Making "protected" bike lanes safe

On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:04:00 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 6:05:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:42:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Cyclists already pay the near-mythical "road tax" because most road
construction is NOT funded by gas tax. And try computing the dollar cost
of road damage caused by bicycles, compared to cars and (especially)
heavy trucks. See
https://streets.mn/2016/10/24/yes-bi...ir-fair-share/
and http://wwbpa.org/2011/10/who-pays-for-our-roads/
and https://frontiergroup.org/reports/fg/who-pays-roads ... and so on.

Even a really quick look shows that gas tax does go to support
highways
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics...147437054.html

John B.

Frank said MOST road construction is not funded by the gas tax. A very simple search on Google easily confirms this. I found only about 30% of road construction is paid by federal and state gas taxes combined. So the other 70% of road construction funding comes from my income taxes and all the other money I pay to the government. So I pay 70% of the cost of the Interstate road system in my state that I am legally forbidden to ever use. That's not fair to bicyclists.

The individual states control who may use the Interstate, see the
information from: https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?doc_id=2616

"Allowed on all interstates: Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota, and
Wyoming

Allowed on certain sections of interstate system: New Jersey (Permits
granted for particular use and location), North Carolina (DOT may
approve opening certain section), Pennsylvania (DOT may approve
opening certain section)

Allowed on interstates where no alternative route exists (usually
means access is prohibited in urban areas): Alaska, Arizona,
California, Colorado, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Oregon,
Texas, Utah, and Washington

Access not expressly prohibited: District of Columbia and Missouri


--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:04:00 -0700 (PDT), "

Frank said MOST road construction is not funded by the gas tax. A very simple search on Google easily confirms this. I found only about 30% of road construction is paid by federal and state gas taxes combined. So the other 70% of road construction funding comes from my income taxes and all the other money I pay to the government. So I pay 70% of the cost of the Interstate road system in my state that I am legally forbidden to ever use. That's not fair to bicyclists.
It's not just fuel taxes that are vehicle related taxes that help fund
roads. It's vehicle license fees and federal excise taxes on tires. And
tolls.

The question is "what percentage of roads are funded by non-vehicle
related taxes and fees?"

See https://taxfoundation.org/state-road-funding-2017/. So in
California, 38.2% of road spending is paid for by taxes unrelated to the
vehicle, i.e. income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes.

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 10:44:36 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:04:00 -0700 (PDT), "

Frank said MOST road construction is not funded by the gas tax. A very simple search on Google easily confirms this. I found only about 30% of road construction is paid by federal and state gas taxes combined. So the other 70% of road construction funding comes from my income taxes and all the other money I pay to the government. So I pay 70% of the cost of the Interstate road system in my state that I am legally forbidden to ever use. That's not fair to bicyclists.
It's not just fuel taxes that are vehicle related taxes that help fund
roads. It's vehicle license fees and federal excise taxes on tires. And
tolls.

The question is "what percentage of roads are funded by non-vehicle
related taxes and fees?"

See https://taxfoundation.org/state-road-funding-2017/. So in
California, 38.2% of road spending is paid for by taxes unrelated to the
vehicle, i.e. income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes.

In California and nationally, the vast majority of road construction costs ARE paid by federal, state and local gas tax, registration, weight-mile tax and similar vehicle-related taxes. http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/tpp/offices...iles/ctp07.pdf Local road maintenance often comes from local budgets, but then you have to look at local funding to determine whether local budgets include money from the state/federal gas tax/road funds. Some building, of course, is basically private -- as in developments and local improvement districts. As gas sales fall, more money is coming out of general funds, but often from special transportation taxes. https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/201...ocument/155731 We now have a bike excise tax on the sale of new bikes.

