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Something I read in the News
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Farm labnourer
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:18:27 -0800, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The farm owner said he couldn't get "regular Americans" to do the work. They wouldn't put up with the job for more than one day. We get that bleat over here as well, but my 2c is that the farmer/ industry are responsible for their own predicament. It is not so much just the "job" but the other stuff that goes with it nowadays. Over here, in the past, during various work/study breaks I'd check the harvest timetable, load up the bicycle with camping gear and sally forth for the experience and extra income. You'd arrive in town, check the workers wanted board, choose what you wanted to do and head off to talk to the farm about what was required and where you could camp. That stage has now disappeared behind online "entities" where you have to register, sign away all your rights and liberties and be noting more that an on-site casual who gets work if they need you. First the experienced farmers moved on and "buinesses with managers became involved" and you'd loose valuable time waiting for the clowns to get organised with basic stuff like not enough buckets, not enough ladders, not enough working tools, not enough bins, nothing to record bins, no idea of how many bins needed to be picked, no idea of which fruit needed to be picked and on and on. Then the week would roll round and there would be chucks taken out that you weren't told about, union, "insurances", TAX (WTF, at the maxium rate 35%) and nil/dodgy paperwork. At least with paperwork,you would get any excess back within 15 months. Later you'd be lucky to survive a week where there wasn't a sudden inrush of extra labourers because num-nuts could not do basic maths on how many workers they needed initially to get the job done in time, so all your mutual worker co-operation went up the spout as these short term bozos were all me-me-me. Some farmers managed to make all their workers sick by telling everyone to camp around the farm dam and use the "toilet" facilities just up the slope. Armies throughout history have learn that is what yu don't do. So gummint stepped in with regulations about proper approved accommodation being required, aka cheap jerry built that offered rat, flea and other vermin accommodation for most of the year. So you ended up having to paying money to a camping ground operator to pictch your tent and then travel to and from the farm each day. At that stage, for anyone with any home/family, any financial incentive to actually do this work evaporated. On top of that farmers put the job of selling their produce to "marketers" who all basically courted the big two chain supermartkets by offering produce at lower and lower prices and really cutting the fat out of their operations. One of the activities SWMBO'd & I did was organising the food for clubs were were involved with from 10-40 for a week or up to 400 peole for a weekend. One of the wrinkles to keep costs down was going to the state farmers wholesale market and buying in bulk. When you could get the basic vegetable bulk for $20 for 24hours for 400 people you know that there can not be any fat for the farmers. As far as I'm concerned, farmers have backed themselves into the corner they are now in with their labour deficit. Also seen similar problems in industry, especially when they start "outsouring" the labour providers. |
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Something I read in the News
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:18:27 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote: And it's not even necessarily big firms. When you need your grass cut and you check the bulletin board at the grocery store, you call around for the best price. You don't say "Oh, and let me see your citizenship papers." Hell, it recently came out that Trump has had (and probably still has) illegal immigrants working for him. - Frank Krygowski It's much worse than that. My father used to own a lingerie manufactory in Smog Angeles. He would hire as best he could from the constantly churning labor pool moving back and forth between the aerospace and the garment district. Of course, illegal aliens were mixed in with the legal immigrants. It was actually fairly easy to tell. At the time (about 50 years ago) he was faced with the problem of how to deal with having as many as 10 individual workers using the same identical social security number. So, he walked across the street, where the offices of the Calif Unemployment Dept was located and asked for help. He was told to do nothing, and to never ask a worker to prove that they were legally in the USA. Huh? Apparently, the privacy laws are more important than dealing with illegal aliens. I verified this advice by independently asking the same questions. We could not legally ask a worker to prove that they were in the USA legally. When my father had a stroke and I temporarily took over the business in 1986, nothing had changed. This worked out nicely for employers, where this policy allows them the claim that they had no way to know that they were hiring an illegal alien (i.e. plausible denial). Fortunately, this changed recently under Trump where it is now possible to verify green cards and immigration status: https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/new-e-verifygov-website-user-friendly-source-verify-employment-eligibility https://www.e-verify.gov https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central If Prez Trump still has illegal aliens on his payroll, he probably didn't bother to check their status since E-Verify checks are voluntary to employers. https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/about-form-i-9/e-verify-and-form-i-9 -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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Something I read in the News
