Fun with red light runners (vehicles)

Dan O writes:

On Thursday, June 5, 2014 4:56:15 PM UTC-7, Dan O wrote:
On Thursday, June 5, 2014 4:35:09 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:

Yesterday I was in San Francisco. Usually, when a light turns red, three

or four cars run the red light. But yesterday me, and a group of others,

stepped off the curb the instant we got the walk signal and I held up my

hand and yelled "STOP" and made the three cars that were running the red

light stop (we were crossing on the far side of the intersection of

which they were running the red light). They stopped, blocking the whole

intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene

gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.



"I'm walkin' here!"



I am all for pedestrians right-of-way in any reasonable circumstance;

and I kind of like the idea of disrupting the cager mentality that

they own the road, but...



What you're describing sounds kind of illegal, somehow - regardless

of the signal light's status. ... Oh, "the far side... they were

running the red" - yeah, that definitely sounds illegal.


By this I mean it sounds (like it ought to be) definitely
illegal to just bound into the street when it's apparent
(the cars are already "running the red") that imminently
approaching traffic does not intend to stop.

If they *can't* stop, eg it's a dump truck doing slow 360s as it slides
on the ice (cue Blue Danube), then sure, stepping off the curb is
negligent, suicidal. The same if they *really* haven't noticed that the
light is red. But it sounds like these guys just didn't feel like
yielding.

I don't see that many straight line light runners, but around here a
protected left is not easily relinquished, and after that left green
arrow turns red drivers in the turn lane tend to keep up a train,
until someone in the oncoming lane eases out into the intersection and
puts a stop to it. I do that whether I'm driving or riding, and,
because they *know* they don't have the right of way it's not dangerous,
just requires a bit of assertiveness.

There is a 4-way stop light near where I used to live that is set up so
that two lanes actually have a protected left at the beginning of their
green light, although there is no arrow to signal it. After perhaps 45
seconds they lose it, and the only way to tell is the oncoming traffic.
It's not the only one.

Oddly enough, drivers seem to manage this intersection at least as well
as a nearby one with green left arrows, although it's an absurdly bad
design, and completely hostile for those not familiar with it. That
intersection light got some right green arrows a few years ago, so I
know it's not cost that prevents it being changed; I assume it's the
traffic engineers version of "at least do no harm".



Not that the letter of the law carries much weight with me, but I

know some folks make a fuss about being law abiding that way.



I prefer to stand on the corner and flip them off.


--

jbeattie writes:

On Friday, June 6, 2014 6:23:52 AM UTC-7, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per sms:

They stopped, blocking the whole

intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene

gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.



40 years ago when I was living in Hawaii, something like that could get

you cuffed around in the best case, hurt in the worst case.



In Waikiki the cops wrote tickets to any cars crossing a pedestrian zone

when a pedistrian was in the zone.... so people would slam on their

brakes as soon as you stepped off the curb... but, being Hawaiians,

they did not take that inconvenience passively.

Portland drivers are nice but
incompetent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8mRd-Yh-Fc We get our
share of light runners, but there is a freakish adherence to the
crosswalk law downtown. Pedestrians just get close to a crosswalk,
and cars slam on their brakes. This is tough for me since there are
about a zillion crosswalks on my route down SW 4th -- and places where
there is a crosswalk practically next to (say 30 feet) from another
crosswalk. It's bizarre. These are all mid-block and not at lights,
although some are right next to intersections. I would think that for
traffic flow, you would make the pedestrians walk maybe fifty feet to
the nearest light.

The crosswalk discipline I see is directly tied to enforcement. I have
seen the cops in my town running a sting at the mid-block crosswalk in
front of the public library, and, sure enough, drivers actually stop
there. A mile away there is a similar crosswalk by my house -- no one
stops or even slows down for two white people with a baby carriage.


--

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 6/6/2014 9:23 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per sms:
They stopped, blocking the whole
intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene
gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.

40 years ago when I was living in Hawaii, something like that could get
you cuffed around in the best case, hurt in the worst case.

In Waikiki the cops wrote tickets to any cars crossing a pedestrian zone
when a pedistrian was in the zone.... so people would slam on their
brakes as soon as you stepped off the curb... but, being Hawaiians,
they did not take that inconvenience passively.

At one intersection near our university, it was common for cars to cut
off pedestrians that way, despite the "Yield to pedestrians in
crosswalk sign" - redundant, given the pedestrian green, but placed
for emphasis.

Here they have plastic signs that can be placed in the middle of the
street saying "State Law: Yield to pedestrians in crosswalk". They put
one up on my old street -- had to take it back after a month or so
because the edges of the sign were all tatty from cars clipping it.

My philosophy was the same as with motorists in a narrow lane. I made
sure I was directly and obviously in their way. They always stopped.