There is a very low financial burden on bicyclists for using the roads -- virtually none beyond paying ordinary local, state and federal taxes. In most states, there is no license or registration fee, gas tax, etc., etc. It is easy to argue that bicyclists are disproportionately benefited by large infrastructure projects. https://www.columbian.com/news/2013/...y-state-trail/ Personally, I don't care -- because I subsidize the dopes with twenty kids in public schools, and I buy gas anyway. I will compare my total tax burden to any of the pinheads driving the F350s and rolling coal.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 4/12/2019 8:42 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 16:47:33 -0700, sms
wrote:


...I think that
What has led to increased commuting more than anything is the network of
off-road multi-use paths that go from housing-rich areas to jobs-rich
areas, and the ability to use a bicycle for the first-mile/last-mile
when using mass transit.


But has all this money spent and work done significantly increased the
number of bicyclists? The U.S. population grew 0.7% in 2017, does the
growth in the use of bicycles grow at the same rate?

The U.S. Census Bureau says not, that Nationally, the percentage of
people who say they use a bike to get to work fell by 3.2 percent from
2016 to 2017.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ms/2319972002/

I love the pro-path propaganda in the

" 'It shows that while we have made investments over the last 20 years"
in bicycle infrastructure, 'we are still far from having safe and
connected networks that make people feel safe biking to work,' said Ken
McLeod, the league's policy director."

Wait - we've spent all this money on bicycle segregation, and bicycle
use is down, so it proves we have to spend MORE money on bicycle
segregation?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/13/2019 7:36 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 10:44:36 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:04:00 -0700 (PDT), "

Frank said MOST road construction is not funded by the gas tax. A very simple search on Google easily confirms this. I found only about 30% of road construction is paid by federal and state gas taxes combined. So the other 70% of road construction funding comes from my income taxes and all the other money I pay to the government. So I pay 70% of the cost of the Interstate road system in my state that I am legally forbidden to ever use. That's not fair to bicyclists.
It's not just fuel taxes that are vehicle related taxes that help fund
roads. It's vehicle license fees and federal excise taxes on tires. And
tolls.

The question is "what percentage of roads are funded by non-vehicle
related taxes and fees?"

See https://taxfoundation.org/state-road-funding-2017/. So in
California, 38.2% of road spending is paid for by taxes unrelated to the
vehicle, i.e. income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes.

In California and nationally, the vast majority of road construction costs ARE paid by federal, state and local gas tax, registration, weight-mile tax and similar vehicle-related taxes. http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/tpp/offices...iles/ctp07.pdf Local road maintenance often comes from local budgets, but then you have to look at local funding to determine whether local budgets include money from the state/federal gas tax/road funds. Some building, of course, is basically private -- as in developments and local improvement districts. As gas sales fall, more money is coming out of general funds, but often from special transportation taxes. https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/201...ocument/155731 We now have a bike excise tax on the sale of new bikes.

There is a very low financial burden on bicyclists for using the roads -- virtually none beyond paying ordinary local, state and federal taxes. In most states, there is no license or registration fee, gas tax, etc., etc. It is easy to argue that bicyclists are disproportionately benefited by large infrastructure projects. https://www.columbian.com/news/2013/...y-state-trail/ Personally, I don't care -- because I subsidize the dopes with twenty kids in public schools, and I buy gas anyway. I will compare my total tax burden to any of the pinheads driving the F350s and rolling coal.

-- Jay Beattie.

Thank you. I had to chuckle when I saw "Russell Seaton says that Frank
says..." because I know that there's this narrative out there, often
promoted by cyclists, about road funding, that's not accurate. Those
taxes on fuel also fund bicycle and pedestrian infrastructure and mass
transit.

The most effective tax on motor vehicles would be a per-mile tax because
it would not let electric vehicles or high-fuel economy vehicles out of
paying their fair share.

Cyclists are also paying taxes on the increased sales of prepared foods
and sales of various hydration products, beer. chain lubricants, and lycra.

On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 9:36:08 AM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 10:44:36 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:04:00 -0700 (PDT), "

Frank said MOST road construction is not funded by the gas tax. A very simple search on Google easily confirms this. I found only about 30% of road construction is paid by federal and state gas taxes combined.

