Old Bicycle re-hab

On 9/7/2015 9:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2015 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote:

I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



--
cheers,

John B.


We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent
chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA,
including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high
voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd
shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's
dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The
remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts.

Everything is "giveaway rates" compared to USA" :-}

But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying to describe
the Sahara to a fish.

But having said that years ago I worked in a Gunsmith shop in
Shreveport LA, where we did a considerable amount of hot tank blueing
and plating and the old fellow - probably 60+, who had been a plater
all his life and who managed the plating and blueing end of the
business, had no septum in his nose. Apparently it is a known result
of working with acids and hot solutions of corrosive "stuff".

He was, and had been, aware, since being an apprentice boy, of what
caused the problem and had simply made the decision to ignore it. Had
there been such a thing as OSHA in those days the shop owner would
have had to abandoned that portion of the business and the old fellow
would have been out of a job. As it was he set all prices and
estimates for the blueing/plating side of things and literally paid
the Shop a commission on each job that he did and apparently was doing
right well. He drove a new car, his wife drove a new car, he lived a
bit out in the country on a very nice, and well kept farm. Far better
than having your business shut down or priced out of the market by the
Government :-)

As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that
the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely
removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your
tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby
builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both
blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is
furniture and classic car bumpers.

Yes, in any event I will explain exactly what I want and how and as I
mentioned he did all the hardware for a banjo that I rebuilt and did
it exactly as I requested. Another shop had looked at the bag of bits
and pieces I had immediately said that they were so busy at the moment
that it might be "next month".


"But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying to describe
the Sahara to a fish."

Examples abound.

Stalin accused the landed farmers of not producing enough wheat so he
killed nearly all of them. The more they killed, the less wheat was
produced.

The net effect was to strengthen the Party and the NKVD.

Several millions in Russia and Ukraine starved to death but from the
Party viewpoint that's minor collateral damage. Regulators care about
regulation and the power of the martinets, not jobs, not GDP, not actual
citizens' lives.

You get that in a lot of situations, not just regulations.

There are "Danger! Danger!" proponents, who say that if [sorry, folks]
mandating helmets dissuades people from cycling, that's just fine,
because then fewer people will get bicycle injuries.

There are bicycle facility advocates who say it's perfectly fine to have
mandatory sidepath laws, i.e. to put in bike paths and forbid cyclists
to use the road. For our own good, you see.

Humans seem prone to adopting ideologies, and committing to them beyond
logic. It's just the way we are.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/7/2015 9:21 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/7/2015 9:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2015 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500, AMuzi
wrote:

On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote:

I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I
mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end
Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few
modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take
a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender
eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the
rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian
bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have
been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop
and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is
willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming
the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some
of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part
of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are
two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly
which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner
than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away
or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of
retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be
a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and
hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what
was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash
polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their
thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight,
frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



--
cheers,

John B.


We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports
excellent
chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA,
including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high
voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd
shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's
dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The
remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts.

Everything is "giveaway rates" compared to USA" :-}

But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying
to describe
the Sahara to a fish.

But having said that years ago I worked in a Gunsmith
shop in
Shreveport LA, where we did a considerable amount of hot
tank blueing
and plating and the old fellow - probably 60+, who had
been a plater
all his life and who managed the plating and blueing end
of the
business, had no septum in his nose. Apparently it is a
known result
of working with acids and hot solutions of corrosive
"stuff".

He was, and had been, aware, since being an apprentice
boy, of what
caused the problem and had simply made the decision to
ignore it. Had
there been such a thing as OSHA in those days the shop
owner would
have had to abandoned that portion of the business and
the old fellow
would have been out of a job. As it was he set all prices
and
estimates for the blueing/plating side of things and
literally paid
the Shop a commission on each job that he did and
apparently was doing
right well. He drove a new car, his wife drove a new car,
he lived a
bit out in the country on a very nice, and well kept
farm. Far better
than having your business shut down or priced out of the
market by the
Government :-)

As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that
the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely
removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that
your
tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby
builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on
both
blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is
furniture and classic car bumpers.