There was one incident where a young woman used her car to rush
towards me, stopped short and blared the horn. I continued walking
across at a normal pace. She accelerated as soon as I was clear,
missing me by inches, but my briefcase "accidentally" hit her rear
fender. She slammed on the brakes and opened her driver's door to
yell at me, at which point another driver opened his window to yell at
_her_!

I turned her license number in, and was told the cops couldn't ticket
her, since they didn't observe the incident; but they would certainly
pay her a visit.

--

On 6/6/2014 7:34 PM, Radey wrote:
Dan O writes:

On Thursday, June 5, 2014 4:56:15 PM UTC-7, Dan O wrote:
On Thursday, June 5, 2014 4:35:09 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:

Yesterday I was in San Francisco. Usually, when a light turns red, three

or four cars run the red light. But yesterday me, and a group of others,

stepped off the curb the instant we got the walk signal and I held up my

hand and yelled "STOP" and made the three cars that were running the red

light stop (we were crossing on the far side of the intersection of

which they were running the red light). They stopped, blocking the whole

intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene

gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.



"I'm walkin' here!"



I am all for pedestrians right-of-way in any reasonable circumstance;

and I kind of like the idea of disrupting the cager mentality that

they own the road, but...



What you're describing sounds kind of illegal, somehow - regardless

of the signal light's status. ... Oh, "the far side... they were

running the red" - yeah, that definitely sounds illegal.


By this I mean it sounds (like it ought to be) definitely
illegal to just bound into the street when it's apparent
(the cars are already "running the red") that imminently
approaching traffic does not intend to stop.

If they *can't* stop, eg it's a dump truck doing slow 360s as it slides
on the ice (cue Blue Danube), then sure, stepping off the curb is
negligent, suicidal. The same if they *really* haven't noticed that the
light is red. But it sounds like these guys just didn't feel like
yielding.

I don't see that many straight line light runners, but around here a
protected left is not easily relinquished, and after that left green
arrow turns red drivers in the turn lane tend to keep up a train,
until someone in the oncoming lane eases out into the intersection and
puts a stop to it.

Yes, the protected left is the worst. If I'm in front at the red light,
on a multi-lane road, and the other cars in the other lanes are alert,
it's fun to go when our light turns green and force the red-light
runners to stop, usually in a position where they can't back up and if a
cop came along they'd get a ginormous ticket.

Again, we're not talking about vehicles that were in the intersection
when the light turned red, we're talking about serial red light runners.
Near my house, the worst place for this sort of thing is the
intersection of De Anza Boulevard and Infinite Loop, where those
entering the Apple campus have not yet gotten the concept of what each
color means.

sms writes:

On 6/6/2014 7:34 PM, Radey wrote:
Dan O writes:

On Thursday, June 5, 2014 4:56:15 PM UTC-7, Dan O wrote:
On Thursday, June 5, 2014 4:35:09 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:

Yesterday I was in San Francisco. Usually, when a light turns red, three

or four cars run the red light. But yesterday me, and a group of others,

stepped off the curb the instant we got the walk signal and I held up my

hand and yelled "STOP" and made the three cars that were running the red

light stop (we were crossing on the far side of the intersection of

which they were running the red light). They stopped, blocking the whole

intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene

gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.



"I'm walkin' here!"



I am all for pedestrians right-of-way in any reasonable circumstance;

and I kind of like the idea of disrupting the cager mentality that

they own the road, but...



What you're describing sounds kind of illegal, somehow - regardless

of the signal light's status. ... Oh, "the far side... they were

running the red" - yeah, that definitely sounds illegal.


By this I mean it sounds (like it ought to be) definitely
illegal to just bound into the street when it's apparent
(the cars are already "running the red") that imminently
approaching traffic does not intend to stop.

If they *can't* stop, eg it's a dump truck doing slow 360s as it slides
on the ice (cue Blue Danube), then sure, stepping off the curb is
negligent, suicidal. The same if they *really* haven't noticed that the
light is red. But it sounds like these guys just didn't feel like
yielding.

I don't see that many straight line light runners, but around here a
protected left is not easily relinquished, and after that left green
arrow turns red drivers in the turn lane tend to keep up a train,
until someone in the oncoming lane eases out into the intersection and
puts a stop to it.

Yes, the protected left is the worst. If I'm in front at the red
light, on a multi-lane road, and the other cars in the other lanes are
alert, it's fun to go when our light turns green and force the
red-light runners to stop, usually in a position where they can't back
up and if a cop came along they'd get a ginormous ticket.

To each his own, I guess, although to me that sounds like a good way for
a person to get himself hurt.

Again, we're not talking about vehicles that were in the intersection
when the light turned red, we're talking about serial red light
runners. Near my house, the worst place for this sort of thing is the
intersection of De Anza Boulevard and Infinite Loop, where those
entering the Apple campus have not yet gotten the concept of what each
color means.