The question is "what percentage of roads are funded by non-vehicle
related taxes and fees?"

See https://taxfoundation.org/state-road-funding-2017/. So in
California, 38.2% of road spending is paid for by taxes unrelated to the
vehicle, i.e. income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes.


In California and nationally, the vast majority of road construction costs ARE paid by federal, state and local gas tax, registration, weight-mile tax and similar vehicle-related taxes.
-- Jay Beattie.

To say I am skeptical of what Jay wrote is an understatement. I stand by my assertion that a majority of road funding is paid from other sources. Such as general income taxes. Not gas or motor vehicle related fees. I did a simple Google search and found the following.

Federal fuel taxes raised $36.4 billion in Fiscal Year 2016
State fuel taxes raise money too. On average state fuel tax is 31 cents per gallon. Federal is 18.4 cents per gallon. So all states raise $61.3 billion from fuel taxes. Total federal and state is $97.7 billion. Lets round that to $100.
California's 2019 budget is $190 billion and 7.5% goes to Transportation. Or $14.25 billion. Transportation might include trains and airplanes too. And all the administrative costs too. But I bet a vast majority of all the Transportation department's costs are spent on roads one way or another. Lets say $10 billion.

Now I said 30% of roads were paid by the fuel tax and 70% from other sources, such as income taxes. Jay said a VAST majority of road costs were paid by the fuel tax and other vehicle costs/taxes. I think VAST is at least 75%. About the opposite of what I said. So lets split the difference and say 50%.

I am excluding all the "other" costs Jay mentioned. No one has given an accurate or even inaccurate estimate of what all these "other" costs amount to. Or even what these "other" costs are. Are boat registration fees part of this "other"? Toll road fees? Parking tickets fines collected by the cops? Speeding tickets? How much are car registration fees in each state compared to their fuel tax costs?

So we have California with $10 billion road costs. And total all USA federal and state fuel taxes of $100 billion. So to pay for ALL of California's road costs it takes 10% of ALL federal and state fuel costs. To pay for only Half California it takes 5%. There are 50 states. California is 2% of this total. Does California get 5% of all federal fuel taxes to only pay for half its costs? I don't know how federal fuel taxes are allocated to all the 50 states. Population, miles of road, political favor? But I doubt California gets 5% of all federal fuel taxes to pay for only Half of its road transportation costs.

Based on these numbers, I'd say my statement that road costs are paid from other sources besides fuel and/or any transportation costs is far closer to the truth than Jay's claim that the VAST majority of California (and all states) road costs are paid from fuel and other transportation costs.

On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 5:49:56 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 9:36:08 AM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 10:44:36 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:04:00 -0700 (PDT), "

Frank said MOST road construction is not funded by the gas tax. A very simple search on Google easily confirms this. I found only about 30% of road construction is paid by federal and state gas taxes combined.

The question is "what percentage of roads are funded by non-vehicle
related taxes and fees?"

See https://taxfoundation.org/state-road-funding-2017/. So in
California, 38.2% of road spending is paid for by taxes unrelated to the
vehicle, i.e. income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes.


In California and nationally, the vast majority of road construction costs ARE paid by federal, state and local gas tax, registration, weight-mile tax and similar vehicle-related taxes.
-- Jay Beattie.

To say I am skeptical of what Jay wrote is an understatement. I stand by my assertion that a majority of road funding is paid from other sources. Such as general income taxes. Not gas or motor vehicle related fees. I did a simple Google search and found the following.

Federal fuel taxes raised $36.4 billion in Fiscal Year 2016
State fuel taxes raise money too. On average state fuel tax is 31 cents per gallon. Federal is 18.4 cents per gallon. So all states raise $61.3 billion from fuel taxes. Total federal and state is $97.7 billion. Lets round that to $100.
California's 2019 budget is $190 billion and 7.5% goes to Transportation. Or $14.25 billion. Transportation might include trains and airplanes too.. And all the administrative costs too. But I bet a vast majority of all the Transportation department's costs are spent on roads one way or another.. Lets say $10 billion.

