Making "protected" bike lanes safe

On Thursday, April 11, 2019 at 8:52:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/11/2019 11:16 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
" writes:


Oh, you're not an American obviously. If you were from the USA you
would know that Interstates are only for motor vehicles. Bicycles are
not allowed on Interstates.

That's actually up to the individual states. Bicycles are allowed on
quite a few western interstates, and, according to Wikipedia, all of them in
Idaho, Montana, the Dakotas, and Wyoming.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-...ss_on_freeways

I've bicycled hundreds of miles on interstates out west. I'm sure others
posting here have done so as well.

Looks like about 20 states allow bikes in interstates, at least under
certain conditions. Not all those states are out west.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-mo...ss_on_freeways


Oregon does, except in the Portland metro area. I've ridden down to Salem on the highway a few times. Fast, but not very pleasant.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 4/11/2019 10:43 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 9:17:14 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

And where does it end, and at what public expense? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/63...568b113132.jpg And what is the net benefit to cyclists? Segregated facilities can be a nightmare with high traffic volumes -- apart from the cleaning issues.

What I never understood about the SCV was why people weren't riding back when I commuted everywhere in the '70s and early '80s. I didn't even own a car for most of that time. Sunny weather, wide streets, moderate traffic volumes -- probably way better than now, and nobody rode to work. I assume ridership has increased and that the cities can justify the expense of special facilities.

-- Jay Beattie.

Was that a bridge across a Freeway?

If you're referring to the photo Jay linked, I believe it's a conceptual
drawing for a really, really safe bike facility. It's an elevated tube
with weather protection, only for bicyclists. It would be really,
really, really safe.

But Jay is negligent in promoting that version! Anyone can see that the
eastbound cyclists can crash into the westbound ones. When, oh when,
will we realize we need two parallel tubes everywhere - for safety???

Of course there are problems with roads everywhere. Along the beach in Alameda they tried putting the bike lane two way along the beach side. This puts the parking lane outside.

So people park and throw their doors open into traffic. And passengers throw their doors open into the bike lane. And the two way traffic on the bike lane puts Joe Pretend Racer one the same path that a 3 year old on a balance bike is riding. Can you see any practical way of improving it?

Jay's tubular bike path - or actually, the much better twin-tube version
- will go a long way toward _finally_ making biking safe...

Until we can build an entire parallel universe for bike riders. Take
heart, safety fans! Elon Musk is working on it!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/11/2019 11:54 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 11, 2019 at 7:43:15 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 9:17:14 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 8:37:32 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/10/2019 12:49 AM, Chalo wrote:
It's all folly until we ban cars from areas where there are cyclists and peds present.

Protected bike lanes are about increasing safety, but that's not the
only reason for them.

In my city, we had a high school student killed who would still be here
today if there had been a protected bike lane so the truck that the
cyclist and the truck would have been physically separated.

The other big issue that cities face is cars, and other vehicles using
unprotected bike lanes for various other purposes. Passing on the right.
Drifting into the bike lane. Deliveries. Pick-up and drop-off. Pulling
over a driver to give them a traffic ticket. Turn on your emergency
flashers and the whole world's a parking space. Stick a cone behind a
delivery or service vehicle and you're good to park there for a long time.

If we want to increase the percentages of cyclists we have to increase
both actual safety and the perception of safety. Just putting protected
bike lanes in areas where there are the most conflicts is probably
sufficient. The other issue is at intersections you need to bring the
bicycles and pedestrians closer together to avoid right hooks (or left
hooks in left-drive countries).

There are other issues to consider as well, how do you do street
cleaning? How do you pick up garbage in areas where the trash cans need
to be by the curb?

And where does it end, and at what public expense? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/63...568b113132.jpg And what is the net benefit to cyclists? Segregated facilities can be a nightmare with high traffic volumes -- apart from the cleaning issues.

What I never understood about the SCV was why people weren't riding back when I commuted everywhere in the '70s and early '80s. I didn't even own a car for most of that time. Sunny weather, wide streets, moderate traffic volumes -- probably way better than now, and nobody rode to work. I assume ridership has increased and that the cities can justify the expense of special facilities.

