The most contentious element of bicycle design is (wait forit...trumpets, maestro) -- the stand!

Check this out and then return he http://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew..._haul_truckers

I must say I consider a bicycle designed for adults without a stand to be a sign of incompetence. I simply don't believe the designers who retrospectively foam at the mouth and try to make out that not supplying mounting points for a stand is matter of principle; they're just trying to bluster away their oversight: "Well for f*ck's sake." -- official Surly response.

A bike not having a stand is a dealbreaker for me. The absence arises from the same place as so much unwanted bicycle "heritage" creeping into design with deleterious effects, racing in the wretched Peugeot 10-speed era, whose influence seems ineradicable. I don't ride a Surly, though I admire their philosophy enough once to have considered building up a Karate Monkey, until I disovered precisely how crude it is. However, whoever makes my bike, I have zero intention of laying an expensive bike on the ground, and even less intention at my age of bending over inelegantly to pick up a loaded bike.. Both are silly things to expect a customer to do. Carrying a seperate stick in the luggage to prop up the bike -- see http://www.click-stand.com -- , and working with velcro ties (which will last how long before they lose their nap?), is a bodge Heath Robinson himself would reject out of hand.

This entire business of turning stands into the primary evil of touring bikes is one of the great duh-moments of bicycle design, and so widespread as to assume the dimensions of a mass-hysteria, which is why "for f*ck's sake" Surly and others overreact every time the subject is raised. Ask yourself how much it would cost, if you're having your own tubes drawn anyway, as many top bikemakers brag of doing, to have extra-long butts for mounting two-leg standers drawn into the front end of chain stays? The answer is peanuts.. This is about either not thinking of it, or reflexively, because of the hanging history of racing bike design, rejecting the few extra grammes, thus consigning cyclists to years of inconvenience for the sake of a few grammes.

It's plain guilt causing bicycle designers to get hot under the collar any time the subject of bicycle stands is raised.

Andre Jute
Plain thinking, plain speaking -- are the Amish taking converts?

On Monday, August 4, 2014 1:23:04 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
Check this out and then return he http://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew..._haul_truckers



I must say I consider a bicycle designed for adults without a stand to be a sign of incompetence. I simply don't believe the designers who retrospectively foam at the mouth and try to make out that not supplying mounting points for a stand is matter of principle; they're just trying to bluster away their oversight: "Well for f*ck's sake." -- official Surly response.



A bike not having a stand is a dealbreaker for me. The absence arises from the same place as so much unwanted bicycle "heritage" creeping into design with deleterious effects, racing in the wretched Peugeot 10-speed era, whose influence seems ineradicable. I don't ride a Surly, though I admire their philosophy enough once to have considered building up a Karate Monkey, until I disovered precisely how crude it is. However, whoever makes my bike, I have zero intention of laying an expensive bike on the ground, and even less intention at my age of bending over inelegantly to pick up a loaded bike. Both are silly things to expect a customer to do. Carrying a seperate stick in the luggage to prop up the bike -- see http://www.click-stand.com -- , and working with velcro ties (which will last how long before they lose their nap?), is a bodge Heath Robinson himself would reject out of hand.



This entire business of turning stands into the primary evil of touring bikes is one of the great duh-moments of bicycle design, and so widespread as to assume the dimensions of a mass-hysteria, which is why "for f*ck's sake" Surly and others overreact every time the subject is raised. Ask yourself how much it would cost, if you're having your own tubes drawn anyway, as many top bikemakers brag of doing, to have extra-long butts for mounting two-leg standers drawn into the front end of chain stays? The answer is peanuts. This is about either not thinking of it, or reflexively, because of the hanging history of racing bike design, rejecting the few extra grammes, thus consigning cyclists to years of inconvenience for the sake of a few grammes.



It's plain guilt causing bicycle designers to get hot under the collar any time the subject of bicycle stands is raised.



Andre Jute

Plain thinking, plain speaking -- are the Amish taking converts?

