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Before & after bike ghettos



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 19th 10, 01:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/19/2010 4:06 AM, Chalo wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:

Go to Google Maps, get (bicycle) directions from downtown (say State
Street) to Logan Airport. The route depicted does a better job than I
could displaying the problem, especially if you "street view" some of
the roads you'd be riding on.


Far out. Goo-maps says 3.4 miles/8 minutes by car, 10.0 miles/59
minutes by bike. I don't doubt it, but that's really goofy.

Understand that is typical for all the
coast north of the city, south of the city is much the same.

We live in very different worlds. Your "metro" areas have lower
densities than my "leafy suburbs".


It doesn't help that Boston area drivers are a bunch of
counterproductive jerks, in my recent observation. Or that trying to
go anywhere, by any means, in Boston can be an infuriatingly
ineffectual process.

Chalo


I'm not sure which is cause and effect. Boston is tough because of
geography (harbor & 3 rivers), colonial street layouts, and one of the
least graceful highway overlays in the 50-60's motoring Great Leap
Forward. In response, Boston developed a driving culture that is
famously no holds barred, and has been awarded the worst cycling booby
prize several times. It's no sun belt metropolis, nor neatly gridded
Gotham. If there was a city that could be a US Amsterdam, it might well
be Boston.
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  #2  
Old October 19th 10, 01:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Duane Hebert[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

"Peter Cole" wrote in message ...
On 10/19/2010 4:06 AM, Chalo wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:


I'm not sure which is cause and effect. Boston is tough because of
geography (harbor & 3 rivers), colonial street layouts, and one of the
least graceful highway overlays in the 50-60's motoring Great Leap
Forward. In response, Boston developed a driving culture that is
famously no holds barred, and has been awarded the worst cycling booby
prize several times. It's no sun belt metropolis, nor neatly gridded
Gotham. If there was a city that could be a US Amsterdam, it might well
be Boston.


I think that it's a combination of the way the streets are laid out
coupled with the intense work drive that makes everyone in a hurry.

New Orleans, for example, has the same sort of winding streets due
to the crescent of the Mississippi river but the pace there is much slower.
Of course, NOLA's stat of the most bars per capita offers its own problems
with driving and cycling.
  #3  
Old October 19th 10, 05:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Radey Shouman
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

Peter Cole writes:

On 10/19/2010 4:06 AM, Chalo wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:

Go to Google Maps, get (bicycle) directions from downtown (say State
Street) to Logan Airport. The route depicted does a better job than I
could displaying the problem, especially if you "street view" some of
the roads you'd be riding on.


Far out. Goo-maps says 3.4 miles/8 minutes by car, 10.0 miles/59
minutes by bike. I don't doubt it, but that's really goofy.

Understand that is typical for all the
coast north of the city, south of the city is much the same.

We live in very different worlds. Your "metro" areas have lower
densities than my "leafy suburbs".


It doesn't help that Boston area drivers are a bunch of
counterproductive jerks, in my recent observation. Or that trying to
go anywhere, by any means, in Boston can be an infuriatingly
ineffectual process.

Chalo


I'm not sure which is cause and effect. Boston is tough because of
geography (harbor & 3 rivers), colonial street layouts, and one of the
least graceful highway overlays in the 50-60's motoring Great Leap
Forward. In response, Boston developed a driving culture that is
famously no holds barred, and has been awarded the worst cycling booby
prize several times. It's no sun belt metropolis, nor neatly gridded
Gotham. If there was a city that could be a US Amsterdam, it might
well be Boston.


Another problem, perhaps not so obvious to long time residents, is the
ridiculously inadequate signage. Yankee frugenuity dictates that where
a great street meets a lesser street, at most the lesser one be labeled.
After all, if you don't *know* you're on Governor Dummer Highway, you're
obviously not from around here, and probably up to no good.

This signage attitude is not unique to Boston, it seems to hold
throughout New England. In the quieter parts, though, a person can stop
and try to figure out where he is.
  #4  
Old October 19th 10, 06:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/19/2010 12:03 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

Another problem, perhaps not so obvious to long time residents, is the
ridiculously inadequate signage. Yankee frugenuity dictates that where
a great street meets a lesser street, at most the lesser one be labeled.
After all, if you don't *know* you're on Governor Dummer Highway, you're
obviously not from around here, and probably up to no good.

This signage attitude is not unique to Boston, it seems to hold
throughout New England. In the quieter parts, though, a person can stop
and try to figure out where he is.


Well, as a "long time resident", I'd have to say it's both obvious and
annoying to me. Sometimes there's just no arguing with tradition around
here, frugal or otherwise. Things are changing though, Boston is far
less parochial than it was even in the 80's, but some of those changes
haven't been good. The area was lagging behind the nation in sprawl, but
then caught up quite a bit in the last boom.