-- Jay Beattie.

Was that a bridge across a Freeway? Of course there are problems with roads everywhere. Along the beach in Alameda they tried putting the bike lane two way along the beach side. This puts the parking lane outside.

So people park and throw their doors open into traffic. And passengers throw their doors open into the bike lane. And the two way traffic on the bike lane puts Joe Pretend Racer one the same path that a 3 year old on a balance bike is riding. Can you see any practical way of improving it?

Not really -- except with education and vigorous enforcement of traffic laws requiring motorists to treat the bike lanes like traffic lanes. Even with my magic flasher, some absolute dolt right hooked me into an athletic field on the way home last night -- at the Under Armor headquarters. http://tinyurl.com/y73ckzzy This is the very noticeable bike facility out front. http://tinyurl.com/yy7haffg The place is choked with witless runners looking for parking spots.

Meanwhile, riding in the super-duper bicycle facility this morning, my son put it well: "I'm going to have an aneurysm." It's a nightmare of on-street and separated two-way bike and pedestrian facilities -- kooks on bikes, buses, trains, etc., etc. Looks good on paper but sucks in reality. https://bikeportland.org/2015/08/14/...et-bike-155284 This intersection is a little death trap: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/s...y-bend-559.png


And while I'm complaining, who thought up the f****** dimpled plastic curb cut transitions: https://adatile.com/wp-content/uploa...l-1030x773.jpg They're everywhere and slippery as sh** in the rain, which means they're slippery much of the year. If you hit one even slightly leaned into a turn, you're slipping, and if you have poor reflexes, you're going down. I'm amazed I haven't seen more crashes on those things.

The real solution is moving to some place with adequately wide roads and fewer cars -- yet progressive enough that the guys-with-banjos aren't trying to kill you. I'm not sure where that is. Maybe Frank's magical village.

Do you ever watch Rick Steves travel videos? In a couple of them, he's
remarked that certain European cities are so charming and beautiful
precisely because they lost their prosperity - for example, when the
port that caused the city to grow became silted up and commerce moved
elsewhere.

Jay and Tom live in areas where there's booming business and growing
population. That brings more and more vehicles packing onto the same roads.

I live in a metro area that suddenly lost its major industry, which was
making steel. After that we lost a major electrical component
manufacturer (Delphi) when GM decided to make wiring harnesses in
Mexico. And we just lost a huge GM assembly plant in Lordstown, despite
the Trumpster saying "Don't sell your houses. Steel is coming back,
manufacturing is coming back..."

Yeah, Tom's got lovely weather, Jay's got views of Mt. Hood. Your home
values (and your taxes) are soaring to the stratosphere. But I've got
nice empty roads!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/11/2019 3:38 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 11.04.2019 um 05:37 schrieb sms:
In my city, we had a high school student killed who would still be
here today if there had been a protected bike lane so the truck that
the cyclist and the truck would have been physically separated.

If you wish to physically separate trucks and bicycles everywhere, you
have two options: either ban trucks from your city or ban bicycles from
your city.

In reality, you need crossings where the trucks and the bicycles cross
each other's path.

In Germany, we have so many unexperienced cyclists killed by trucks at
junctions exactly due to the protected bike paths:

Without a bike path or bike lane, the cyclists would be behind or in
front of a right-turning truck.Â* Due to the bike path, the cyclist rides
to the right of a truck standing at the traffic lights without the truck
driver noticing.
Even if the cyclist stops at the last second when he sees the truck
turning, the trailer rolls over him (the trailer takes a sharper curve
than the cabin of the truck).

Germany has 3,200 accidents of this type per year, with 70 dead and 660
injured bicyclists; great advantage of having protected bike paths at
the side of almost every road in most cities.

Very clearly explained, Rolf.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/11/2019 7:29 AM, AK wrote:


Good point about the street cleaning. Bike lanes accumulate trash and glass quickly.

Excellent point.