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 21:56:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 12/18/2018 6:07 PM, AMuzi wrote: To say a wall is insufficient or ineffective or too expensive is an argument, and I would engage that. To say there is no problem is ridiculous. I personally don't know anyone who thinks there is no problem. But sadly, I do know a few who still insist that Trump is absolutely right to demand an entire border, solid concrete, actual wall. It's simplistic nonsense, but that is what the guy promised, after all. Oh, and it's going to be beautiful, too. He said so! Maybe we can get a couple thousand miles of murals? Portsmouth, Ohio did that on a couple thousand feet of their flood wall. (And those really are worth seeing.) http://www.ohiorivertourism.org/murals.html One of the problems is that the Mexicans apparently know what ladders are so without sufficient to "man" the wall it can't do much to prevent people crossing the wall... Hadrian's wall was believed to have a manning of something like 756 permanently stationed on the wall itself, about 10 per mile, or so, and there were additional forts" that were estimated to require 1000 - 1500 troops per fort. The Israeli wall, I believe, is manned by soldiers who shoot those who attempt to cross illegally. Will the U.S. be shooting Mexicans? cheers, John B. |
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Something I read in the News
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Something I read in the News
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 22:55:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 12/18/2018 8:34 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:18:27 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote: Much Deleted Well, I think this issue is extremely complex. Some salient points: First, the U.S. is a nation of immigrants. During most of its history it needed to actively import people to make use of the huge amount of virgin land, to do farm work, to build railroads, to keep the factories running. That's how and why my grandparents came here. Yes, that is certainly true. BUT your ancestors didn't believe that they could come to the "New World" and go immediately into government funded housing, get essentially free medical case and even receive money "for not working"? I don't think that's what's usually happening. https://immigrationforum.org/article...blic-benefits/ As Will Rogers said, "all I know is what I read in the newspaper" See: https://tinyurl.com/y93g28cf It's still true that lots of businesses - agriculture and everything else, from lawn care to manufacturing - want cheap labor. There must be thousands of businesses owned by people all across the political spectrum who depend on people with questionable papers who are willing to work for less. At one time Mexican workers has some sort of "green card" that allowed them to enter the U.S. and work as seasonal workers. AFAIK, that's still the system. I've worked with PhD professors here on Green Cards. They were (and maybe still are) legal permanent residents, permitted to work here. But nearly half of illegals are people who entered the country legally (for example, with student visas) and when their time was up, simply chose to stay and remain under the radar. Those people are rather difficult to find. And the biggest wall on earth won't change how they got here. My wife's younger brother's son did his Masters in the U.S. and wanted to immigrate. No dice says the Immigrations. He married a Thai girl that was also attending school in the U.S. and after a civil ceremony in the U.S. he brought his bride home to Thailand where they had the full monte. I was talking to him while they were here he told me that he and his wife plan to have a baby, born in the states, before their student visa expires, which will allow he and his wife to get a visa to stay and take care of this new citizen. Which they did. But he is a "good guy" and using family money he opened a business in the U.S. and both he and his wife were studying U.S. history and government with the intent of applying for citizenship as soon as possible. My point is that these two foreigners knew, and planned, exactly what to do and who to talk to and what to say, to stay in the U.S. And I would suggest that most immigrants, whether legal or illegal probably also know. Last year we had a local guy like that who was caught. His case was complex and I don't recall all the details - he came here legally, married a U.S. citizen, later got divorced, tried for years (decades?) to get the right to stay, was supposedly on that path with help from our congressman, thought he was on his way