The other thing about Boston is that it has more students per capita
than any other US metro area. This means that Boston is way more
depopulated in the summer, the change is striking -- not so much in the
spring when students seem to leave at staggered intervals, but really in
the fall when the city suddenly becomes a mass of double-parked U-hauls,
and the traffic density jumps overnight -- including many out-of-state
drivers, often lost and at a Darwinian disadvantage.
  #5  
Old October 19th 10, 07:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Radey Shouman
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

Peter Cole writes:

On 10/19/2010 12:03 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

Another problem, perhaps not so obvious to long time residents, is the
ridiculously inadequate signage. Yankee frugenuity dictates that where
a great street meets a lesser street, at most the lesser one be labeled.
After all, if you don't *know* you're on Governor Dummer Highway, you're
obviously not from around here, and probably up to no good.

This signage attitude is not unique to Boston, it seems to hold
throughout New England. In the quieter parts, though, a person can stop
and try to figure out where he is.


Well, as a "long time resident", I'd have to say it's both obvious and
annoying to me. Sometimes there's just no arguing with tradition
around here, frugal or otherwise. Things are changing though, Boston
is far less parochial than it was even in the 80's, but some of those
changes haven't been good. The area was lagging behind the nation in
sprawl, but then caught up quite a bit in the last boom.


Most other places I have lived or visited have some notion of civic
hospitality: they want, or believe they should want, visitors to feel
welcome, and are willing to spend a little public money to make it so.
New Englanders apparently do not. Individually many are hospitable, but
most consider any money at all spent to benefit outsiders to be
purely wasted. Signs for streets every local should know fall into this
category. Accomodations for out-of-town cyclists do as well.

Perhaps this attitude is simply the result of a long experience of local
democracy, I don't know

The other thing about Boston is that it has more students per capita
than any other US metro area. This means that Boston is way more
depopulated in the summer, the change is striking -- not so much in
the spring when students seem to leave at staggered intervals, but
really in the fall when the city suddenly becomes a mass of
double-parked U-hauls, and the traffic density jumps overnight --
including many out-of-state drivers, often lost and at a Darwinian
disadvantage.


It is certainly true that traffic really picks up around the beginning
of September. I think part of the change is the number of parents that
begin dropping children off at school, pinning their routes and
schedules down more than they are during the summer.

  #6  
Old October 19th 10, 07:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Duane Hebert[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

"Radey Shouman" wrote in message ...
Peter Cole writes:

On 10/19/2010 12:03 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:


Most other places I have lived or visited have some notion of civic
hospitality: they want, or believe they should want, visitors to feel
welcome, and are willing to spend a little public money to make it so.
New Englanders apparently do not. Individually many are hospitable, but
most consider any money at all spent to benefit outsiders to be
purely wasted. Signs for streets every local should know fall into this
category. Accomodations for out-of-town cyclists do as well.


It depends though. I've been to some nice bike friendly (or ski friendly)
B&Bs in New Hamshire and Vermont. I think that if visitors are tourists
looking to spend money, the New Englanders will accommodate g


  #7  
Old October 19th 10, 08:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Radey Shouman
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

"Duane Hebert" writes:

"Radey Shouman" wrote in message ...
Peter Cole writes:

On 10/19/2010 12:03 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:


Most other places I have lived or visited have some notion of civic
hospitality: they want, or believe they should want, visitors to feel
welcome, and are willing to spend a little public money to make it so.
New Englanders apparently do not. Individually many are hospitable, but
most consider any money at all spent to benefit outsiders to be
purely wasted. Signs for streets every local should know fall into this
category. Accomodations for out-of-town cyclists do as well.


It depends though. I've been to some nice bike friendly (or ski friendly)
B&Bs in New Hamshire and Vermont. I think that if visitors are tourists
looking to spend money, the New Englanders will accommodate g


Precisely. Commercial hospitality, not civic hospitality. Welcoming
paid guests, not potential blow-ins.
  #8  
Old October 20th 10, 03:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Posts: 4,572
Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/19/2010 2:34 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

Most other places I have lived or visited have some notion of civic
hospitality: they want, or believe they should want, visitors to feel
welcome, and are willing to spend a little public money to make it so.
New Englanders apparently do not. Individually many are hospitable, but
most consider any money at all spent to benefit outsiders to be
purely wasted. Signs for streets every local should know fall into this
category. Accomodations for out-of-town cyclists do as well.

Perhaps this attitude is simply the result of a long experience of local
democracy, I don't know


The Boston area was, at least at one time, noted for its network of
public spaces. The famous "Emerald Necklace" was designed by Frederick
Law Olmsted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_Necklace. The greater
Boston area is loaded with various public spaces acquired over the years
and grand structures erected for the common use.

Massachusetts is over 60% forested, and ranks 35th in percentage of
public land, unlike Iowa, at #49, ahead of only Kansas. Also in New
England, NH ranks #19.