Yes, in any event I will explain exactly what I want and
how and as I
mentioned he did all the hardware for a banjo that I
rebuilt and did
it exactly as I requested. Another shop had looked at the
bag of bits
and pieces I had immediately said that they were so busy
at the moment
that it might be "next month".


"But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like
trying to describe
the Sahara to a fish."

Examples abound.

Stalin accused the landed farmers of not producing enough
wheat so he
killed nearly all of them. The more they killed, the less
wheat was
produced.

The net effect was to strengthen the Party and the NKVD.

Several millions in Russia and Ukraine starved to death
but from the
Party viewpoint that's minor collateral damage. Regulators
care about
regulation and the power of the martinets, not jobs, not
GDP, not actual
citizens' lives.

You get that in a lot of situations, not just regulations.

There are "Danger! Danger!" proponents, who say that if
[sorry, folks] mandating helmets dissuades people from
cycling, that's just fine, because then fewer people will
get bicycle injuries.

There are bicycle facility advocates who say it's perfectly
fine to have mandatory sidepath laws, i.e. to put in bike
paths and forbid cyclists to use the road. For our own
good, you see.

Humans seem prone to adopting ideologies, and committing to
them beyond logic. It's just the way we are.


If there's some big difference between traffic 'engineers'
and the NKVD, I missed it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 11:05:33 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/7/2015 9:21 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/7/2015 9:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2015 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500, AMuzi
wrote:

On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote:

I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I
mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end
Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few
modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take
a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender
eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the
rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian
bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have
been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop
and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is
willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming
the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some
of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part
of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are
two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly
which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner
than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away
or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of
retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be
a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and
hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what
was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash
polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their
thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight,
frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



--
cheers,

John B.


We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports
excellent
chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA,
including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high
voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd
shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's
dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The
remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts.

Everything is "giveaway rates" compared to USA" :-}

But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying
to describe
the Sahara to a fish.

But having said that years ago I worked in a Gunsmith
shop in
Shreveport LA, where we did a considerable amount of hot
tank blueing
and plating and the old fellow - probably 60+, who had
been a plater
all his life and who managed the plating and blueing end
of the
business, had no septum in his nose. Apparently it is a
known result
of working with acids and hot solutions of corrosive
"stuff".

He was, and had been, aware, since being an apprentice
boy, of what
caused the problem and had simply made the decision to
ignore it. Had
there been such a thing as OSHA in those days the shop
owner would
have had to abandoned that portion of the business and
the old fellow
would have been out of a job. As it was he set all prices
and
estimates for the blueing/plating side of things and
literally paid
the Shop a commission on each job that he did and
apparently was doing
right well. He drove a new car, his wife drove a new car,
he lived a
bit out in the country on a very nice, and well kept
farm. Far better
than having your business shut down or priced out of the
market by the
Government :-)

As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that
the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely
removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that
your
tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby
builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on
both
blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is
furniture and classic car bumpers.

Yes, in any event I will explain exactly what I want and
how and as I
mentioned he did all the hardware for a banjo that I
rebuilt and did
it exactly as I requested. Another shop had looked at the
bag of bits
and pieces I had immediately said that they were so busy
at the moment
that it might be "next month".


"But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like
trying to describe
the Sahara to a fish."

Examples abound.

Stalin accused the landed farmers of not producing enough
wheat so he
killed nearly all of them. The more they killed, the less
wheat was
produced.

The net effect was to strengthen the Party and the NKVD.

Several millions in Russia and Ukraine starved to death
but from the
Party viewpoint that's minor collateral damage. Regulators
care about
regulation and the power of the martinets, not jobs, not
GDP, not actual
citizens' lives.

You get that in a lot of situations, not just regulations.

There are "Danger! Danger!" proponents, who say that if
[sorry, folks] mandating helmets dissuades people from
cycling, that's just fine, because then fewer people will
get bicycle injuries.

There are bicycle facility advocates who say it's perfectly
fine to have mandatory sidepath laws, i.e. to put in bike
paths and forbid cyclists to use the road. For our own
good, you see.

Humans seem prone to adopting ideologies, and committing to
them beyond logic. It's just the way we are.