to his day in court but instead was suddenly seized by ICE. He was a very well respected businessman and a real asset to the community, but he's gone. And I think for most of those people, it's not a question of "no work so no food" policies chasing them home. They work and work hard. I read a couple articles last year about tomatoes rotting in fields because the people who used to pick them were now too afraid to work. The farm owner said he couldn't get "regular Americans" to do the work. They wouldn't put up with the job for more than one day. As above, when I lived in California, there was some sort of hurrah about seasonal workers and although they had some sort of papers to legally enter the U.S. to work in the harvests this practice was halted and the newspaper said that USians who were on relief would harvest the crops. Again, according to the newspaper, on the first day there was a pretty good turn out, on the second day about half as many showed up and by the third practically nobody came. The Paper pointed out that the difference in income between working and being on relief was something like $2 a day more to pick lettuce, or whatever.... In the hot sun? All day? There's also the bit about asylum. I once helped a foreign guy get asylum, albeit unwittingly. (He asked me to write him a letter inviting him to visit. When he landed, he applied for and received asylum.) Because of its history, the US has laws allowing people to seek asylum. I suppose some might want to go back in time and stop those laws from being written. But odds are they were logical when written, and are probably fairly logical now. I do believe that the U.S. carries "asylum" to a rather ridiculous extreme. Some years ago there was a furor here in the news paper about a fellow who fled Thailand for the U.S. seeking asylum... for insulting the king. Now, insulting the king has been against the law in Thailand from the earliest days that Thailand existed and the law is spelled out in sufficient detail that one, likely, can't transgress the law unknowingly. So here is an individual who knowing violated an age old law in Thailand and is granted asylum in the U.S.? I don't know much about U.S. asylum laws. The guy I helped was fleeing communism, and I really didn't have a lot of contact with him after he landed and applied for asylum. But in his case, he didn't go on welfare. He got jobs painting trucks and doing roofing, IIRC. Then he got a decent job due to his EE degree. He did well enough and rose high enough that he represented his international communications company in London for many years. He and his wife now own a ranch in Colorado where he's retired from engineering. Hardly a public housing case. My Hungarian friend had several years of trials and tribulations in Europe before he finally was able to get with an international oil company that allowed him to move to the U.S. The big influx from Central America certainly contains many people who are literally fleeing for their lives. From what I've read, some of that is precipitated by past U.S. policies in Central America. And I'll note that one relative of mine works for an agency that supports refugees in some ways. There are horrible stories to hear. Yes, as long as you only hear one side of the story. You're probably right. I ought to get in touch with the gang-raping soldiers and see what those women did to deserve it... Also, I think there's little comparison between U.S. and Thailand. This is a huge country with an enormous economy and lots of prosperity. There's a long, long land border with Mexico, a much poorer country. That means there's a lot of motivation to sneak across that border and serious difficulty preventing the crossings. "a long, long land border"? Thailand has 4,863 km (3,021 miles) of land boundaries with 4 countries, of which the three with the longest borders have significantly lower standards of living and where people are almost literally standing in line to get to the land with the golden pagodas. The U.S., in contrast has 1,954 miles bordering a country with a significantly lower standard of living :-) What's the income disparity on the two sides of that border? Between the U.S. and Mexico, it's roughly four to one. And for a lot of the Guatemalans, it's more a matter of life and death. Which is not to say Trump's wall would really work. It would stop those walking across, probably a small percentage. Until, perhaps, the ladder was invented. Just from reading the newspaper there seem to have been tunnels dug, airplanes and even boats, to allow drug runners and of course illegal workers to cross the border. Overall, it's a complicated problem. America is filled with know- nothings who think every problem is easy. But this problem would be tricky even if millions of people didn't make millions of dollars by hiring illegal immigrants. Those people - many of whom are well connected politically - will stand in the way of any fierce enforcement against firms that employ these people. And it's not even necessarily big firms. When you need your grass cut and you check the bulletin board at the grocery store, you call around for the best price. You don't say "Oh, and let me see your citizenship papers." Hell, it recently came out that Trump has had (and probably still has) illegal immigrants working for him. - Frank Krygowski Rather like the