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[Frame question] Orbea Orca or Madone 5.9 ?



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 7th 05, 11:44 PM
Dan R H
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Default [Frame question] Orbea Orca or Madone 5.9 ?

I have an Orbea Starship carbon and a Trek 5900. Granted, my Orbea is alum
with carbon and your Orca is full carbon, I've heard of an Orca's chain stay
breaking. I'm sure Madones have had their problems as well. IMHO, I'd go
with the Madone. Trek has a great warranty (compared to the imported Orbea.
I'm assuming you're in the US)

BTW, I love my Orbea but for different reasons. Beautiful bike!

--
Dan Hertlein
http://danhertlein.com/
http://mixednutsband.com/
http://danhertlein.com/dansdrumpage.htm


"NetWiz" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dear all,

I've spent most of the day hunting the net on informations on those
bikes. While positive feedback is plenty for the trek madone 5.9
(everyone loves it), Orbea Orca's is another story. Some articles put
it above the trek, some put it under. Whatever, I need to make a choice
;-)

Practically, I'm a heavy rider (85 kgs), enjoying comfort on distances
in the 50-100kms range. I'm looking at longer distances too. I'm
planning to move my Ksyrium elites and Shimano group to the new frame.

So far, I'd be tempted to look at it and think they're the same
quality. Therefore the best design wins (and here Orbea wins all the
time over Trek).

Are there other feedbacks ? Any reason why I should prefer one vs the
other ?

Thanks !

NetWiz.



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  #12  
Old August 8th 05, 12:26 AM
Mike Jacoubowsky
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Default [Frame question] Orbea Orca or Madone 5.9 ?

I've spent most of the day hunting the net on informations on those
bikes. While positive feedback is plenty for the trek madone 5.9
(everyone loves it), Orbea Orca's is another story. Some articles put
it above the trek, some put it under. Whatever, I need to make a choice
;-)

Practically, I'm a heavy rider (85 kgs), enjoying comfort on distances
in the 50-100kms range. I'm looking at longer distances too. I'm
planning to move my Ksyrium elites and Shimano group to the new frame.

So far, I'd be tempted to look at it and think they're the same
quality. Therefore the best design wins (and here Orbea wins all the
time over Trek).


What the Madone has going for it is the company standing behind it- Trek has
*gradually* evolved the design from the original 5500, released in 1992.
Rather than throw out a design every three years for fashion reasons (yes,
that's really what most companies do), Trek designs almost entirely from a
standpoint of function. In fact, the present engineering team includes
people who go back to that first frame. That's almost unheard of in the
bicycle industry; a sense of continuity that dramatically reduces the chance
of producing something that fails in the field. It also, as mentioned, puts
the emphasis on function over style.

Trek also has an advantage over most others in that they build the frames
themselves, rather than contract it out to someone else (very rare in the
bicycle industry; most carbon frames are built by one of three facilities in
China & Taiwan). Presently, the advantage Chinese manufacturing has is
cost, while the advantage Trek has is technology. The chief technology
engineer at Trek tells me that, as long as they can keep a 3-4 year lead on
technology, they can remain competitive despite cost advantages overseas.
The tough part is maintaining that lead, since the Chinese can
reverse-engineer just about anything. The day Trek can't will mark the end
of their domestic carbon production, which is something they hope not to
see.

Do keep in mind that anything I say is to be regarded as highly-suspect,
since we're the largest Trek carbon-fiber road bike dealer in the US. :)

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"NetWiz" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dear all,

I've spent most of the day hunting the net on informations on those
bikes. While positive feedback is plenty for the trek madone 5.9
(everyone loves it), Orbea Orca's is another story. Some articles put
it above the trek, some put it under. Whatever, I need to make a choice
;-)

Practically, I'm a heavy rider (85 kgs), enjoying comfort on distances
in the 50-100kms range. I'm looking at longer distances too. I'm
planning to move my Ksyrium elites and Shimano group to the new frame.

So far, I'd be tempted to look at it and think they're the same
quality. Therefore the best design wins (and here Orbea wins all the
time over Trek).

Are there other feedbacks ? Any reason why I should prefer one vs the
other ?

Thanks !

NetWiz.



  #13  
Old August 8th 05, 12:31 AM
John Forrest Tomlinson
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Default [Frame question] Orbea Orca or Madone 5.9 ?

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:26:20 GMT, Bob wrote:

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 17:09:53 -0500, BobT wrote:


Except for fit, please explain how road frames differ in comfort?


One major factor is the amount of high frequency vibration (road buzz)
transmitted throught the frame. Composite frames have less of this.


Where did you learn about this? I don't believe it.

JT

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  #14  
Old August 8th 05, 12:38 AM
Fred Barney
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Default Orbea Orca or Madone 5.9 ?

Sandy says...

After extensive comparison testing, all European magazines report that the
Orbea is less forgiving of clumsy, pudgy guys who keep falling over.


Huh? I thought Jan rode Giant?
  #15  
Old August 8th 05, 01:16 AM
BobT
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Default [Frame question] Orbea Orca or Madone 5.9 ?


"Bob" wrote in message
...
It would say that it wasn't quite as lively as the CR-1 (to scary light
if
you ask me) or the Orca, but I would say that the latter was not as
comfortable as I wanted.


What does lively mean?


The CR-1 felt very light (accelerated quickly), and had a spring-like feel
when climbing. It also seems to be a fast steering bike as well (meaning
the bike reacted quickly to user input).

