A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Recumbent Biking
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Research on Tire Inflation Problems and Loss of Air



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old June 9th 09, 02:28 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Erness Wild
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 73
Default Research on Tire Inflation Problems and Loss of Air

It's the oxygen in the air used to inflate bicycle tires that is a big
problem, it causes tires to loose air pressure. In construction
companies they found that the high pressure tires could burst because
the oxygen in the air deteriorate the rubber by seeping through. When
they switched to nitrogen only for the tires, they never had a tire
burst and the tires held pressure longer.
Remove the oxygen from air and you have nitrogen left.
Some automobile tire retailers offer nitrogen fill ups.

I wonder if using nitrogen gas for bicycle tires would make a
difference too.
Ads
  #2  
Old June 12th 09, 11:41 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Erness Wild
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 73
Default Research on Tire Inflation Problems and Loss of Air

Mervyn Carter wrote:
In article of Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Jon Bendtsen writes
i dont think it makes any noticeable difference.

Am I mistaken, or do I remember reading some time back of a racing team
that inflated their tyres with helium, just to save a couple of grammes
of weight for a tiny improvement in acceleration ?


The issue for the mining companies was that elimination of oxygen from
the air in large tires stopped those high pressure tires from
exploding. The reason was that oxygen was damaging the tires ability
to withstand pressure. In other words weakening the tire sidewalls.
In bicycle tires this would equate to weaking the ability of the tube
and tire to hold air pressure. Since bicycle tires use very small
amounts of air under pressure, loosing a small amount of air is a big
thing.
I guess, I'm going to have to find a way to test this myself and see.
Don't know how yet, but "necessity is the mother of invention". Most
of my bicycles need air between one and two weeks to keep the pressure
up. I might have to put new tubes and tires on first to test this.
Not going to happen this month.

An article I read said a racing car team was using straight nitrogen
in their tires, for two reasons. Nitrogen is more predictable hot and
cold. Nitrogen doesn't have water vapour in it as it comes from a tank.
  #3  
Old June 13th 09, 07:49 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jon Bendtsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 168
Default Research on Tire Inflation Problems and Loss of Air

Erness Wild wrote:
Mervyn Carter wrote:
In article of Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Jon Bendtsen writes
i dont think it makes any noticeable difference.

Am I mistaken, or do I remember reading some time back of a racing
team that inflated their tyres with helium, just to save a couple of
grammes of weight for a tiny improvement in acceleration ?


The issue for the mining companies was that elimination of oxygen from
the air in large tires stopped those high pressure tires from
exploding. The reason was that oxygen was damaging the tires ability to
withstand pressure. In other words weakening the tire sidewalls.


but, there is oxygen in the air on the outside of the wheel? Surely
that too would damage the sidewalls, better replace all the outside
air with pure nitrogen ;-)


I guess, I'm going to have to find a way to test this myself and see.
Don't know how yet, but "necessity is the mother of invention". Most of
my bicycles need air between one and two weeks to keep the pressure up.
I might have to put new tubes and tires on first to test this.
Not going to happen this month.


if so, please make a real scientific study with LOTS of bicycles
over a longer period. Remember to make it a blind study so the
driver doesnt know what is inside the wheel.


An article I read said a racing car team was using straight nitrogen in
their tires, for two reasons. Nitrogen is more predictable hot and cold.
Nitrogen doesn't have water vapour in it as it comes from a tank.


I dont think it will make much difference. Air is made up of
78.1 % Nitrogen
20.9 % Oxygen
0.9 % Aragon


And more predictable? Come on the properties of Nitrogen and Oxygen
are quite similar.

Melting point:
-195.79 C for Nitrogen
-182.95 C for Oxygen
which is close compared to the temperature we run the tires in.

And the heat exchanging
25.83 m W·m–1K–1 for Nitrogen
26.58 m W·m–1K–1 for Oxygen
That is very close.


I do not believe that using air (80% nitrogen) or 100% nitrogen is
going to make any difference at all.
  #4  
Old June 13th 09, 05:17 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Erness Wild
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 73
Default Research on Tire Inflation Problems and Loss of Air

It's not just about air with oxygen around the tire, it's about air
with oxygen UNDER PRESURE, that is the issue. The article that
originally caught my attention was this one:
http://www.nitrogendirect.com/N2Info.htm
(yawn)

Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Erness Wild wrote:
Mervyn Carter wrote:
In article of Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Jon Bendtsen writes
i dont think it makes any noticeable difference.

Am I mistaken, or do I remember reading some time back of a racing
team that inflated their tyres with helium, just to save a couple of
grammes of weight for a tiny improvement in acceleration ?

The issue for the mining companies was that elimination of oxygen from
the air in large tires stopped those high pressure tires from
exploding. The reason was that oxygen was damaging the tires ability to
withstand pressure. In other words weakening the tire sidewalls.


but, there is oxygen in the air on the outside of the wheel? Surely
that too would damage the sidewalls, better replace all the outside
air with pure nitrogen ;-)


I guess, I'm going to have to find a way to test this myself and see.
Don't know how yet, but "necessity is the mother of invention". Most of
my bicycles need air between one and two weeks to keep the pressure up.
I might have to put new tubes and tires on first to test this.
Not going to happen this month.


if so, please make a real scientific study with LOTS of bicycles
over a longer period. Remember to make it a blind study so the
driver doesnt know what is inside the wheel.


An article I read said a racing car team was using straight nitrogen in
their tires, for two reasons. Nitrogen is more predictable hot and cold.
Nitrogen doesn't have water vapour in it as it comes from a tank.