highway speed laws. You got 'em but you don't obey 'em. Over the years I have lived for a number of years in Singapore where laws are rigidly enforced ... I've read about a lot of that enforcement. But there's no way that's going to be accepted here in America. Whether it's good or bad, it's fact. In the military I found that it isn't the law that people most object to it is anything different. I was in a squadron that was the best in everything, venereal diseases, AWOL rate, court martial, etc. Then one day a new Colonel was assigned with, obviously, orders to sort that bunch out. The following Monday notices appeared on all bulletin board listing all possible offences and the punishment. More then 5 minutes late to work - 7 days in the brig, etc. You never heard so much weeping and complaining, but you know, in a month or so it became normal to get to work on time and nobody seemed to remember what life was like back in the bad old days. I do think that those who hire illegal immigrants should somehow be stopped. But as usual, it's not as easy as it sounds. cheers, John B. |
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Something I read in the News
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 21:01:34 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:18:27 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote: And it's not even necessarily big firms. When you need your grass cut and you check the bulletin board at the grocery store, you call around for the best price. You don't say "Oh, and let me see your citizenship papers." Hell, it recently came out that Trump has had (and probably still has) illegal immigrants working for him. - Frank Krygowski It's much worse than that. My father used to own a lingerie manufactory in Smog Angeles. He would hire as best he could from the constantly churning labor pool moving back and forth between the aerospace and the garment district. Of course, illegal aliens were mixed in with the legal immigrants. It was actually fairly easy to tell. At the time (about 50 years ago) he was faced with the problem of how to deal with having as many as 10 individual workers using the same identical social security number. So, he walked across the street, where the offices of the Calif Unemployment Dept was located and asked for help. He was told to do nothing, and to never ask a worker to prove that they were legally in the USA. Huh? Apparently, the privacy laws are more important than dealing with illegal aliens. I verified this advice by independently asking the same questions. We could not legally ask a worker to prove that they were in the USA legally. When my father had a stroke and I temporarily took over the business in 1986, nothing had changed. This worked out nicely for employers, where this policy allows them the claim that they had no way to know that they were hiring an illegal alien (i.e. plausible denial). Fortunately, this changed recently under Trump where it is now possible to verify green cards and immigration status: https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/new-e-verifygov-website-user-friendly-source-verify-employment-eligibility https://www.e-verify.gov https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central If Prez Trump still has illegal aliens on his payroll, he probably didn't bother to check their status since E-Verify checks are voluntary to employers. https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/about-form-i-9/e-verify-and-form-i-9 A good friend used to run am illegal machine shop somewhere in L.A. a bit earlier. He had three "Screw Machines" in his garage. Screw machines are automated lathes, from before the modern CNC machines became common, so the operators mainly watched the machine and gauged an occasional finished part. He employed Mexican women and said that they didn't come to work hung over, they didn't want off early on Saturday to watch the game, and they were happy with a half hour lunch break :-) cheers, John B. |
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Something I read in the News
On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 5:34:29 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:18:27 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 1:56:23 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote: I wonder why the U.S. doesn't follow Thailand in matter of illegal immigrants. Here the only individuals that qualify for government assistance of any sort are citizens , or, in some cases, legal workers who pay taxes. Illegal immigrants are liable to jail terms but are usually just extradited to their home country. AND, those who employ illegal workers are liable to a 1 year jail term and a large fine. I'm not sure about it but Thai law usually assigns one penalty per crime committed, i.e., two illegal workers equals two years and double fine, etc. While finding that one will be hanged in a fortnight is said to concentrates the mind wonderfully I also find that "no food unless you earn it" tends to ensure that most people will be gainfully employed. Well, I think this issue is extremely complex. Some salient points: First, the U.S. is a nation of immigrants. During most of its history it needed to actively import people to make use of the huge amount of virgin land, to do farm work, to build railroads, to keep the factories running. That's