#1
|
|||
|
|||
Radial spokes?
I got quite a nice $2 26" wheel from the tip salvage shop. Shimano HB
M-564 hub, 36 x DT 2mm straight gauge spokes laced to Sun Rims Rhyno Lite. It even ran true to begin with though I believe it to be quite old as that Shimano hub is a 1990's one that's labelled Parallax as they were back then. The nice wide rim (22mm between bead seats) is not unduly worn in the brake tracks and exhibits no cracking around the spoke ferrules. However, the thing is radially spoked. I've never built a front wheel other than three cross, believing that if I'm going to the trouble and expense I might as well build it as "strong" as possible. I did some googling for radial spoking and confirmed my recollection that you can get away with it on a rim braked front wheel though some hub manufacturers positively forbid it. My high powered x-ray vision detects no cracking between hub spoke holes and I conclude that I could use the wheel as it is on a commuter/grocery-getter bike. The slightly weird Shimano hub has been cleaned, inspected, regreased and passed fit for further service. Can anyone who has built wheels tell me why anyone would want to radially spoke a 26" MTB wheel using quite decent components when it's just as easy to do two or three cross? PH |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Radial spokes?
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 20:36:31 +1000, Peter Howard
wrote: I got quite a nice $2 26" wheel from the tip salvage shop. Shimano HB M-564 hub, 36 x DT 2mm straight gauge spokes laced to Sun Rims Rhyno Lite. It even ran true to begin with though I believe it to be quite old as that Shimano hub is a 1990's one that's labelled Parallax as they were back then. The nice wide rim (22mm between bead seats) is not unduly worn in the brake tracks and exhibits no cracking around the spoke ferrules. However, the thing is radially spoked. I've never built a front wheel other than three cross, believing that if I'm going to the trouble and expense I might as well build it as "strong" as possible. I did some googling for radial spoking and confirmed my recollection that you can get away with it on a rim braked front wheel though some hub manufacturers positively forbid it. My high powered x-ray vision detects no cracking between hub spoke holes and I conclude that I could use the wheel as it is on a commuter/grocery-getter bike. The slightly weird Shimano hub has been cleaned, inspected, regreased and passed fit for further service. Can anyone who has built wheels tell me why anyone would want to radially spoke a 26" MTB wheel using quite decent components when it's just as easy to do two or three cross? PH Shorter, thus lighter, spokes, I suppose. And of course the fact that a radial spoked wheel looks so much faster then a 36 spoke cross 3 wheel :-) I recently broke several spokes in a wheel and decided to install another wheel until I could get the correct spokes and re-spoke the old wheel. The local bike shop had some wildly expensive wheels on display so I asked the sales girl "have you got any cheap ones"? "Sure", she says, "how's a hundred dollars a set sound?" "Gimmy", and I took them home in the box. When I unpacked them I found that they are a nice set of Shimano wheels with 20 radial in front and 24 cross 2 in the back. The spokes are. I guess you'd call them aerodynamic, slightly flattened and perhaps started as 2.5 mm wire. Anyway, they are a few grams lighter then the old wheels although I did use light weight cartridge bearing hubs and fairly light rims and spokes when I built the old ones. -- Cheers, John B. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Radial spokes?
On Sunday, March 1, 2015 at 4:36:37 AM UTC-6, Peter Howard wrote:
Can anyone who has built wheels tell me why anyone would want to radially spoke a 26" MTB wheel using quite decent components when it's just as easy to do two or three cross? PH Radial lacing is much simpler and easier than 2x and 3x. Once you figure out the correct length spoke to use, you just run the spoke straight up to the hole in the rim. No figuring out which ferrule to use. Unlike crossing where you have to decide is it the one 2 or 3 or 4 next on the rim. About the only thing you have to get right is make sure to use the ferrules on that side of the hub. As everyone knows ferrules are offset to one side of the rim or the other. No crossing the spokes over and/or under the first and second spoke and making sure you do it the same for every spoke. With radial lacing you just run the spoke straight up to the ferrule in the rim. Even someone who has never built a wheel in their life can do this the first time they build a wheel. My guess is you ended up with a wheel built by a first time wheel builder. Someone who did not know how to build wheels. So they used fairly low cost, but good quality, parts to build up a functional wheel to get by. Professional, highly experienced wheel builders do not use low cost components to build wheels. Its not worth their time monkeying with low cost parts. They also don't do weird, almost nonsensical things like radial lacing on low cost mountain bike wheels. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Radial spokes?