I came very close to buying a Surly LHT from a local bicycle shop until Surly, in a reply to an email of mine, informed me that the use of a kickstand on a LHT would void the frame warranty. Instead I had cantilever bosses and a few other items brazed onto another steel frame I had. Rhat other frame built up into a wonderful touring bicycle.

Cheers

On 5/08/2014 5:16 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, August 4, 2014 1:23:04 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
Check this out and then return he http://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew..._haul_truckers



I must say I consider a bicycle designed for adults without a stand to be a sign of incompetence. I simply don't believe the designers who retrospectively foam at the mouth and try to make out that not supplying mounting points for a stand is matter of principle; they're just trying to bluster away their oversight: "Well for f*ck's sake." -- official Surly response.



A bike not having a stand is a dealbreaker for me. The absence arises from the same place as so much unwanted bicycle "heritage" creeping into design with deleterious effects, racing in the wretched Peugeot 10-speed era, whose influence seems ineradicable. I don't ride a Surly, though I admire their philosophy enough once to have considered building up a Karate Monkey, until I disovered precisely how crude it is. However, whoever makes my bike, I have zero intention of laying an expensive bike on the ground, and even less intention at my age of bending over inelegantly to pick up a loaded bike. Both are silly things to expect a customer to do. Carrying a seperate stick in the luggage to prop up the bike -- see http://www.click-stand.com -- , and working with velcro ties (which will last how long before they lose their nap?), is a bodge Heath Robinson himself would reject out of hand.



This entire business of turning stands into the primary evil of touring bikes is one of the great duh-moments of bicycle design, and so widespread as to assume the dimensions of a mass-hysteria, which is why "for f*ck's sake" Surly and others overreact every time the subject is raised. Ask yourself how much it would cost, if you're having your own tubes drawn anyway, as many top bikemakers brag of doing, to have extra-long butts for mounting two-leg standers drawn into the front end of chain stays? The answer is peanuts. This is about either not thinking of it, or reflexively, because of the hanging history of racing bike design, rejecting the few extra grammes, thus consigning cyclists to years of inconvenience for the sake of a few grammes.



It's plain guilt causing bicycle designers to get hot under the collar any time the subject of bicycle stands is raised.



Andre Jute

Plain thinking, plain speaking -- are the Amish taking converts?

I came very close to buying a Surly LHT from a local bicycle shop until Surly, in a reply to an email of mine, informed me that the use of a kickstand on a LHT would void the frame warranty. Instead I had cantilever bosses and a few other items brazed onto another steel frame I had. Rhat other frame built up into a wonderful touring bicycle.

Cheers

My Ezee Torq pedelec cargo hauler has a Pletscher double centre stand
and very nice and convenient it is too. However, a bicycle laid down on
soft grass is a bicycle that cannot fall over. I accept the designers
pigheaded unwillingness to provide kickstand plate on my several Surly
because it's not that important in comparison with their many other good
quality. The day I can't bend a little to pick up a bicycle is the day I
give up cycling.
PH

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 12:49:53 AM UTC-4, Peter Howard wrote:
On 5/08/2014 5:16 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

On Monday, August 4, 2014 1:23:04 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:

Check this out and then return he http://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew..._haul_truckers







I must say I consider a bicycle designed for adults without a stand to be a sign of incompetence. I simply don't believe the designers who retrospectively foam at the mouth and try to make out that not supplying mounting points for a stand is matter of principle; they're just trying to bluster away their oversight: "Well for f*ck's sake." -- official Surly response.







A bike not having a stand is a dealbreaker for me. The absence arises from the same place as so much unwanted bicycle "heritage" creeping into design with deleterious effects, racing in the wretched Peugeot 10-speed era, whose influence seems ineradicable. I don't ride a Surly, though I admire their philosophy enough once to have considered building up a Karate Monkey, until I disovered precisely how crude it is. However, whoever makes my bike, I have zero intention of laying an expensive bike on the ground, and even less intention at my age of bending over inelegantly to pick up a loaded bike. Both are silly things to expect a customer to do. Carrying a seperate stick in the luggage to prop up the bike -- see http://www.click-stand.com -- , and working with velcro ties (which will last how long before they lose their nap?), is a bodge Heath Robinson himself would reject out of hand..