Now I said 30% of roads were paid by the fuel tax and 70% from other sources, such as income taxes. Jay said a VAST majority of road costs were paid by the fuel tax and other vehicle costs/taxes. I think VAST is at least 75%. About the opposite of what I said. So lets split the difference and say 50%.

I am excluding all the "other" costs Jay mentioned. No one has given an accurate or even inaccurate estimate of what all these "other" costs amount to. Or even what these "other" costs are. Are boat registration fees part of this "other"? Toll road fees? Parking tickets fines collected by the cops? Speeding tickets? How much are car registration fees in each state compared to their fuel tax costs?

So we have California with $10 billion road costs. And total all USA federal and state fuel taxes of $100 billion. So to pay for ALL of California's road costs it takes 10% of ALL federal and state fuel costs. To pay for only Half California it takes 5%. There are 50 states. California is 2% of this total. Does California get 5% of all federal fuel taxes to only pay for half its costs? I don't know how federal fuel taxes are allocated to all the 50 states. Population, miles of road, political favor? But I doubt California gets 5% of all federal fuel taxes to pay for only Half of its road transportation costs.

Based on these numbers, I'd say my statement that road costs are paid from other sources besides fuel and/or any transportation costs is far closer to the truth than Jay's claim that the VAST majority of California (and all states) road costs are paid from fuel and other transportation costs.

Oregon example: https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/About/Pa...n-Funding.aspx

Roadway funding and transportation funding use a different mix of revenue sources. https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Planning...ng-Sources.pdf And to slice the pie even finer, different roads use a different mix -- state, county, local, etc. The oldest paved downtown streets in Portland were paved by the adjacent business owners, like an early LID. The road to my house was built by a developer in the 1940s. I know his family -- they're trying to mow-down the forest nextdoor. http://www.livablepdx..com/ (my neighbors -- my wife and I missed the picture).

Outside of urban renewal districts, private development and other specially designated areas, roads are funded with mostly vehicle-related taxes and charges. Here are some Oregon pie charts:
https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/ci...sportation.pdf California is pretty similar, although it has a lot more diversity in terms of programs and funding.

Segregated bike facilities can have unique funding sources: https://bikeportland.org/2016/11/23/...project-195921

Most budgets and revenue sources are available on line from state DOTs. You can check your own state. If some meatsack in a PU wants to argue about who paid for the road, it pretty much depends on the road -- and most of the dopes in cars who claim some superior right to the road are social dead-weights. I'm more than happy to compare tax bills, including gas tax and the bazillion other taxes I pay.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 4/14/2019 9:53 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 5:49:56 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 9:36:08 AM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 10:44:36 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:04:00 -0700 (PDT), "

Frank said MOST road construction is not funded by the gas tax. A very simple search on Google easily confirms this. I found only about 30% of road construction is paid by federal and state gas taxes combined.

The question is "what percentage of roads are funded by non-vehicle
related taxes and fees?"

See https://taxfoundation.org/state-road-funding-2017/. So in
California, 38.2% of road spending is paid for by taxes unrelated to the
vehicle, i.e. income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes.


In California and nationally, the vast majority of road construction costs ARE paid by federal, state and local gas tax, registration, weight-mile tax and similar vehicle-related taxes.
-- Jay Beattie.

To say I am skeptical of what Jay wrote is an understatement. I stand by my assertion that a majority of road funding is paid from other sources. Such as general income taxes. Not gas or motor vehicle related fees. I did a simple Google search and found the following.