On 3/1/2015 5:36 AM, Peter Howard wrote:
Can anyone who has built wheels tell me why anyone would want to radially spoke a 26" MTB wheel using quite decent components when it's just as easy to do two or three cross? I think the theoretical benefits are a few grams less weight, since each spoke is shorter; and very slightly less air resistance, since uncrossed spokes present a smidgen less frontal area. I really doubt that either benefit is detectable by the rider. I think the real reason people do it is because they think it looks cool. The detriment is more chance of tensile failure of the hub flange. Whether that's theoretical or practical depends on the particular model of hub. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Radial spokes?
On 3/1/2015 6:49 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
... I took them home in the box. When I unpacked them I found that they are a nice set of Shimano wheels with 20 radial in front and 24 cross 2 in the back. The spokes are. I guess you'd call them aerodynamic, slightly flattened and perhaps started as 2.5 mm wire. When I was toying around with aerodynamic tricks on my bikes (nothing radical, mind you), I re-spoked a front wheel with oval spokes, replacing straight 14 gage. I made no other changes except the spokes. Before disassembly, with the tire and tube removed, I did some coast-down spins of the bare wheel, timing how long it took to stop. (I forget now how I got it up to a consistent starting speed. I may have used an electric drill with a rubber drive wheel, i.e. a rubber sanding drum without the sandpaper cylinder.) Anyway, I remember doing about ten trials with the straight gage spokes and repeating with the oval spokes. To my surprise, the wheel stopped a bit more quickly with the oval spokes. The oval spokes were very slightly lighter (maybe 20 grams?), so the wheel had less moment of inertia. That would lead to faster deceleration. But I really expected the reduction in aero drag to produce a bigger effect. I was disappointed. Needless to say, I could never _feel_ any aero benefit from the spokes, nor from any of the other minor aero tricks I tried. I usually did outcoast my friends, and some of those side-by-side coasting trials convinced me there was some aero value, especially with the old Tailwind panniers. But as usual, the benefits didn't really change the feel of the ride, my commuting time riding home from work, or my enjoyment of just riding the bike. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Radial spokes?
On 3/1/2015 10:08 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/1/2015 6:49 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: ... I took them home in the box. When I unpacked them I found that they are a nice set of Shimano wheels with 20 radial in front and 24 cross 2 in the back. The spokes are. I guess you'd call them aerodynamic, slightly flattened and perhaps started as 2.5 mm wire. When I was toying around with aerodynamic tricks on my bikes (nothing radical, mind you), I re-spoked a front wheel with oval spokes, replacing straight 14 gage. I made no other changes except the spokes. Before disassembly, with the tire and tube removed, I did some coast-down spins of the bare wheel, timing how long it took to stop. (I forget now how I got it up to a consistent starting speed. I may have used an electric drill with a rubber drive wheel, i.e. a rubber sanding drum without the sandpaper cylinder.) Anyway, I remember doing about ten trials with the straight gage spokes and repeating with the oval spokes. To my surprise, the wheel stopped a bit more quickly with the oval spokes. The oval spokes were very slightly lighter (maybe 20 grams?), so the wheel had less moment of inertia. That would lead to faster deceleration. But I really expected the reduction in aero drag to produce a bigger effect. I was disappointed. Needless to say, I could never _feel_ any aero benefit from the spokes, nor from any of the other minor aero tricks I tried. I usually did outcoast my friends, and some of those side-by-side coasting trials convinced me there was some aero value, especially with the old Tailwind panniers. But as usual, the benefits didn't really change the feel of the ride, my commuting time riding home from work, or my enjoyment of just riding the bike. Ten tests of each is significant diligence for a home project but may not expose small differences at actual race speeds. Here's a paper on the subject http://www.altairhyperworks.com/html...431_MNGodo.pdf And I think the primary answer to 'why radial spoke a $40 front wheel?' is probably "looks cool, sells better'. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Radial spokes?
|
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Radial spokes?
