages in some situations.

say about them. You seem to focus solely on wattage and electronics,
ignoring the FAR more important contribution of quality optics.

Lumens, lux, and optics are all factors, and are all inter-related. What
many people apparently don't understand is that in many cases the optics
are designed based around the available light from the source, and are
often a compromise.

You're intellectually dishonest by advertising your site as "http://
bicyclelighting.com" and have your "Experts' opinions" link point to
"http://nordicgroup.us/s78/experts.html" which misleadingly looks like
it's external. But no, it's more cherrypicked crap colored by your own
biases.

The reason for the URL pointing to my home domain is because it's much
cheaper to have different domains sharing the same web host this way.
There was no attempt at trying to make people think the sub-page is a
different site. I can point this out explicitly on the next update.

If there are any other expert opinions, from unbiased sources, on dynamo
lights that are different, then I'm happy to add them, as long as they
are not just anecdotes and stories by people pushing their own agenda.

If you don't want to ride with dynamos, fine, but just STFU about
them.

I think it's important that the facts be promulgated, so sorry, I can't
comply with your request.

But that's just it...What you have to say about dynamo lighting isn't
"the facts." Nor is what I have to say about the subject. They're
opinions. Trying to present your opinion as fact about something like
adequacy when there's no objective standard in the US (and in the
Germany, the standard is 10 lux, which I'd wager nearly all dynamo
systems are capable of) is dishonest.

My LED-based dynamo system provides 16 lux as slow as 3.5 mph. I ride
in areas with and without streetlighting, and with and without cars.
It has a standlight so I can be seen while stopped.I have found that
amount of light to suit my needs better than the two rechargeable high-
power systems I'd used prior. While those other systems did put out
more light, their charge would just barely provide light for enough
time to get me to work and home again in the winter.

My dynamo system's output is not affected by how long it takes me to
get home, nor is it significantly affected by temperature. Its light
output is sufficient for me to be safe riding between 5-30 mph in a
variety of conditions, IN MY OPINION. You may feel differently. To
present that opposing opinion as fact is, as I said before, dishonest.

Dishonest.

Dishonest.

Dishonest.

In my opinion.

wrote in message
ps.com...
On Sep 25, 4:46 pm, "Greens" wrote:

As it turns out, the light isn't even that good for being seen. Cars see
something, but they don't know what it is. It looks like a flashlight. It
could be snowmobile or ATV. Mostly I think they're wondering, "What the
hell
is he doing on the road at night?

I don't know that it matters much what drivers think it is. If they
see it, they'll avoid it - which is the function of a "be seen" light
like the one you bought.

Personally, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. You made a
series of mistakes, and the fault is not with the light manufacturer
or the government. You need to learn from your mistakes, and learn to
take some responsibility.

Your first mistake was, apparently buying the wrong light for your
purpose. That headlight functions well enough for it's intended
purpose: being seen, in locations where street lighting is adequate
for riding at a reasonably slow speed. If you wanted more, you should
have learned what light was appropriate and bought it.

Your second mistake was not realizing what you'd bought when you put
it on your bike and went out for a ride. Why did you not simply
return it, saying "Sell me something brighter"?

Your third mistake was not riding within the limits of your
visibility. Riding 20 mph when you can see only 25 feet ahead is
really foolish.

Your fourth mistake was not being able to handle your bike. A decent
cyclist shouldn't have problems clearing a tiny bit of gravel,
especially on a mountain bike. If necessary, lift the front wheel a
bit on rough parts. The fact that the cyclist in front of you "didn't
notice anything" speaks volumes.

Your fifth mistake was coming here hoping to have everybody give you
hugs and encouragement, and make those bad people stop selling their
product. Sorry, but there's still some room for personal
responsibility in America, and "caveat emptor" still makes sense.

- Frank Krygowski



Here's what it says over at performance about the Cateye 300

a.. Opticube lens and reflector technology combined with five LED's provide
an incredible 400+ candlepower of clear, focused, white light
a.. Run it for 30 hours as a high power headlight or for 110 hours in safety
mode
a.. Tool-free mount makes it easy to keep your light with you no matter what
bike you're riding
a.. Compact design is perfect for the commuter or weekend trail warrior
a.. Runs on 4 AA batteries
a.. Fits 22mm - 26mm bars

It says it's incredibly powerful. It has a clear, focused light. It runs for
a long time and it's perfect for commuters or weekend warriors. Sounds to me
like it's a perfectly adequate headlight. It's also visible from the side
and it costs one tenth of what the expensive headlights cost. It doesn't say
it's for being seen only or it's not for seeing. It says it's perfect.

I could spend all day reading all the product descriptions, but that's
boring and the product descriptions are clearly misleading. This product
doesn't have any drawbacks. If they have better, more expensive lights, why
don't they tell me some reasons I'd want to spend more? What's the point of
reading all these product descriptions if they all describe each product as
powerful and great? I could search out reviews, but I didn't see any
professional reviews just people like yourself who tend to have
disagreements like "It's great." and "No it isn't." "Yes it is." "Nope".

I want to spend my time cycling not searching out and reading reviews. Do
you think I read reviews of car headlights when a headlight goes out? No. I
just bring it in to the shop and tell the mechanic to replace the headlight
or I buy a replacement myself. So far they've never tried to sell me a "be
seen" headlight that isn't worth a **** for "seeing", but only good for
"being seen". You just seem to love everything that's wrong with marketing
and cycling. Are you an executive in the bike parts industry?

For most of the ride 20mph was a safe speed. If the gravel extended over the
portion of the road used by cars, there would have been a sign, but there
was no sign because they don't give a damn about cyclists, especially
cyclists that ride at night.

The state doesn't givea damn about cyclists and neither do the people
selling bikes and accessories. Wouldn't it make more sense to lead people to
appropriate decisions instead of just talking glowingly of every stupid
product? If people felt they could make fast, good decisions based on good
product descriptions, they'd be more likely to want to buy more stuff and do
more cycling. As it is, most of my cycling purchases make me want to put the
thing in a compactor and hide on the couch. Reading your crap about how the
public needs to be lulled into a false sense of security certainly makes me
want to hide.