I recently spoke with a prominent employee of a certain midwestern "rust
belt" city - call it city A. This employee was part of a group hosting
delegates from other similar cities (B & C), showing off the efforts of
city A to become trendy and fashionable. My friend from city A is well
aware of my skepticism regarding much trendy segregated infrastructure.

As the delegates rode along in a tour bus, a different person from city
A bragged while pointing out city A's sparkling new "protected" bike
lanes. Look how trendy!

A person from city B said "How do you plan to keep them clean of trash
and snow? Has your city bought special narrow street sweepers and snow
plows?"

The braggart from city A said "... um... well..."

And my contact from city A just looked at the ceiling...

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, April 11, 2019 at 9:03:21 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/11/2019 10:43 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 9:17:14 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

And where does it end, and at what public expense? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/63...568b113132.jpg And what is the net benefit to cyclists? Segregated facilities can be a nightmare with high traffic volumes -- apart from the cleaning issues.

What I never understood about the SCV was why people weren't riding back when I commuted everywhere in the '70s and early '80s. I didn't even own a car for most of that time. Sunny weather, wide streets, moderate traffic volumes -- probably way better than now, and nobody rode to work. I assume ridership has increased and that the cities can justify the expense of special facilities.

-- Jay Beattie.

Was that a bridge across a Freeway?

If you're referring to the photo Jay linked, I believe it's a conceptual
drawing for a really, really safe bike facility. It's an elevated tube
with weather protection, only for bicyclists. It would be really,
really, really safe.

But Jay is negligent in promoting that version! Anyone can see that the
eastbound cyclists can crash into the westbound ones. When, oh when,
will we realize we need two parallel tubes everywhere - for safety???

Prototype design and testing indicates total safety. Here is some video from the engineering firm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oz3YSu44-4

-- Jay Beattie.

On 4/11/2019 11:56 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 11, 2019 at 8:52:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I've bicycled hundreds of miles on interstates out west. I'm sure others
posting here have done so as well.

Looks like about 20 states allow bikes in interstates, at least under
certain conditions. Not all those states are out west.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-mo...ss_on_freeways


Oregon does, except in the Portland metro area. I've ridden down to Salem on the highway a few times. Fast, but not very pleasant.

I was sort of amazed when riding out west with my wife and daughter. I'd
have thought they'd object to the traffic noise of the interstates, and
opt for the quieter parallel routes when they existed.

Nope, they wanted to get places faster. We rode the interstates.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 11.04.2019 um 15:33 schrieb AMuzi:
Perhaps [Trump] noticed that Viktor Orban just won his 4th election.

But just one wife.

Which is not difficult after changing the electoral rules to his benefit.

What exactly is your problem with Hungary's 2018 electoral rules? "Your"
ethnic party having only won one seat?

On 4/11/2019 11:58 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 11.04.2019 um 15:33 schrieb AMuzi:
Perhaps [Trump] noticed that Viktor Orban just won his 4th election.

But just one wife.

Which is not difficult after changing the electoral rules to his benefit.

What exactly is your problem with Hungary's 2018 electoral rules? "Your"
ethnic party having only won one seat?


The insertion above is not mine. I wrote about Trudeau.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, April 11, 2019 at 11:55:00 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
And while I'm complaining, who thought up the f****** dimpled plastic curb cut transitions: https://adatile.com/wp-content/uploa...l-1030x773.jpg They're everywhere and slippery as sh** in the rain, which means they're slippery much of the year. If you hit one even slightly leaned into a turn, you're slipping, and if you have poor reflexes, you're going down. I'm amazed I haven't seen more crashes on those things.

The real solution is moving to some place with adequately wide roads and fewer cars -- yet progressive enough that the guys-with-banjos aren't trying to kill you. I'm not sure where that is. Maybe Frank's magical village.

-- Jay Beattie.

At least the ones you came across are plastic; the ones I saw in a city near me are metal = just lovely in the rain or snow. Screw the bike lane with those metal plates, I'll chance riding on the road in traffic where those metal plates are located on the MUP.

Cheers