how and why my grandparents came here. Yes, that is certainly true. BUT your ancestors didn't believe that they could come to the "New World" and go immediately into government funded housing, get essentially free medical case and even receive money "for not working"? For what it is worth, my ancestors (on my father's side) paid their way to the "New World" by agreeing to work some years as indentured workers. It's still true that lots of businesses - agriculture and everything else, from lawn care to manufacturing - want cheap labor. There must be thousands of businesses owned by people all across the political spectrum who depend on people with questionable papers who are willing to work for less. At one time Mexican workers has some sort of "green card" that allowed them to enter the U.S. and work as seasonal workers. And I think for most of those people, it's not a question of "no work so no food" policies chasing them home. They work and work hard. I read a couple articles last year about tomatoes rotting in fields because the people who used to pick them were now too afraid to work. The farm owner said he couldn't get "regular Americans" to do the work. They wouldn't put up with the job for more than one day. As above, when I lived in California, there was some sort of hurrah about seasonal workers and although they had some sort of papers to legally enter the U.S. to work in the harvests this practice was halted and the newspaper said that USians who were on relief would harvest the crops. Again, according to the newspaper, on the first day there was a pretty good turn out, on the second day about half as many showed up and by the third practically nobody came. The Paper pointed out that the difference in income between working and being on relief was something like $2 a day more to pick lettuce, or whatever.... In the hot sun? All day? There's also the bit about asylum. I once helped a foreign guy get asylum, albeit unwittingly. (He asked me to write him a letter inviting him to visit. When he landed, he applied for and received asylum.) Because of its history, the US has laws allowing people to seek asylum. I suppose some might want to go back in time and stop those laws from being written. But odds are they were logical when written, and are probably fairly logical now. I do believe that the U.S. carries "asylum" to a rather ridiculous extreme. Some years ago there was a furor here in the news paper about a fellow who fled Thailand for the U.S. seeking asylum... for insulting the king. Now, insulting the king has been against the law in Thailand from the earliest days that Thailand existed and the law is spelled out in sufficient detail that one, likely, can't transgress the law unknowingly. So here is an individual who knowing violated an age old law in Thailand and is granted asylum in the U.S.? The big influx from Central America certainly contains many people who are literally fleeing for their lives. From what I've read, some of that is precipitated by past U.S. policies in Central America. And I'll note that one relative of mine works for an agency that supports refugees in some ways. There are horrible stories to hear. Yes, as long as you only hear one side of the story. Rather like Somalia where first one side slaughtered the other side and then when the other side gained power it killed members of the first side. And then when the first side became dominant... Rather like "Who's on first". Also, I think there's little comparison between U.S. and Thailand. This is a huge country with an enormous economy and lots of prosperity. There's a long, long land border with Mexico, a much poorer country. That means there's a lot of motivation to sneak across that border and serious difficulty preventing the crossings. "a long, long land border"? Thailand has 4,863 km (3,021 miles) of land boundaries with 4 countries, of which the three with the longest borders have significantly lower standards of living and where people are almost literally standing in line to get to the land with the golden pagodas. The U.S., in contrast has 1,954 miles bordering a country with a significantly lower standard of living :-) Which is not to say Trump's wall would really work. It would stop those walking across, probably a small percentage. Until, perhaps, the ladder was invented. Just from reading the newspaper there seem to have been tunnels dug, airplanes and even boats, to allow drug runners and of course illegal workers to cross the border. Overall, it's a complicated problem. America is filled with know- nothings who think every problem is easy. But this problem would be tricky even if millions of people didn't make millions of dollars by hiring illegal immigrants. Those people - many of whom are well connected politically - will stand in the way of any fierce enforcement against firms that employ these people. And it's not even necessarily big firms. When you need your grass cut and you check the bulletin board at the grocery store, you call around for the best price. You don't say "Oh, and let me see your citizenship papers." Hell, it recently came out that Trump has had (and probably still has) illegal immigrants working for him. - Frank Krygowski Rather like the highway speed laws. You got 'em but you don't obey 'em. Over the years I have lived for a number of years in Singapore where laws are