removing rust from bikes and guns

On 6/6/2016 5:39 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Are there any tricks to this?

I have the usual stuff: sandpaper, emery cloth,
and brushes (nylon, brass, and steel), in some
creative shapes including the bottle brush,
a Y-shaped thing etc.

I found it is beneficial to use the vise for
the wheels, especially in combination with the
emery cloth as it can enclose the hub shell.

Rotating the wheel might save some time.

Today I spent almost the entire day removing
dust from a Favorit bike from Czechoslovakia.
It came with Torpedo rear rim and wire tho (and
not the "original" copies they did). Perhaps it
was put there at a later stage.

Czechoslovakia was dissolved in 1992/1993 so
I suppose it is at least 23 years, 5 months,
and 6 days old, unless of course it took them
some time to reconfigure their machines to
show "Czech Republic", right?

Anyway the age of the bike should not be blamed
for the ridiculous amount of rust it had.
But now it is all shiny!

Also, as a side not, I'm reading a book on the
French foreign legion, namely (in Swedish)

@book{soldaten-som-inte-kunde-dö,
author = {Knut Häll},
ISBN = {91-36-02636-0},
publisher = {LT},
title = {Soldaten som inte kunde dö: svensk äventyrare i Främlingslegionen},
year = 1987
}

and the author tells a story which begins with
them removing dust from their weapons ~"tho it
was forbidden to use sandpaper or emery cloth,
we did it anyway".

Why do you think that is?

Is it to force people not to handle the weapon
so rust will not appear in the first place?

Or are there disadvantages to sandpaper/cloth -
perhaps fragments get into the machinery and
spoil the gun?

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 48 Blogomatic articles -


You can do whatever you like with your own equipment but I
wouldn't use emery on any firearm I own. The usual technique
is rust/blue remover (mostly oxalic acid IIRC) followed by
bluing and then oil on a soft cloth:

https://www.birchwoodcasey.com/Refin...-Blue-Kit.aspx

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Current project is derusting

Here’s the current order for the current project, with a left over supply on the shelf.

5 4875A12
Metal Arbor Hole to Shank Adapter, for 1/2" Hole 1
Each 1 0 3.00
Each 3.00
6 4453A11
Heavy Deburring Brush for Flat Surfaces, Long Lasting, 2-3/4" Diameter, Steel 1
Each 1 0 20.70
Each 20.70
7 7077A22
1/4" Shank-Mount Light Cleaning Brush, for Steel, 3" Brush Diameter, 0.012" Bristle Diameter 1
Each 1 0 10.56
Each 10.56
8 4768A46
Heavy Cleaning and Deburring Brush for Steel, 4" Diameter, 1/4" Thick, 3/8"-24 Threaded Arbor Hole 1
Each 1 0 18.77
Each 18.77
9 98957A141
ASTM A193 Grade B7 Steel Threaded Rod, 3/8"-24 Thread, 2-1/2 ft Long, Fully Threaded 1
Each 1 0 7.73
Each 7.73
10 91131A060
Black-Oxide Steel Alignment Washer, Male & Female Set, 3/8" Screw Size, 0.386" Male ID 1
Each 1 0 3.82
Each 3.82
11 4873A23
Plastic Arbor Reducer, Reduces 5/8"-1/2", Packs of 12 1
Pack 1 0 3.41
Per Pack 3.41
12 91131A070
Black-Oxide Steel Alignment Washer, Male & Female Set, 1/2" Screw Size, 0.531" Male ID 1
Each 1 0 2.54
Each 2.54

………………………………………
The works. Leave it for you to figure out what goes where.

Bike frames are generally a loser in costs vs results

If the frame is rusty inside…why bother ? No, Merx did not ride it in the Baloge de Pelouse Vente

Caws…if you found the Stumpjumper of your dreams at $35 needing derusting then wait a day or 2 for a Stumpjumper at $30 in showroom condition..

Sheldon’s piece is excellent.

However, washing down with a slippery paste of Tide, wire brushing with Tide, then serious wire brushing followed with 1-2 phosphoric treatments then thinned rustproofing primer or in a HOT DRY climate thinned linseed followed after drying with Rustoleum red primer…very sticky.

Will last your lifetime.

I am the last standing 544 Volvo owner in North America. 10 years in salt country. Bruno the Volvo has was dismantled n scrubbed down repainted 3 times over 50 years. Good metals in old Volvos.

The legionnaires are cawmenting on aridity

butbutbut, here a stainless Gerber river knife pitted from....being in the river...soaking in vinegar till pits turned black then rubbing out with balled aluminum foil got it back in shape.

ima gonna lookit that electrolysis rig. should be good for tubing ID ....with the video probe....

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 09:53:43 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 18:59:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Bicycle plated with brass, copper, or zinc. I like brass:
http://www.vanheeschdesign.com
Just tear apart the bicycle, have the frame chemically stripped, send
it off to a plating shop, reassemble, and you're now fashionable.

Plating can cause problems though. Especially in threads and other
close fitting places. :-)

You can't see the plating in those places, so the judicious
application of masking tape and wax plugs should help. No need to
plate the insides of the various tubes. I once helped a friend chrome
plate his bicycle frame to 0.01 mils. It took us days to mask off all
the obscure places on the frame. When done, the only thing that
didn't fit was the seat post bolt.

However, the brass bicycle in the photos looks like it had been
chemically stripped and etched to leave room for the brass. It was
then electroplated with brass. That gets brass in all the friction
joints, like on the chain, axles, gear teeth, etc. That's not going
to last and will quickly rub/grind off the brass plating. Basically,
it's not rideable and is more of a show piece. Still, it looks
impressive.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 09:40:24 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 17:54:33 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 00:39:21 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Are there any tricks to this?