Bob


So light weight is good. I agree. So for this attribute, all you need to do
is weight the frame? This is probably more accurate than riding it and
trying to judge a 0.5% or at most 1.0% difference in the weight of rider
plus bike by feeling how well it accellerates. If I drink a liter of sports
drink (or don't) before a long ride this is 1000 gm extra weight!

What do you think the spring-like feel is from? Do you mean what you feel
in your feet? Is the springy feel from bottom bracket flex? I thought that
was bad, although this has been discussed at length on this NG (even
currently). Some would say that it doesn't matter whether there is bottom
bracket flex as long as its not bad enough to make the chain rub on the
derailleur when you stomp.

Please help me understand the differences between my Orbea Onix and an Orca
or Trek Madone 5.9

BobT


  #16  
Old August 8th 05, 03:47 AM
Mike Jacoubowsky
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Default [Frame question] Orbea Orca or Madone 5.9 ?

One major factor is the amount of high frequency vibration (road buzz)
transmitted throught the frame. Composite frames have less of this.


Where did you learn about this? I don't believe it.



Nobody questions that carbon-fiber frames sound different, and nobody
questions that different materials "carry a tune" (resonate?) for different
lengths of time. At least I don't think anybody questions that; certainly
not musicians. And yet many question that a given material will transmit
more or less road buzz than another. As if material of construction is
entirely irrelevant. I have no question that carbon-fiber damps vibration
more readily than other materials that frames are made of; to me, the
question is more the degree to which it matters.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"John Forrest Tomlinson" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:26:20 GMT, Bob wrote:

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 17:09:53 -0500, BobT wrote:


Except for fit, please explain how road frames differ in comfort?


One major factor is the amount of high frequency vibration (road buzz)
transmitted throught the frame. Composite frames have less of this.


Where did you learn about this? I don't believe it.

JT

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  #17  
Old August 8th 05, 03:56 AM
John Forrest Tomlinson
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Default [Frame question] Orbea Orca or Madone 5.9 ?

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 02:47:23 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:

As if material of construction is
entirely irrelevant. I have no question that carbon-fiber damps vibration
more readily than other materials that frames are made of; to me, the
question is more the degree to which it matters.


It seems to me it's does it matter at all. That is, is the damping
possibly large enough to have any effect on the human body. I don't
believe it at all.

JT

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  #18  
Old August 8th 05, 04:43 AM
jim beam
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Default [Frame question] Orbea Orca or Madone 5.9 ?

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 02:47:23 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:


As if material of construction is
entirely irrelevant. I have no question that carbon-fiber damps vibration
more readily than other materials that frames are made of; to me, the
question is more the degree to which it matters.



It seems to me it's does it matter at all. That is, is the damping
possibly large enough to have any effect on the human body. I don't
believe it at all.


it's not a matter of faith - it's a matter of intrumentation. if the
rate of transmission is reduced, as is unarguably the case with
composites, so is the acceleration and therefore the force tranmitted to
whatever you touch your bike with. having taken the trouble to buy, fit
& ride no less than 5 carbon forks into the same steel frame so i could
make reasonable comparison with the original steel fork, even without
instrumentation, i can tell you that all 5 carbon forks transmit
noticably less road buzz than the steel.

in my experience, the folk that make the biggest negative noise about
carbon forks are the ones that either haven't bothered to try them or
couldn't tell the difference between sushi & fried chicken.


JT

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  #19  
Old August 8th 05, 05:41 AM
41
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Default Orbea Orca or Madone 5.9 ?


Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
One major factor is the amount of high frequency vibration (road buzz)
transmitted throught the frame. Composite frames have less of this.


Where did you learn about this? I don't believe it.



Nobody questio ns that carbon-fiber frames sound different, and nobody
questions that different materials "carry a tune" (resonate?) for different
lengths of time. At least I don't think anybody questions that; certainly
not musicians.


How many musical instruments are played with pneumatic tires in them
and someone's fat ass sitting on top of them?

This whole topic has been done to death in a recent thread he Carbon
Fiber Seat Stays = Better Ride?
http://tinyurl.com/dn7bs

All the relevant facts, the science, and the irrelevant BS were
detailed ad nauseum in that thread. Nobody need post anything more on
it in this thread because it was all already said back then, 341 times.
Check for yourselves.

As to Trek Madone 5.9 vs Orbea Orca: in a recent review of the Madone
by Bicycling magazine, after 25 hours of riding, the carbon forks
developed a 3 inch crack. The reviewers said they weren't worried,
because Trek had a great warranty policy. In a recent thread by an
otherwise happy Orbea owner, not sure which model, the fellow remarked
that he didn't think the frame could clear a 23mm tire, don't even talk
about a 25. I don't know what the clearances are on the Trek, but not
even being able to clear a 23 makes for a rather unversatile machine.

  #20  
Old August 8th 05, 11:51 AM
John Forrest Tomlinson
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Default [Frame question] Orbea Orca or Madone 5.9 ?

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 20:43:07 -0700, jim beam
wrote:



it's not a matter of faith - it's a matter of intrumentation. if the
rate of transmission is reduced, as is unarguably the case with
composites, so is the acceleration and therefore the force tranmitted to
whatever you touch your bike with. having taken the trouble to buy, fit
& ride no less than 5 carbon forks into the same steel frame so i could
make reasonable comparison with the original steel fork, even without
instrumentation, i can tell you that all 5 carbon forks transmit
noticably less road buzz than the steel.


But forks are not trusses and behave completely differently than
frames in terms of vertical flex so you troublesome high-cost
experiement says nothing about frames.

JT

PS -- on your fork test, I assume you ran it blind somehow. No?
Hmmm.

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