If there's some big difference between traffic 'engineers'
and the NKVD, I missed it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

if yawl wanna carry this a step further, the difference tween Midland Daniels and the FIVE YEAR PLAN forcing family farmers into 'truck farming' is Russia's inhospitable climate and extremely thin 'topsoil'

On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 6:33:01 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2015 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
snip

"But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying
to describe the Sahara to a fish."

Examples abound.

Stalin accused the landed farmers of not producing enough
wheat so he killed nearly all of them. The more they killed,
the less wheat was produced.

The net effect was to strengthen the Party and the NKVD.

Several millions in Russia and Ukraine starved to death but
from the Party viewpoint that's minor collateral damage.
Regulators care about regulation and the power of the
martinets, not jobs, not GDP, not actual citizens' lives.

Yikes. We could go back to the good old days before the FDA. A few regulators prevented a lot of US kids from being born with flippers for arms.

The first workers compensation statutes were adopted just after the turn of the 20th century. Before then, an employee was precluded from suing his employer by a couple of common law doctrines including the fellow-servant rule, assumption of the risk and contributory negligence. So what happened is that injured employees became wards of the state or churches or families. Business expenses were being foisted on to the society at large.

OSHA came into existence for much the same reason -- to protect workers and to reduce the societal impact of work injuries. Compliance is a cost of doing business. Some of the more arcane rules have little utility, though, and should be removed. Safety committees are pretty useless in office buildings.

I have nothing but good things to say about the EPA because it is putting my son through college. I hardly know a lawyer who is not involved in the Portland Harbor Superfund mess. The Clean Water Act -- and the stormwater permitting process -- is an endless source of extortion for some environmental groups. That pinko Richard Nixon and his damned CWA! Thank you for the defense work, Dick. He could play piano, too.

-- Jay Beattie.

Beattie's a SOCIALIST nyah nyah.....

yeah I have incipient emphysema within ne lung from a house fire. So wandering up the coast Thanksgiving weekend uh '91 ? drove into wonderful damp cool clean air Oregon. aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....

off course the crackers were shut down for the weekend.....

had the same deal in Armstrongville with a big time Texas snowstorm driving me off the barefoot coast into a warm motel......ahhhhhhhhhhh wonderful air fit for a TdF champion...off course the epoxy refineries went down before the snow storm and after I asked a parkee over at the reservoir WTH the poisonous fog was comin from n he said its the cedar trees....these cedar trees...pointing at one abt 40' away, he said, give off the foulest toxic odor imaginable.

Like the town on the west side going up the hill where the Feds are removing creosote soaked soil underneath the town then lowering the buildings back into a deephole

the scene on Portland is immediately recognizable in Google Ert or maps

http://yosemite.epa.gov/R10/CLEANUP....Superfund+Site

they are everywhere....roundem up an shootem.

On 9/7/2015 2:40 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The first workers compensation statutes were adopted just after the turn of the 20th century. Before then, an employee was precluded from suing his employer by a couple of common law doctrines including the fellow-servant rule, assumption of the risk and contributory negligence. So what happened is that injured employees became wards of the state or churches or families. Business expenses were being foisted on to the society at large.

OSHA came into existence for much the same reason -- to protect workers and to reduce the societal impact of work injuries. Compliance is a cost of doing business.

I do wish OSHA had been in effect during the 1930s and 1940s. It would
probably have let at least one of my grandfathers survive long enough to
meet me.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 07 Sep 2015 08:32:51 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/6/2015 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote:

I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



--
cheers,

John B.


We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent
chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA,
including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high
voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd
shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's
dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The
remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts.

Everything is "giveaway rates" compared to USA" :-}

But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying to describe
the Sahara to a fish.

But having said that years ago I worked in a Gunsmith shop in
Shreveport LA, where we did a considerable amount of hot tank blueing
and plating and the old fellow - probably 60+, who had been a plater
all his life and who managed the plating and blueing end of the
business, had no septum in his nose. Apparently it is a known result
of working with acids and hot solutions of corrosive "stuff".