Federal fuel taxes raised $36.4 billion in Fiscal Year 2016
State fuel taxes raise money too. On average state fuel tax is 31 cents per gallon. Federal is 18.4 cents per gallon. So all states raise $61.3 billion from fuel taxes. Total federal and state is $97.7 billion. Lets round that to $100.
California's 2019 budget is $190 billion and 7.5% goes to Transportation. Or $14.25 billion. Transportation might include trains and airplanes too. And all the administrative costs too. But I bet a vast majority of all the Transportation department's costs are spent on roads one way or another. Lets say $10 billion.

Now I said 30% of roads were paid by the fuel tax and 70% from other sources, such as income taxes. Jay said a VAST majority of road costs were paid by the fuel tax and other vehicle costs/taxes. I think VAST is at least 75%. About the opposite of what I said. So lets split the difference and say 50%.

I am excluding all the "other" costs Jay mentioned. No one has given an accurate or even inaccurate estimate of what all these "other" costs amount to. Or even what these "other" costs are. Are boat registration fees part of this "other"? Toll road fees? Parking tickets fines collected by the cops? Speeding tickets? How much are car registration fees in each state compared to their fuel tax costs?

So we have California with $10 billion road costs. And total all USA federal and state fuel taxes of $100 billion. So to pay for ALL of California's road costs it takes 10% of ALL federal and state fuel costs. To pay for only Half California it takes 5%. There are 50 states. California is 2% of this total. Does California get 5% of all federal fuel taxes to only pay for half its costs? I don't know how federal fuel taxes are allocated to all the 50 states. Population, miles of road, political favor? But I doubt California gets 5% of all federal fuel taxes to pay for only Half of its road transportation costs.

Based on these numbers, I'd say my statement that road costs are paid from other sources besides fuel and/or any transportation costs is far closer to the truth than Jay's claim that the VAST majority of California (and all states) road costs are paid from fuel and other transportation costs.

Oregon example: https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/About/Pa...n-Funding.aspx

Roadway funding and transportation funding use a different mix of revenue sources. https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Planning...ng-Sources.pdf And to slice the pie even finer, different roads use a different mix -- state, county, local, etc. The oldest paved downtown streets in Portland were paved by the adjacent business owners, like an early LID. The road to my house was built by a developer in the 1940s. I know his family -- they're trying to mow-down the forest nextdoor. http://www.livablepdx.com/ (my neighbors -- my wife and I missed the picture).

Outside of urban renewal districts, private development and other specially designated areas, roads are funded with mostly vehicle-related taxes and charges. Here are some Oregon pie charts:
https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/ci...sportation.pdf California is pretty similar, although it has a lot more diversity in terms of programs and funding.

Segregated bike facilities can have unique funding sources: https://bikeportland.org/2016/11/23/...project-195921

Most budgets and revenue sources are available on line from state DOTs. You can check your own state. If some meatsack in a PU wants to argue about who paid for the road, it pretty much depends on the road -- and most of the dopes in cars who claim some superior right to the road are social dead-weights. I'm more than happy to compare tax bills, including gas tax and the bazillion other taxes I pay.


+1
Maybe not the pile of $$$ you pay, but more than enough.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/14/2019 7:53 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

Oregon example: https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/About/Pa...n-Funding.aspx

Stop trying to confuse the issue with referenced facts.

On 4/14/2019 10:53 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 5:49:56 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 9:36:08 AM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 10:44:36 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:04:00 -0700 (PDT), "

Frank said MOST road construction is not funded by the gas tax. A very simple search on Google easily confirms this. I found only about 30% of road construction is paid by federal and state gas taxes combined.

The question is "what percentage of roads are funded by non-vehicle
related taxes and fees?"

See https://taxfoundation.org/state-road-funding-2017/. So in
California, 38.2% of road spending is paid for by taxes unrelated to the
vehicle, i.e. income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes.


In California and nationally, the vast majority of road construction costs ARE paid by federal, state and local gas tax, registration, weight-mile tax and similar vehicle-related taxes.
-- Jay Beattie.

To say I am skeptical of what Jay wrote is an understatement. I stand by my assertion that a majority of road funding is paid from other sources. Such as general income taxes. Not gas or motor vehicle related fees. I did a simple Google search and found the following.

