Steel no longer real?

On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:17:39 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/30/2015 11:54 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
"Jakob Krieger" considered Wed, 30 Dec 2015
02:22:48 +0100 the perfect time to write:

- John B. / Mon, 30 Nov 2015 12:53:51 +0100


How come nobody ever says steel is real anymore?

Because new aluminium welding machines made alloy the
material of choice.

But aluminum welding dates back to about 1944 for GTAW and even
earlier for oxy-acetylene welding.

True, but modern weldig machines make the process easy.

Aluminium has a weak fluid phase. Means: from 'too cold'
to 'evaporating' is a tiny step. Modern machines can dose the
welding current pulses much better than a human expert can do.

Expert human welding is at least as good - but training and retaining
experts is expensive, and machines can do it far cheaper, while having
only minimal human supervision. THAT is the reason it is now so
cheap.

So, light-weight alu frames can be made for cheap.

[originally, steel frames were not welded but soldered
using brass fitting ... remember those?]

Remember? I have one, and have only ever had one bike that wasn't
constructed that way!
Actually, silver soldering is a bit stronger than brass, although
clearly more expensive.


No one's more committed to hand metal joining than I, but
there are many applications for which a robot can be clearly
superior in quality and consistency (not to mention 24x7
consistency). That's not to simplify as 'robots are better',
only to note that with proper engineering they can be, and
in many cases are. Anyone who has done the same pass setup
repeatedly for 8 hours will probably agree.

I once worked with a bloke that had taken a job with one of the
Detroit car makers as a "welder". He said that, and this must have
been 30 or more years ago, the job consisted of overseeing a machine
that automatically welded the axle tubes into a differential housing
and consisted of pressing a button once the housing and tubes had been
locked into a fixture.

He said that he had, "lasted all the way to quitting time" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Friday, December 4, 2015 at 2:21:00 PM UTC-5, Doug Landau wrote:
Oy, you're new here huh? With Frank you'll get an agenda driven by a
toxic mix of lies, lack of knowledge, and the most bizarre analogies
that you could possibly imagine. Add in the accusation that you're
"worried" about this non-existent issue and you have been "Franked."

I should be so new! I was here when Frank showed up in the 90s, and I would agree were you to say the place hasn't been the same since.

I was here before "Dear" Carl Fogel... I was here before Pete "**** you all" Fagerlin - I was here before Gene "I'm not Jim Morrison" Daniels.

Heck, I was here when Jobst Brandt discovered spam.

oh ura fulla ****...I was here when Arthur Godfrey was here.


mine

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...&as_sdt=0%2C10

Heck, I was here when Jobst Brandt discovered spam.

oh ura fulla ****...I was here when Arthur Godfrey was here.
mine

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...&as_sdt=0%2C10

..........................

1951 tricycle ....is there a challenger ?

On 12/31/2015 3:01 PM, wrote:
Heck, I was here when Jobst Brandt discovered spam.

oh ura fulla ****...I was here when Arthur Godfrey was here.
mine

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...&as_sdt=0%2C10

.........................

1951 tricycle ....is there a challenger ?


Like this?

https://oldbike.wordpress.com/1930s-...-racing-trike/

One drawback to a racing trike: riders who pass you will
probably have read this italicized text:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/HWTRIKE.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

- John B. / Thu, 31 Dec 2015 01:30:14 +0100


How come nobody ever says steel is real anymore?

Because new aluminium welding machines made alloy the
material of choice.

But aluminum welding dates back to about 1944 for GTAW and even
earlier for oxy-acetylene welding.

True, but modern weldig machines make the process easy.

Aluminium has a weak fluid phase. Means: from 'too cold'
to 'evaporating' is a tiny step. Modern machines can dose the
welding current pulses much better than a human expert can do.

That isn't the problem with welding aluminum. The main problem is that
the stuff doesn't change color when it melts. It is sitting there
looking all gray and solid and all at once it falls on the floor :-)

Oops, you are right, I looked it up.
Al suddenly shifts from solid to fluid without optical warning.

So, light-weight alu frames can be made for cheap.

Cheap welding is just a matter of MIG welding as both gas and TIG
welding take roughly the same amount of time per inch of weld.
If the material is thick enough it can even be "stick welded", for
that matter.

The machines used for making bike-parts from Al alloy
are computer controlled MIG ones that work in two steps --
first drop some material to the welding point,
then do the real welding. The worker or robot arm only has
to 'point and shoot'. That's what I meant: with such equipment,
you don't need a skilled craftsman at the machine any more.


[originally, steel frames were not welded but soldered
using brass fitting ... remember those?]

Remember? I own two with silver soldered joints and one which I have
never taken the time to look.

I did own a bike built like this long ago,
and in fact didn't appreciate enough.
I was more interested in motorbikes and cars then ...
shame on me.



jk



--
no sig

On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 5:25:34 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/31/2015 3:01 PM, wrote:
Heck, I was here when Jobst Brandt discovered spam.

oh ura fulla ****...I was here when Arthur Godfrey was here.
mine

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...&as_sdt=0%2C10

.........................

1951 tricycle ....is there a challenger ?


