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#1
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drill/tap in frames
Are there any secrets to drilling holes in
steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? And you can use chainsaw oil, right? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#2
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drill/tap in frames
On 7/7/2018 10:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Are there any secrets to drilling holes in steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? And you can use chainsaw oil, right? Exactly what are you planning to attach, and where? If you're drilling and tapping in (say) rear dropouts, normal practices should be fine. But if you're planning on drilling and tapping frame tubes, you probably wont' have sufficient wall thickness in the tubes. It's usually considered proper to give tapped holes a thread depth at least 1.5 times the screw diameter. So for a 5mm screw, you'd want 7.5mm of thickness. Sometimes a little less can be OK. But your frame tube walls are probably less than 1mm thickness. That's not enough. So you probably want to install "Rivnuts" instead. https://www.boellhoff.com/us-en/prod...uts-rivnut.php This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop. Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for anyone with normal mechanical skills. Here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_uu_ba6qAM but it's also easy to install these without special tools. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#3
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drill/tap in frames
Frank Krygowski wrote:
If you're drilling and tapping in (say) rear dropouts, normal practices should be fine. But if you're planning on drilling and tapping frame tubes, you probably wont' have sufficient wall thickness in the tubes. It's usually considered proper to give tapped holes a thread depth at least 1.5 times the screw diameter. So for a 5mm screw, you'd want 7.5mm of thickness. Sometimes a little less can be OK. But your frame tube walls are probably less than 1mm thickness. That's not enough. The stays that hold the chainguard, both from the front and under, are very thin, probably around 1mm. Still it is enough for a couple of Torx flat-headed M5 screws to hold it (1 from under, 2 front, the one at the rear is usually bolted tho with a nut on the other side). The down stay is also fastened in the same way to the frame. (I don't know how the front one is attached because you typically don't remove it. But I'll check it out.) With Loctite I suppose it'd be even more strength to it? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#4
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drill/tap in frames
On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop. Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for anyone with normal mechanical skills. That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages: http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/ Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts (steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue (plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter. Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber). -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#5
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drill/tap in frames
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:33:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop. Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for anyone with normal mechanical skills. That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages: http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/ Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts (steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue (plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter. Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber). One can only suppose that those "dumb asses: that manufacture rivnuts deliberately make their product in a number of materials :-) And, it might be added that not knowing what you are doing is not limited to bicycle maintenence :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#6
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drill/tap in frames
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:41:08 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote: On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:33:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop. Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for anyone with normal mechanical skills. That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages: http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/ Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts (steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue (plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter. Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber). One can only suppose that those "dumb asses: that manufacture rivnuts deliberately make their product in a number of materials :-) I'm not sure about the deliberate part, but yes, one can buy them in steel or aluminum. I couldn't find any plastic or carbon fiber rivnuts. And, it might be added that not knowing what you are doing is not limited to bicycle maintenence :-) True. If those expounding on bicycle technology by various electronic means really knew what they were doing, they would be riding instead of pounding on the keyboard. If you really want to know how things work, find someone that is actually doing the work and interrogate them for the information you need and don't bother reading books, manufacturers literature, magazines, forums, and newsgroups. The only downside is that those who really know, tend to be inarticulate and have difficulties explaining complex concepts, like which way to tighten a right handed bolt. However, persistence, intimidation, and perhaps bribery will eventually produce the required answer from a real expert. As I mentioned, I have successfully trashed most everything I've tried to do with Rivnuts on bicycles, and therefore have no opinion on the matter. However, it might be interesting to try a simple test. I could probably finance the test by taking bets on the outcome. Take two identical lengths of steel bicycle tubing. Install a Rivnut in only one tube at midpoint. Clamp one end in a pipe vise. Pull on the other end with a Come-Along perpendicular to the tubing. Measure the force with a load cell. Draw a graph to show when the tubing went plastic and eventually buckled. Compare results between the tubing with and without the Rivnut. That should settle the debate whether Rivnuts are detrimental to frame and stay strength. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#7