Unlike an industrial farming hell hole like Iowa, where GM monoculture
spreads for endless miles, spreading toxic runoff all the way to the
Gulf of Mexico, and sewage lagoons dot the landscape, breeding the next
strain of antibiotic resistant bug, Massachusetts retains much of its
original landscape and natural resources. People come to New England to
enjoy its seashores, mountains and winding country roads. People ride
bikes here to enjoy the scenery, not for fried dough and beer. Fried
clams, maybe.

A quick survey in any of the popular areas -- Cape Cod, NH's White
Mountains, the Maine coast, will reveal a high percentage of out of
state plates. Hardly a testimony to an unwelcome reception.

My "overpopulated" town, despite being only 6 miles from downtown
Boston, is bordered by a river clean enough for swimming and to support
a population of herons, otters and seasonal herring runs. My urban
street is wandered by coyotes, fox, deer, rabbit, groundhog and even the
occasional moose, and overflown by hawks and harriers, occasionally
making kills outside my window. All that, and the restoration of the
harbor and coast was accomplished with billions of public dollars. That
is civics in action.

I can drive 75 miles to the Cape and sail my sailboat to a stone's throw
from the Obama & Kennedy families summer spots, with a 12 acre island to
myself in a pristine and protected coastal area on a mid-summer's day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFByfOJGMqo The whole area is loaded with
public resources, many preserved since colonial times. I'm an "outsider"
there, too.

This weekend is the "Head of the Charles Regatta", an event where
thousands of rowers come from around the country (& world sometimes) to
compete on the river that runs straight through Boston. The next Boston
Marathon sold out registrations (20,000) in 8 hours. Boston draws
hundreds of thousands of students from the country and world to spend
four or more years at our universities, many of them decide to stay on.

Tourism is a huge part of the New England economy, and taken seriously
in Boston & Massachusetts, too. While that may be dismissed as only
being business-like, the large historical and contemporary investments
in public spaces, unlike places like Iowa, indicate the importance
placed on those public areas and resources. They are for all, including
"outsiders".

As for "friendliness", I don't know how to measure that directly, but it
seems that people who choose to live among lots of other people must
like people more than those who choose the prairie. I don't see evidence
of anti-outsider sentiment in Boston, Massachusetts or New England.
Additionally, I have experienced far more tolerance here than in other
parts of the US (like northern CA, parts of OR, *all* of IN, never mind
the deep South). I found Texas to be "friendly", but hardly "tolerant".
Given the choice, I'll take tolerance, especially when riding a bike.
You may find the frugal omission of street signs inhospitable, but I
find the usual lack of bullet holes more welcoming.

  #9  
Old October 20th 10, 04:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Duane Hebert[_2_]
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Posts: 133
Default Before & after bike ghettos

"Peter Cole" wrote in message ...
On 10/19/2010 2:34 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:


I can drive 75 miles to the Cape and sail my sailboat to a stone's throw
from the Obama & Kennedy families summer spots, with a 12 acre island to
myself in a pristine and protected coastal area on a mid-summer's day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFByfOJGMqo The whole area is loaded with
public resources, many preserved since colonial times. I'm an "outsider"
there, too.


Have you done the Hyannis to P-town ride? I remember that was
pretty much fun.
  #10  
Old October 20th 10, 04:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/20/2010 11:08 AM, Duane Hebert wrote:
"Peter Cole" wrote in message
...
On 10/19/2010 2:34 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:


I can drive 75 miles to the Cape and sail my sailboat to a stone's
throw from the Obama & Kennedy families summer spots, with a 12 acre
island to myself in a pristine and protected coastal area on a
mid-summer's day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFByfOJGMqo The whole
area is loaded with public resources, many preserved since colonial
times. I'm an "outsider" there, too.


Have you done the Hyannis to P-town ride? I remember that was
pretty much fun.


There's a guy in my club (Charles River Wheelmen) who organizes a ride
every year from Boston (or Plymouth for some riders) to P-town, taking
the ferry back. I've never done it, despite wanting to. I haven't much
experience riding the Cape. I go there so much to sail that it pretty
much burns me out for other stuff.

We have another ride "Tour of New England", where the gimmick is to ride
through every New England state over the Memorial Day weekend, ~350
miles in 3 days. I've done that a few times. When the weather is good,
it's amazing, but you can get 3 days of 40 degree rain -- not the usual,
but it has happened.

I've also done a fair number of local "brevets", worked my way up to
400K, but never went the distance (600K) for the full series, nor the
Boston-Montreal-Boston (1200K), which, conveniently starts in my home
town. Some day I'd love to do it, it just takes gobs of time to prepare.
All night rides through the New England countryside in June can be
magical or horrible, again mostly depending on the weather, but mostly
beautiful.

I'd point out that while roaming over New England by bike, I never felt
any inhospitable treatment, maybe I just have low standards, but people
seemed friendly enough, and quite tolerant of cyclists.
 




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