--

Radey writes:

Dan O writes:

On Thursday, June 5, 2014 4:56:15 PM UTC-7, Dan O wrote:
On Thursday, June 5, 2014 4:35:09 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:

Yesterday I was in San Francisco. Usually, when a light turns red, three

or four cars run the red light. But yesterday me, and a group of others,

stepped off the curb the instant we got the walk signal and I held up my

hand and yelled "STOP" and made the three cars that were running the red

light stop (we were crossing on the far side of the intersection of

which they were running the red light). They stopped, blocking the whole

intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene

gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.



"I'm walkin' here!"



I am all for pedestrians right-of-way in any reasonable circumstance;

and I kind of like the idea of disrupting the cager mentality that

they own the road, but...



What you're describing sounds kind of illegal, somehow - regardless

of the signal light's status. ... Oh, "the far side... they were

running the red" - yeah, that definitely sounds illegal.


By this I mean it sounds (like it ought to be) definitely
illegal to just bound into the street when it's apparent
(the cars are already "running the red") that imminently
approaching traffic does not intend to stop.

If they *can't* stop, eg it's a dump truck doing slow 360s as it slides
on the ice (cue Blue Danube), then sure, stepping off the curb is
negligent, suicidal. The same if they *really* haven't noticed that the
light is red. But it sounds like these guys just didn't feel like
yielding.

I don't see that many straight line light runners, but around here a
protected left is not easily relinquished, and after that left green
arrow turns red drivers in the turn lane tend to keep up a train,
until someone in the oncoming lane eases out into the intersection and
puts a stop to it. I do that whether I'm driving or riding, and,
because they *know* they don't have the right of way it's not dangerous,
just requires a bit of assertiveness.

There is a 4-way stop light near where I used to live that is set up so
that two lanes actually have a protected left at the beginning of their
green light, although there is no arrow to signal it. After perhaps 45
seconds they lose it, and the only way to tell is the oncoming traffic.
It's not the only one.

Oddly enough, drivers seem to manage this intersection at least as well
as a nearby one with green left arrows, although it's an absurdly bad
design, and completely hostile for those not familiar with it. That
intersection light got some right green arrows a few years ago, so I
know it's not cost that prevents it being changed; I assume it's the
traffic engineers version of "at least do no harm".

My wife had a light like that on her ride home from work.
Really stupid design---it only worked because 99% of the people
using it were commuting and used it everyday, so knew how it worked.
It was finally replaced in the last year.

--
Joe Riel

On 6/7/2014 1:27 PM, Joe Riel wrote:
Radey writes:

Dan O writes:

snip

There is a 4-way stop light near where I used to live that is set up so
that two lanes actually have a protected left at the beginning of their
green light, although there is no arrow to signal it. After perhaps 45
seconds they lose it, and the only way to tell is the oncoming traffic.
It's not the only one.

Oddly enough, drivers seem to manage this intersection at least as well
as a nearby one with green left arrows, although it's an absurdly bad
design, and completely hostile for those not familiar with it. That
intersection light got some right green arrows a few years ago, so I
know it's not cost that prevents it being changed; I assume it's the
traffic engineers version of "at least do no harm".

My wife had a light like that on her ride home from work.
Really stupid design---it only worked because 99% of the people
using it were commuting and used it everyday, so knew how it worked.
It was finally replaced in the last year.

What is very confusing to drivers are the red arrows. Technically a red
area means "no right turn" (or in the case of two one-way streets
intersecting, and some other cases "no left turn").

What they really need is a slash through an arrow to make it clear.

sms writes:

On 6/7/2014 1:27 PM, Joe Riel wrote:
Radey writes:

Dan O writes:

snip

There is a 4-way stop light near where I used to live that is set up so
that two lanes actually have a protected left at the beginning of their
green light, although there is no arrow to signal it. After perhaps 45
seconds they lose it, and the only way to tell is the oncoming traffic.
It's not the only one.

Oddly enough, drivers seem to manage this intersection at least as well
as a nearby one with green left arrows, although it's an absurdly bad
design, and completely hostile for those not familiar with it. That
intersection light got some right green arrows a few years ago, so I
know it's not cost that prevents it being changed; I assume it's the
traffic engineers version of "at least do no harm".

My wife had a light like that on her ride home from work.
Really stupid design---it only worked because 99% of the people
using it were commuting and used it everyday, so knew how it worked.
It was finally replaced in the last year.

What is very confusing to drivers are the red arrows. Technically a
red area means "no right turn" (or in the case of two one-way streets
intersecting, and some other cases "no left turn").

What they really need is a slash through an arrow to make it clear.

I believe that at one time the intersection [my wife deals with] was a
three-way, or at least essentially a three-way because the far road was
a dead-end. The lack of a left turn signal was reasonable. The problem
came when the road was built through but the light never changed. It
was like that for quite a few years.

--
Joe Riel