He was, and had been, aware, since being an apprentice boy, of what
caused the problem and had simply made the decision to ignore it. Had
there been such a thing as OSHA in those days the shop owner would
have had to abandoned that portion of the business and the old fellow
would have been out of a job. As it was he set all prices and
estimates for the blueing/plating side of things and literally paid
the Shop a commission on each job that he did and apparently was doing
right well. He drove a new car, his wife drove a new car, he lived a
bit out in the country on a very nice, and well kept farm. Far better
than having your business shut down or priced out of the market by the
Government :-)

As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that
the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely
removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your
tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby
builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both
blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is
furniture and classic car bumpers.

Yes, in any event I will explain exactly what I want and how and as I
mentioned he did all the hardware for a banjo that I rebuilt and did
it exactly as I requested. Another shop had looked at the bag of bits
and pieces I had immediately said that they were so busy at the moment
that it might be "next month".


"But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying
to describe the Sahara to a fish."

Examples abound.

Stalin accused the landed farmers of not producing enough
wheat so he killed nearly all of them. The more they killed,
the less wheat was produced.

Not to quibble, but I thought that the problem with the landed farmers
was that they were landed. Far better to have the masses be without
property and dependent solely on "Big Brother's" largess.

The Chinese, a pragmatic people, did exactly that and so did the N.
Koreans. The Chinese, however, have discovered the advantages of a
managed capitalistic system over the government managed socialistic
system.

Strangely. the Western nations seem to be headed in the opposite
direction.

The net effect was to strengthen the Party and the NKVD.

The NKVD, of course, being the sword and the shield of the party.

Several millions in Russia and Ukraine starved to death but
from the Party viewpoint that's minor collateral damage.
Regulators care about regulation and the power of the
martinets, not jobs, not GDP, not actual citizens' lives.

One of the great advantages of the Democratic system is that it
preserves the advantages of the proletariat, right up to the day after
the election.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 11:40:05 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 6:33:01 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2015 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
snip

"But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying
to describe the Sahara to a fish."

Examples abound.

Stalin accused the landed farmers of not producing enough
wheat so he killed nearly all of them. The more they killed,
the less wheat was produced.

The net effect was to strengthen the Party and the NKVD.

Several millions in Russia and Ukraine starved to death but
from the Party viewpoint that's minor collateral damage.
Regulators care about regulation and the power of the
martinets, not jobs, not GDP, not actual citizens' lives.

Yikes. We could go back to the good old days before the FDA. A few regulators prevented a lot of US kids from being born with flippers for arms.


I think that you are talking about Thalidomide kids. Which was a
tragedy. But apparently it was, in a sense, more a matter of improper
use, as it is still manufactured and still prescribed.

The first workers compensation statutes were adopted just after the turn of the 20th century. Before then, an employee was precluded from suing his employer by a couple of common law doctrines including the fellow-servant rule, assumption of the risk and contributory negligence. So what happened is that injured employees became wards of the state or churches or families. Business expenses were being foisted on to the society at large.

OSHA came into existence for much the same reason -- to protect workers and to reduce the societal impact of work injuries. Compliance is a cost of doing business. Some of the more arcane rules have little utility, though, and should be removed. Safety committees are pretty useless in office buildings.

While I certainly agree with the concept of protecting the worker I
have difficulty equating that with the common traits of the OSHA
people themselves. I was once written up by an Air Force Safety
Inspector for being in a machine shop without my safety glasses on.
When I asked him why it was a safe act for him to enter a machine shop
without wearing safety glasses in order to write me up for not wearing
safety glasses, he didn't seem to have an answer. Or, in another case,
a bloke in the rec.crafts.metalworking group wrote a message
commenting on his being written up by OSHA for having the wrong shade
of yellow denoting walkways in his small factory. When he researched
the question it appeared that the term used in the OSHA regs is
"yellow".

I could go on and on but why bother.


I have nothing but good things to say about the EPA because it is putting my son through college. I hardly know a lawyer who is not involved in the Portland Harbor Superfund mess. The Clean Water Act -- and the stormwater permitting process -- is an endless source of extortion for some environmental groups. That pinko Richard Nixon and his damned CWA! Thank you for the defense work, Dick. He could play piano, too.

Yup, that certainly is realistic - Never look a gift horse in the
mouth.

-- Jay Beattie.


--
cheers,

John B.