I dont think it will make much difference. Air is made up of
78.1 % Nitrogen
20.9 % Oxygen
0.9 % Aragon


And more predictable? Come on the properties of Nitrogen and Oxygen
are quite similar.

Melting point:
-195.79 C for Nitrogen
-182.95 C for Oxygen
which is close compared to the temperature we run the tires in.

And the heat exchanging
25.83 m W·m–1K–1 for Nitrogen
26.58 m W·m–1K–1 for Oxygen
That is very close.


I do not believe that using air (80% nitrogen) or 100% nitrogen is
going to make any difference at all.

  #5  
Old June 13th 09, 05:25 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Opus[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 414
Default Research on Tire Inflation Problems and Loss of Air

On Jun 13, 6:49 am, Jon Bendtsen wrote:
snip
An article I read said a racing car team was using straight nitrogen in
their tires, for two reasons. Nitrogen is more predictable hot and cold..
Nitrogen doesn't have water vapour in it as it comes from a tank.


I dont think it will make much difference. Air is made up of
78.1 % Nitrogen
20.9 % Oxygen
0.9 % Aragon

And more predictable? Come on the properties of Nitrogen and Oxygen
are quite similar.

Melting point:
-195.79 C for Nitrogen
-182.95 C for Oxygen
which is close compared to the temperature we run the tires in.

And the heat exchanging
25.83 m W·m–1K–1 for Nitrogen
26.58 m W·m–1K–1 for Oxygen
That is very close.

I do not believe that using air (80% nitrogen) or 100% nitrogen is
going to make any difference at all.


I think it might make a difference in the longevity of the tube as O2
under high pressure is very reactive. Throw in a few 100+ degree F TX
summer days and I think the N2 tubes will last much longer than tubes
filled with air.

Also don't forget the water vapor in the air makes it just that much
more reactive. For motorsport teams it's the water vapor that causes
much of the problem and it's actually cheaper to get pure N2 than it
is to remove the water from air. Water vapor expands much more than
other components of air and is in the air at different amounts
depending on the weather conditions at the time the air was
compressed, making adjusting pressure in the tire to change handling
of the car a crap shoot. With N2 teams can adjust pressure by as
little as 1/4 PSI and get a predictable change in the handling of the
car.

  #6  
Old June 13th 09, 07:08 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jon Bendtsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 168
Default Research on Tire Inflation Problems and Loss of Air

Erness Wild wrote:
It's not just about air with oxygen around the tire, it's about air with
oxygen UNDER PRESURE, that is the issue. The article that originally
caught my attention was this one:
http://www.nitrogendirect.com/N2Info.htm


I wouldnt trust a source with such a name.

Further more, the air on the outside is also Under Pressure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtrEN-YKLBM
it is just about 1 atmosphere pressure.


JonB
  #7  
Old June 13th 09, 07:09 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jon Bendtsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 168
Default Research on Tire Inflation Problems and Loss of Air

Opus wrote:
On Jun 13, 6:49 am, Jon Bendtsen wrote:
snip
An article I read said a racing car team was using straight nitrogen in
their tires, for two reasons. Nitrogen is more predictable hot and cold.
Nitrogen doesn't have water vapour in it as it comes from a tank.

I dont think it will make much difference. Air is made up of
78.1 % Nitrogen
20.9 % Oxygen
0.9 % Aragon

And more predictable? Come on the properties of Nitrogen and Oxygen
are quite similar.

Melting point:
-195.79 C for Nitrogen
-182.95 C for Oxygen
which is close compared to the temperature we run the tires in.

And the heat exchanging
25.83 m W·m–1K–1 for Nitrogen
26.58 m W·m–1K–1 for Oxygen
That is very close.

I do not believe that using air (80% nitrogen) or 100% nitrogen is
going to make any difference at all.


I think it might make a difference in the longevity of the tube as O2
under high pressure is very reactive. Throw in a few 100+ degree F TX
summer days and I think the N2 tubes will last much longer than tubes
filled with air.


i would like to see a scientific study to document that.


Also don't forget the water vapor in the air makes it just that much
more reactive. For motorsport teams it's the water vapor that causes
much of the problem and it's actually cheaper to get pure N2 than it
is to remove the water from air. Water vapor expands much more than
other components of air and is in the air at different amounts
depending on the weather conditions at the time the air was
compressed, making adjusting pressure in the tire to change handling
of the car a crap shoot. With N2 teams can adjust pressure by as
little as 1/4 PSI and get a predictable change in the handling of the
car.


Well, maybe, but we are not talking cars in here, we are talking
bicycles.
  #8  
Old June 13th 09, 11:13 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Erness Wild
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 73
Default Research on Tire Inflation Problems and Loss of Air

Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Erness Wild wrote:
It's not just about air with oxygen around the tire, it's about air with
oxygen UNDER PRESURE, that is the issue. The article that originally
caught my attention was this one:
http://www.nitrogendirect.com/N2Info.htm


I wouldnt trust a source with such a name.

Further more, the air on the outside is also Under Pressure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtrEN-YKLBM
it is just about 1 atmosphere pressure.


JonB

ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, lol.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Get rid from hair loss problems, receive free offers from us. Linda J Techniques 0 May 24th 08 12:33 PM
CO2 Systems for tire inflation Cino1947 Techniques 48 October 21st 04 12:13 AM
Nitrogen for tire inflation Erik Freitag Techniques 70 October 18th 04 06:09 PM
Tire Inflation Question Tom Australia 4 August 19th 04 05:54 AM
Proper Tire Inflation Roger Zoul General 19 December 11th 03 01:42 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.