This entire business of turning stands into the primary evil of touring bikes is one of the great duh-moments of bicycle design, and so widespread as to assume the dimensions of a mass-hysteria, which is why "for f*ck's sake" Surly and others overreact every time the subject is raised. Ask yourself how much it would cost, if you're having your own tubes drawn anyway, as many top bikemakers brag of doing, to have extra-long butts for mounting two-leg standers drawn into the front end of chain stays? The answer is peanuts. This is about either not thinking of it, or reflexively, because of the hanging history of racing bike design, rejecting the few extra grammes, thus consigning cyclists to years of inconvenience for the sake of a few grammes.







It's plain guilt causing bicycle designers to get hot under the collar any time the subject of bicycle stands is raised.







Andre Jute



Plain thinking, plain speaking -- are the Amish taking converts?



I came very close to buying a Surly LHT from a local bicycle shop until Surly, in a reply to an email of mine, informed me that the use of a kickstand on a LHT would void the frame warranty. Instead I had cantilever bosses and a few other items brazed onto another steel frame I had. Rhat other frame built up into a wonderful touring bicycle.



Cheers



My Ezee Torq pedelec cargo hauler has a Pletscher double centre stand

and very nice and convenient it is too. However, a bicycle laid down on

soft grass is a bicycle that cannot fall over. I accept the designers

pigheaded unwillingness to provide kickstand plate on my several Surly

because it's not that important in comparison with their many other good

quality. The day I can't bend a little to pick up a bicycle is the day I

give up cycling.

PH

Once again it's a case of different strokes for different folks. there are many areas that ride through where the last thing I want t do is lay my bike down. This is also true when I want to take a picture of some wildlife like a deer. MAny times by the time you lay tthe bike down the game is long gone.

I think a kickstand can be a veery handy item on a bike even a loded touring bike when you want to stop and there's nothing handy to lean the bike agaist or strong enough to support it. I had a Bianchi MTB that I converted to drop bars and bar end shifters. Friends and i used to go to Northern Ontario for two weeks each spring/summer ad fall. We were totally self supported and had around 50 pounds ont the bikes when fully laded. That included many bottles of water. We each had two kickstands on the bikes. One kickstand was just behing the seat tube and the other one was a chainstay/seatstay mount. We had discs we'd out under the kickstands on soft ground. We never had a loaded bike fall over. It also made getting into the panniers very easy..

BTW, that Bianchi had fairly long chainstays and even with full fenders over 2.25 tires there was room to mount a water bottle cage to hold a 500ml bottle behind the seat tube. There were two bottles mounted on the top of the downtube (a 750 ml & a 500ml), one 750ml under the downtube and another 750ml one on the front of the seat tube. That bike had a 21" frame.

Cheers

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 5:49:53 AM UTC+1, Peter Howard wrote:

The day I can't bend a little to pick up a bicycle is the day I
give up cycling.

PH

A baboon with its red arse in the air, picking up its bike. Suits you well, Howie.

Why is cycling so full of fascists who think their way is the only way?

Andre Jute
Hilarious images on demand

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 6:52:40 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

BTW, that Bianchi had fairly long chainstays and even with full fenders over 2.25 tires there was room to mount a water bottle cage to hold a 500ml bottle behind the seat tube. There were two bottles mounted on the top of the downtube (a 750 ml & a 500ml), one 750ml under the downtube and another 750ml one on the front of the seat tube. That bike had a 21" frame.

There were real bikes in them days.

Andre Jute

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 12:32:13 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 6:52:40 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



BTW, that Bianchi had fairly long chainstays and even with full fenders over 2.25 tires there was room to mount a water bottle cage to hold a 500ml bottle behind the seat tube. There were two bottles mounted on the top of the downtube (a 750 ml & a 500ml), one 750ml under the downtube and another 750ml one on the front of the seat tube. That bike had a 21" frame.