Federal fuel taxes raised $36.4 billion in Fiscal Year 2016
State fuel taxes raise money too. On average state fuel tax is 31 cents per gallon. Federal is 18.4 cents per gallon. So all states raise $61.3 billion from fuel taxes. Total federal and state is $97.7 billion. Lets round that to $100.
California's 2019 budget is $190 billion and 7.5% goes to Transportation. Or $14.25 billion. Transportation might include trains and airplanes too. And all the administrative costs too. But I bet a vast majority of all the Transportation department's costs are spent on roads one way or another. Lets say $10 billion.

Now I said 30% of roads were paid by the fuel tax and 70% from other sources, such as income taxes. Jay said a VAST majority of road costs were paid by the fuel tax and other vehicle costs/taxes. I think VAST is at least 75%. About the opposite of what I said. So lets split the difference and say 50%.

I am excluding all the "other" costs Jay mentioned. No one has given an accurate or even inaccurate estimate of what all these "other" costs amount to. Or even what these "other" costs are. Are boat registration fees part of this "other"? Toll road fees? Parking tickets fines collected by the cops? Speeding tickets? How much are car registration fees in each state compared to their fuel tax costs?

So we have California with $10 billion road costs. And total all USA federal and state fuel taxes of $100 billion. So to pay for ALL of California's road costs it takes 10% of ALL federal and state fuel costs. To pay for only Half California it takes 5%. There are 50 states. California is 2% of this total. Does California get 5% of all federal fuel taxes to only pay for half its costs? I don't know how federal fuel taxes are allocated to all the 50 states. Population, miles of road, political favor? But I doubt California gets 5% of all federal fuel taxes to pay for only Half of its road transportation costs.

Based on these numbers, I'd say my statement that road costs are paid from other sources besides fuel and/or any transportation costs is far closer to the truth than Jay's claim that the VAST majority of California (and all states) road costs are paid from fuel and other transportation costs.

Oregon example: https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/About/Pa...n-Funding.aspx

Roadway funding and transportation funding use a different mix of revenue sources. https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Planning...ng-Sources.pdf And to slice the pie even finer, different roads use a different mix -- state, county, local, etc. The oldest paved downtown streets in Portland were paved by the adjacent business owners, like an early LID. The road to my house was built by a developer in the 1940s. I know his family -- they're trying to mow-down the forest nextdoor. http://www.livablepdx.com/ (my neighbors -- my wife and I missed the picture).

Outside of urban renewal districts, private development and other specially designated areas, roads are funded with mostly vehicle-related taxes and charges. Here are some Oregon pie charts:
https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/ci...sportation.pdf California is pretty similar, although it has a lot more diversity in terms of programs and funding.

First, I said most road construction is not funded by the gas tax. John
challenged that by saying the "gas tax does go to support highways." A
clever inversion, but not a rebuttal of my statement.

The discussion since then has broadened to include other (motor vehicle)
user fees. Jay is saying "mostly vehicle related taxes and charges." But
I talked specifically about gas tax.

And while I'm not a tax attorney (as I just proved while working on my
IRS forms), it seems the percentage of road construction covered by gas
tax varies considerably from state to state, and doubtlessly from road
to road within a state. Here's one source:
https://taxfoundation.org/statelocal...-separated-out

Note that the chart is including all highway costs, not just the
construction costs I mentioned. But the percentage paid by those taxes
and fees goes as low as 2% in Alaska. The article claims the national
average is 24%. (There may be other estimates from other sources, but
these are the sorts of things I've read in the past.)

Let's recall that this tempest-in-a-teapot initiated when John said "We
had a discussion fairly recently about bicycles paying road tax
and the group was solidly against it - buy a bike and use the roads
free?" The implication was that cyclists are not paying their way - that
they are somehow a burden on other taxpayers. It's flat wrong in more
than one way.

--
- Frank Krygowski