There are tricks to doing everything.

For bicycle rust, there are a variety of mechanical and chemical rust
removers. The abrasive variety work best on smooth surfaces. The
chemical variety will get into the cracks and crevases. What you use
to remove the rust is not important. What you use to prevent the rust
from coming back is very important. There are various undercoatings,
primers, phosphate based "rust reformers" and such that will provide
the necessary protection. Add paint and you're done.

Nobody paints guns, so you'll need some other kind of protection. Gun
bluing does little in the way of rust protection. Ask your question
in the gun nut forums for a better answer.

The Springfield muskets, both rifles and un-rifled had bright finishes
certainly from 1795 until the 1863 model. No anti-rust at all.

Judging by some random googling and looking at photos, the action
appears to be nickel plated. No clue on the barrels.
https://www.google.com/search?q=springfield+musket&tbm=isch

But he was asking about removing rust and mentioned the rifles as an
argument to using sandpaper to remove rust :-)

Fine sandpaper only removes rust from smooth surfaces but doesn't get
into cracks and crevasses. Coarse sandpaper makes cracks and
crevasses.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

AMuzi writes:

You can do whatever you like with your own
equipment but I wouldn't use emery on any
firearm I own.

And what would you do on the bikes you own?

Rim including spokes and hub, handlebar, frame
and nuts, fenders, etc.?

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 48 Blogomatic articles -

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 00:39:21 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Are there any tricks to this?

There are tricks to doing everything.

For bicycle rust, there are a variety of mechanical and chemical rust
removers. The abrasive variety work best on smooth surfaces. The
chemical variety will get into the cracks and crevases.

There are various chemical based rust converters containing phosphoric acid.

According to the manufacturer's blurb; the acid converts the rust into a
layer of phosphates that seal against further corrosion.

Taking off the loose flaky rust with a hand wire brush should be obvious.

Car accessory stores usually carry rust converter.

For really serious rust - you can get a cup wire brush that fits the spindle
on an angle grinder. Safety glasses are an absolute must as fragments of
steel wire fling off! It can take off a fair bit of metal - so only use for
severe rust.

Jeff Liebermann writes:

If you can't win against rust

But I think you can most often. First the rust
is removed. Then you simply use the thing that
was previously rusty. My impression is that
things that are used do not rust. For example
I have some 20-30 (?) pliers and those I use
never rust. But those I don't - once, I flushed
one with 5-56/WD-40 after removing the rust
I saw. Then I opened and closed it over and
over. And the "epicenter" just never stopped
pouring out this yucky substance! It just
wouldn't stop so ultimately I became almost
hypnotized by opening and closing it and see
the dirt liquid endlessly coming out...

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 48 Blogomatic articles -

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 13:53:35 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

John B. writes:

But he was asking about removing rust and
mentioned the rifles as an argument to using
sandpaper to remove rust :-)

They weren't allowed to use it but did
it anyway.

Why they did it was because it worked.

But why it wasn't allowed the book doesn't say.
Perhaps because it it were, the troops would
misuse their rifles because they could always
get them shiny again.

Or perhaps the papering spoiled the guns
(depending on to what degree it was applied and
on what parts).

I would assume that it was at least partially because if the gun were
blued or parkerized it would remove a surface that at least to some
extent was "passivated" and less likely to rust.

An additional reason might be that, from past experience, the military
has learned that unless the action is defined in great detail someone
will get it wrong, thus the excruciating details of what to do and the
assumption that if it isn't the book you can't do it.

If we learned the reason, it would be
interesting to see if it is applicable to bikes
as well.

Well :-) it is their gun but your bike :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 17:53:46 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

AMuzi writes:

You can do whatever you like with your own
equipment but I wouldn't use emery on any
firearm I own.

And what would you do on the bikes you own?

Rim including spokes and hub, handlebar, frame
and nuts, fenders, etc.?

Generally speaking, if a surface is rusted it means that it is made
from iron or steel, and if it is only partially, or only in spots,
rusted it probably means that it is plated with some non-rusting
material. If you sandpaper the rust off you will also be removing some
or all of the rust proofing material which will increase the possible
area that can rust.

The usually prescribed practice is to use fine steel wool to remove
the rust which doesn't remove any rust poof coating that might be
there.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 08:35:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 09:53:43 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 18:59:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Bicycle plated with brass, copper, or zinc. I like brass:
http://www.vanheeschdesign.com
Just tear apart the bicycle, have the frame chemically stripped, send
it off to a plating shop, reassemble, and you're now fashionable.

Plating can cause problems though. Especially in threads and other
close fitting places. :-)

You can't see the plating in those places, so the judicious
application of masking tape and wax plugs should help. No need to
plate the insides of the various tubes. I once helped a friend chrome
plate his bicycle frame to 0.01 mils. It took us days to mask off all
the obscure places on the frame. When done, the only thing that
didn't fit was the seat post bolt.

However, the brass bicycle in the photos looks like it had been
chemically stripped and etched to leave room for the brass. It was
then electroplated with brass. That gets brass in all the friction
joints, like on the chain, axles, gear teeth, etc. That's not going
to last and will quickly rub/grind off the brass plating. Basically,
it's not rideable and is more of a show piece. Still, it looks
impressive.

My experience, at least with chrome plating, has been that plating
shops will not accept outside prepared items unless there is a written
statement that they are not responsible for any problems caused by the
owner preparing his own parts for plating... and they are usually
right :-)

Secondly, plating will enlarge parts so that threaded holes will
usually require re-tapping.

And thirdly, that plating is usually not as effective as you thought
it was going to be :-)
--
cheers,

John B.