There were real bikes in them days.



Andre Jute

Hi Andrew.

They did have some nice steel frames back then = mid 1980s. I's why I still like a vintage steel MTB hard tail no front suspensin bike for logging/mining road touring. Here's an image of that old Bianchi MTB before I converted it to drop bars and bar end shifters. The image quality is poor because it's a scan of a 3.5" x 5" photo. However you can see the water bottles which were in the same positions after the conversion to drop bars.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...n/photostream/

One of the roads we rode on a lot. This is one of the flat and relatively smooth sections.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...n/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...n/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...n/photostream/

Cheers

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 1:36:15 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 12:32:13 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 6:52:40 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:







BTW, that Bianchi had fairly long chainstays and even with full fenders over 2.25 tires there was room to mount a water bottle cage to hold a 500ml bottle behind the seat tube. There were two bottles mounted on the top of the downtube (a 750 ml & a 500ml), one 750ml under the downtube and another 750ml one on the front of the seat tube. That bike had a 21" frame.







There were real bikes in them days.







Andre Jute



Hi Andrew.



They did have some nice steel frames back then = mid 1980s. I's why I still like a vintage steel MTB hard tail no front suspensin bike for logging/mining road touring. Here's an image of that old Bianchi MTB before I converted it to drop bars and bar end shifters. The image quality is poor because it's a scan of a 3.5" x 5" photo. However you can see the water bottles which were in the same positions after the conversion to drop bars.



https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...n/photostream/



One of the roads we rode on a lot. This is one of the flat and relatively smooth sections.



https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...n/photostream/



https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...n/photostream/



https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...n/photostream/



Cheers

OOPS! Should have been:

Hi Andre.

Sorry about the improper spelling Andre.

Cheers

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 6:38:09 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Sorry about the improper spelling Andre.

No worries, as we used to say down under before the government made us go to college and speak proper.

Andre Jute

On Mon, 4 Aug 2014 10:23:04 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

It's plain guilt causing bicycle designers to get hot under
the collar any time the subject of bicycle stands is raised.

If they become overheated when raising anything, they probably need
more exercise.

I had kickstands on most of my bicycles over the years. About 20
years ago, I decided that in their then current manifestation, that
kickstands were a bad idea. With a top heavy load, such as a bag of
groceries on the rear rack, they were easily toppled. I also had the
juvenile and suicidal habit of lowering the kickstand with my foot
while coming to a stop. That worked most of the time, but sending me
to a first aid station the remaining times. As I vaguely recall, I've
had more incidents with my left pant cuff getting caught in the
kickstand, then my right cuff getting caught in the chainwheel.

While riding locally in the hills, I usually carry a 1 meter length of
3/5" PVC pipe. It wasn't originally intended as a kickstand, but
rather as a dog deterrent. It has also proven useful for tapping on
automobile windows. I've thought of using it as a rocket launching
tube, but never had the time to build one. At some point in the
distant past, I added a modified PVC "T" connector for it to act as a
kickstand.
http://www.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/PVC-kickstand.html
The other end really should be pointed or crenulated to get a better
grip on the ground, but a straight cut works on dirt. I could also
make it telescoping and adjustable, but haven't found a need.
Unfortunately, like the traditional kickstand, mine tends to topple
with a top heavy load. My solution is simply to not use it when
schlepping a top heavy load.

Like a kickstand, I've lusted after a carryable workstand. Having the
rear wheel off the ground and the bike level would allow me to
maintenance on the rear wheel on the road. Such rear dropout mounted
kickstands are somewhat popular in Japan:
https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+bicycle+kick+stand&tbm=isch
(First two rows of photos).

Andre Jute
Plain thinking, plain speaking -- are the Amish taking converts?

Ideas always start out plain and simple, and soon accelerate towards
complexity. If it seems easy, simple, obvious, and devoid of
problems, you've probably missed a fatal flaw.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558