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 20:36:31 +1000, Peter Howard
wrote: Can anyone who has built wheels tell me why anyone would want to radially spoke a 26" MTB wheel using quite decent components when it's just as easy to do two or three cross? Somewhat after the days of high flange hubs, I had accumulated a fair collection of spokes that were only suitable for high flange hubs with 3 cross lacing. One day, I noticed that these spokes were fairly close to the length required to build a wheel with a low flange hub if I used radial lacing[1]. I had never ridden on a radial spoke wheel and thought it worth trying. So, I built a front wheel, rode about 3 miles, and decided that radial spokes were a really bad idea on the local rotten roads[2]. About a year later, I took it apart, bought the correct length spokes, built the wheel correctly, and rode happily for about 2 years[3]. [1] This was on a 27" or 700c wheel, not a 26" mountain bike wheel. [2] There was another problem. The spokes weren't quite long enough yielding only 2 or 3 threads on the spoke nipples. I didn't strip out any threads, but probably might have given a few bumps and jumps. [3] I had switched wheels and hung these wheels up in an unheated room for storage. I apparently applied too much spoke tension. The contraction of the stainless spokes from the cold temperatures broke the spoke holes out of the (Specialized) hubs. My wild guess(tm) is that a sprung front fork will take up most of the shock of landing a mountain bike. 3 cross lacing isn't going to add much cushioning to the ride when the springs and shock absorbers are doing most of the work. Therefore, it is probably safe to use radial spokes on a mountain bike with a sprung suspension. The idea is similar to that of a folding bicycle with small diameter wheels. It's difficult to tell from the small photos found by Google Images, but some of the small wheel folders use radial spokes, either because they have a springy frame, fork, or have an added shock absorber. https://www.google.com/search?q=small+bicycle+wheels&tbm=isch Once deemed safe and justifiable, such wheels add to the "product differentiations" aspect of selling bicycles, which appeals to manufacturers that want to sell something different, and buyers that want to look "cool". -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Radial spokes?
AE6KS -
the wheel is unsprung rolling impact weight...the frame/rider is termed sprung weight. I had a naybor with a DIY electric bike who radialed the front...was big deal with max width custom equipment at rear then the rad front.... shooka muh head n opinioned this was a zero then asked why not lace 3X but he didnah know how ???!! brong...short distance taco...I would imagine there's an online analysis program comparing the 2. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Radial spokes?
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 10:35:17 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 3/1/2015 5:36 AM, Peter Howard wrote: Can anyone who has built wheels tell me why anyone would want to radially spoke a 26" MTB wheel using quite decent components when it's just as easy to do two or three cross? I think the theoretical benefits are a few grams less weight, since each spoke is shorter; and very slightly less air resistance, since uncrossed spokes present a smidgen less frontal area. I really doubt that either benefit is detectable by the rider. I think the real reason people do it is because they think it looks cool. The detriment is more chance of tensile failure of the hub flange. Whether that's theoretical or practical depends on the particular model of hub. My God! You are flying in the face of all those millions and millions and millions of bicycle riders who demand lighter (and thus faster) bicycles. What will be next? A condemnation of the protective foam hat? Such heresy WILL be punished! (the black helicopters will arrive tomorrow.... and if not, certainly the next day, or perhaps the day after :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Funny spokes adn radial lacing and missing teeth and tying & soldering and drillium | [email protected] | Techniques | 12 | July 10th 10 11:30 PM |
Wheel Building; Oval Spokes (AE15); Twist; Radial Truing | Ron Ruff | Techniques | 8 | February 16th 06 08:43 AM |
Radial or cross spokes for front wheels, etc ? | rs | Techniques | 36 | December 3rd 05 08:21 AM |
Radial 360 Coker airfoil rim upgrade. re-use the spokes? | Chrashing | Unicycling | 4 | November 12th 05 02:28 AM |
Radial Spokes on Rear Wheel? | JH | Techniques | 73 | May 13th 05 06:42 AM |