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drill/tap in frames
On 7/11/2018 11:42 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:41:08 -0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:33:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop. Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for anyone with normal mechanical skills. That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages: http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/ Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts (steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue (plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter. Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber). One can only suppose that those "dumb asses: that manufacture rivnuts deliberately make their product in a number of materials :-) I'm not sure about the deliberate part, but yes, one can buy them in steel or aluminum. I couldn't find any plastic or carbon fiber rivnuts. And, it might be added that not knowing what you are doing is not limited to bicycle maintenence :-) True. If those expounding on bicycle technology by various electronic means really knew what they were doing, they would be riding instead of pounding on the keyboard. If you really want to know how things work, find someone that is actually doing the work and interrogate them for the information you need and don't bother reading books, manufacturers literature, magazines, forums, and newsgroups. The only downside is that those who really know, tend to be inarticulate and have difficulties explaining complex concepts, like which way to tighten a right handed bolt. However, persistence, intimidation, and perhaps bribery will eventually produce the required answer from a real expert. As I mentioned, I have successfully trashed most everything I've tried to do with Rivnuts on bicycles, and therefore have no opinion on the matter. However, it might be interesting to try a simple test. I could probably finance the test by taking bets on the outcome. Take two identical lengths of steel bicycle tubing. Install a Rivnut in only one tube at midpoint. Clamp one end in a pipe vise. Pull on the other end with a Come-Along perpendicular to the tubing. Measure the force with a load cell. Draw a graph to show when the tubing went plastic and eventually buckled. Compare results between the tubing with and without the Rivnut. That should settle the debate whether Rivnuts are detrimental to frame and stay strength. I think the question isn't so much 'has the tube's ultimate strength been diminished?' but rather 'is it yet strong enough for expected application?'. In theory and in absolute yes the tube is less strong. In practice, from Santana ExoGrid tandems to Bianchi thinwall tempered aluminum models, to their carbon bikes, rivnuts are not a failure point. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#8
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drill/tap in frames
On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:42:08 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:41:08 -0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:33:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop. Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for anyone with normal mechanical skills. That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages: http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/ Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts (steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue (plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter. Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber). One can only suppose that those "dumb asses: that manufacture rivnuts deliberately make their product in a number of materials :-) I'm not sure about the deliberate part, but yes, one can buy them in steel or aluminum. I couldn't find any plastic or carbon fiber rivnuts. And, it might be added that not knowing what you are doing is not limited to bicycle maintenence :-) True. If those expounding on bicycle technology by various electronic means really knew what they were doing, they would be riding instead of pounding on the keyboard. If you really want to know how things work, find someone that is actually doing the work and interrogate them for the information you need and don't bother reading books, manufacturers literature, magazines, forums, and newsgroups. The only downside is that those who really know, tend to be inarticulate and have difficulties explaining complex concepts, like which way to tighten a right handed bolt. However, persistence, intimidation, and perhaps bribery will eventually produce the required answer from a real expert. As I mentioned, I have successfully trashed most everything I've tried to do with Rivnuts on bicycles, and therefore have no opinion on the matter. However, it might be interesting to try a simple test. I could probably finance the test by taking bets on the outcome. Take two identical lengths of steel bicycle tubing. Install a Rivnut in only one tube at midpoint. Clamp one end in a pipe vise. Pull on the other end with a Come-Along perpendicular to the tubing. Measure the force with a load cell. Draw a graph to show when the tubing went plastic and eventually buckled. Compare results between the tubing with and without the Rivnut. That should settle the debate whether Rivnuts are detrimental to frame and stay strength. (Big Smile) I know a bike builder who accidentally did just that, with out the rivnut being installed - bending the curve into the front fork blades with a 5 foot bar :-) But as an aside, anything will break given sufficient force applied which doesn't prove much of anything. -- Cheers, John B. |
#9
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drill/tap in frames
On 7/7/2018 9:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Are there any secrets to drilling holes in steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? And you can use chainsaw oil, right? Subtract pitch from major diameter, e.g., tap drill for an m5x0.8 is 4.2mm and use lard-sulphur cutting oil for drilling and tapping in steel. Yes use chainsaw oil on your chainsaw. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#10
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drill/tap in frames
AMuzi wrote:
Subtract pitch from major diameter, e.g., tap drill for an m5x0.8 is 4.2mm Well, then you still have to look up the pitch, which is in the same table as the drill diameter, all of which is faster than the thread gauge... Yes use chainsaw oil on your chainsaw. Won't that trigger a dangerous chain reaction? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
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