rigidly enforced - S$1,000 fine for spitting on the sidewalk - there are no ghettos, employment is 97.9%, foreign workers are carefully controlled. There are about 1.4 million foreign workers versus about 6 million citizens. And you know? there are no "gated communities" and the citizens feel it safe to walk the street' (and people DON'T spit on the sidewalk :-). By, the way, talking about the law, the murder rate in Singapore is 0.32/100,000 population, Thailand where murders seem to be common is 3.24/100,000 and the "Land of Opportunity", the U.S. it is 5.35/100,000. cheers, John B. There still is a green card worker permit but why do so with some sleight limitations when you only have to walk across the border. I had several illegal friends when growing up but finally they moved out into the farming areas and got green cards. This is becoming harder now because these farm workers were really quite expensive since the farmers normally provided housing for the green card holders. So they are now being used for increasingly fewer crops as more and more automation is taking over farm planting, maintenance and harvesting. Even when I was a kid walnuts were harvested by machinery. Other like things were also treated in such a manner.. I'm told though I've never seen it that they also have automated apple harvesting. Grains are all automated. Tomatoes are hand harvested and this is very heavy work. Try growing the kind of tomatoes you find in supermarkets in your backyard. Unless you know the technique you just can't do it. |
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Something I read in the News
On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 6:13:59 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 5:02:48 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: On 12/18/2018 5:57 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 3:08:02 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: On 12/18/2018 2:41 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 11:40:46 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: On 12/18/2018 12:18 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 1:56:23 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote: I wonder why the U.S. doesn't follow Thailand in matter of illegal immigrants. Here the only individuals that qualify for government assistance of any sort are citizens , or, in some cases, legal workers who pay taxes. Illegal immigrants are liable to jail terms but are usually just extradited to their home country. AND, those who employ illegal workers are liable to a 1 year jail term and a large fine. I'm not sure about it but Thai law usually assigns one penalty per crime committed, i.e., two illegal workers equals two years and double fine, etc. While finding that one will be hanged in a fortnight is said to concentrates the mind wonderfully I also find that "no food unless you earn it" tends to ensure that most people will be gainfully employed. Well, I think this issue is extremely complex. Some salient points: First, the U.S. is a nation of immigrants. During most of its history it needed to actively import people to make use of the huge amount of virgin land, to do farm work, to build railroads, to keep the factories running. That's how and why my grandparents came here. It's still true that lots of businesses - agriculture and everything else, from lawn care to manufacturing - want cheap labor. There must be thousands of businesses owned by people all across the political spectrum who depend on people with questionable papers who are willing to work for less. And I think for most of those people, it's not a question of "no work so no food" policies chasing them home. They work and work hard. I read a couple articles last year about tomatoes rotting in fields because the people who used to pick them were now too afraid to work. The farm owner said he couldn't get "regular Americans" to do the work. They wouldn't put up with the job for more than one day. There's also the bit about asylum. I once helped a foreign guy get asylum, albeit unwittingly. (He asked me to write him a letter inviting him to visit. When he landed, he applied for and received asylum.) Because of its history, the US has laws allowing people to seek asylum. I suppose some might want to go back in time and stop those laws from being written. But odds are they were logical when written, and are probably fairly logical now. The big influx from Central America certainly contains many people who are literally fleeing for their lives. From what I've read, some of that is precipitated by past U.S. policies in Central America. And I'll note that one relative of mine works for an agency that supports refugees in some ways. There are horrible stories to hear. |
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Something I read in the News
On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 7:19:15 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
So now we get the socialist ignorance from a teacher. Who is surprised? Tell us one civilization that survived unlimited immigration. Tell us one country that survived socialism. Who was talking about unlimited immigration? Is that a concussion-triggered hallucination? Well by all means tell us what this "we are a country of immigrants" crap is. |
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