Like this?

https://oldbike.wordpress.com/1930s-...-racing-trike/

One drawback to a racing trike: riders who pass you will
probably have read this italicized text:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/HWTRIKE.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

super.....gute neujahr...the diff works as adverted ?

ahh lookit this one !....but buckle the gun belts n we'll go off with the sidecar at Man.

- Phil W Lee / Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:54:12 +0100


Expert human welding is at least as good - but training and retaining
experts is expensive, and machines can do it far cheaper, while having
only minimal human supervision. THAT is the reason it is now so
cheap.

Of course. And it is the reason why (not all, but some)
cheap frames are perfect in geometry. And why work can be
done by children (welcome back to 1800).


[originally, steel frames were not welded but soldered
using brass fitting ... remember those?]

Remember? I have one, and have only ever had one bike that wasn't
constructed that way!
Actually, silver soldering is a bit stronger than brass, although
clearly more expensive.

These bikes did cost a little more than today,
compared to average income level.


What annoys me is that machine-built frames which are
cheap but not bad in principle have such crappy components
that they go to the bin in a few months.

Recently, I 'saved a DIY-market crap bike from the bin
by adjusting everything and changing a few minor parts
for a friend. He isn't a sporty mile-eater, and the bike
will serve him for quite some time.
I'll never understand this trash culture.


And recently, I 'shot' a bike-frame at flea market.
A 1998 Gary Fisher Ziggurat.
Welded aluminium, but perfectly done in any detail.
And not really bargain-priced when new.

Since that day I know that you really have to spend
money on a good frame. You need 15 $ in your pocket,
otherwise it won't work.

See above: Trash culture. I just fit surplus parts I had
lying around, and it is already a good bike. I am a bit too
tall for the frame size, so I won't spend a lot to really
rebirth it. But it won't go to the bin, and it will get
some fresh air time by time (for tours, I prefer the bigger
one with disk brakes and good hubs and rims).


More recently, I saved another one from the bin. A steel
(welded) cheap 28". I'll build this up until spring, so that
I'll have a city thing that looks too boring to be stolen.
Hubs and crank bearing are junk. Frame is like new, no rust.
Trash culture, once again.


And I love to go to museums and look how old tech-stuff
was made. Sorry, when I see a 1930 racer, I want to try
and ride it ... may be today's carbon things get some
1/100th seconds advance in competition, but I hate how
some (most?) people tend to under-estimate heritage.

Some time ago, I was at a place at east Adria (Jadran).
The neighbor guy took us with his motor boat (nut-shell),
and it hat a motor on-board made in 1910. Except of
cables and spark-plugs everything was original ...
I hope he will keep it in honour.
If not, I'll feed him to the sharks.


I love modern stuff, too. No problem.


jk


--
no sig

- John B. / Thu, 31 Dec 2015 02:39:36 +0100


Actually, silver soldering is a bit stronger than brass, although
clearly more expensive.

But I'm not sure that is a concern as the strength of a brazed joint
is so very largely dependent on the clearance in the joint necessary
to allow the brazing metal to penetrate the joint.

Silver soldering is stiffer and more durable.

Of course, acurracy of the pieces used is a much more
decisive point.


It might also be of interest to know that many silver brazing fillers
contain Cadmium which lowers the melting point and improves fluidity,
but which also produce cadmium oxide fumes when heated above 608
degrees (F), or 320 (C). Cadmium fumes are considered poisonous and
while they have been in use for many years should be treated with
respect.

Same with red lead or zinc chromate paint.

Perfect anti-rust, but poisonous.



jk


--
no sig

On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 9:24:11 PM UTC-5, Jakob Krieger wrote:
Snipped
And I love to go to museums and look how old tech-stuff
was made. Sorry, when I see a 1930 racer, I want to try
and ride it ... may be today's carbon things get some
1/100th seconds advance in competition, but I hate how
some (most?) people tend to under-estimate heritage.
Snipped
I love modern stuff, too. No problem.


jk


--

I've always loved the look and the function of the old Shimano Dura Ace Ax (& 600 AX) components. I like their easthetics and functionality. I even like those Dyna drive pedals. I find those to be the absolutely EASIEST pedals to get into, even easier than my old shool Lyotard ones that Franks likes so much. The AX design is nice and clean without any external cable housing on the derailler. The stem has hidden Allen head bolts to tighten the stem and the handlebar. The AX brakes have VERY POSITIVE stopping power and the AX brake levers are adjustable for reach.

I was luky this Christmas because my sister got me a nearly complete Dura Ace AX groupset. All that's needed to complete it are the front hub and handlebar.

Another advantage of the AX stuff and much of the friction shifters in other old school groupsets is that thy can shift neearly any derailler or number of cogs. More and more we're seeing modern stuff going the "PROPRIETARY"" route where everything must be of the same groupset let alone the same manufacturer.

Cheers

- AMuzi / Wed, 30 Dec 2015 20:17:39 +0100


No one's more committed to hand metal joining than I, but
there are many applications for which a robot can be clearly
superior in quality and consistency (not to mention 24x7
consistency). That's not to simplify as 'robots are better',
only to note that with proper engineering they can be, and
in many cases are. Anyone who has done the same pass setup
repeatedly for 8 hours will probably agree.

Agree.

Robots are better doing stupid work all day long
with high precision.


--
no sig